M
Malenfant
Guest
Yes, and it will result in nice tartan fireworks when you break up
Escape Velocity
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
M
Malenfant
Guest
Yes, and it will result in nice tartan fireworks when you break up
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
Gee. Let me see. You like Classic Traveller. I like Classic Traveller. With me so far?
OK, so why not continue THINKING in the Classic Traveller mindset and framework, shall we? Ask yourself, how would LBB3 have handled this?
Classic Traveller LBB would have handled it the one way it knew how: A Planetary/Terrain Encounter Table using a 2d6 roll:
Here is a very gross example:
Gas Giant, Upper Atmosphere Event Table
(Roll once for every 12 hours spent):
2-9 No Encounter
10-11 Moderate Atmospheric Turbulence
** Make up some boat-rocking problems here
12 Giant Cloud Storm!
** Up to the GM just how deadly they want to make GG cloudstorms. As a GM, if I secretly rolled this, I would FIRST ask the Ship Astrogator to make his Skill Check. If he succeeds, GM tells Astrogator: "You are a diligent and alert Navigator. You just detected (early) on your sensors that a gigantic-sized cloudstorm will be heading towards your ship in a matter of a few hours. Time to tell the Pilot to get the hell out of there, OKAY?"
If the ship's Navigator fails his roll, I don't tell him anything until it's too late. The cloudstorm beats the crap out of the ship. But maybe I will then allow the Pilot a chance to roll his skill to successfully steer the ship OUT of the cloudstorm. Also other considerations come into play, such as factoring in the G-maneuver ability of that ship. A 1G ship caught in the cloudstorm is a dead bugger. An agile 6G ship will have a lot better chance to wriggle free, dontcha think?
That's how I would handle it, S4. Do notice that in the majority of the time (a roll of 2-9) GG skimming will be largely uneventful. My table is just an example. It in no way indicates the realistic CHANCE that a Gas Giant cloudstorm will actually exist or be encountered. Any GM could easily have changed this Table to read like:
"On a roll of 2 to 11, nothing happens while you refuel"
"On a roll of 12, a huge Jupiterian Cloudstorm sneaks up on your ship and bitchslaps it like a ragdoll and breaks it into 2000 pieces. Game over. Start up new characters."
In any case, it's a simple solution. Classic Traveller style. How severe and how frequent you want to impose these rolls and events on your players is up to the individual GM.
The main point: Every time they skim a Gas Giant, remind the Players that there will always be SOME small chance (based on a dice roll) of a disastrous event slapping them hard in the butt. That's the risk they take for trying to get free fuel.
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
Gee. Let me see. You like Classic Traveller. I like Classic Traveller. With me so far?
OK, so why not continue THINKING in the Classic Traveller mindset and framework, shall we? Ask yourself, how would LBB3 have handled this?
Classic Traveller LBB would have handled it the one way it knew how: A Planetary/Terrain Encounter Table using a 2d6 roll:
Here is a very gross example:
Gas Giant, Upper Atmosphere Event Table
(Roll once for every 12 hours spent):
2-9 No Encounter
10-11 Moderate Atmospheric Turbulence
** Make up some boat-rocking problems here
12 Giant Cloud Storm!
** Up to the GM just how deadly they want to make GG cloudstorms. As a GM, if I secretly rolled this, I would FIRST ask the Ship Astrogator to make his Skill Check. If he succeeds, GM tells Astrogator: "You are a diligent and alert Navigator. You just detected (early) on your sensors that a gigantic-sized cloudstorm will be heading towards your ship in a matter of a few hours. Time to tell the Pilot to get the hell out of there, OKAY?"
If the ship's Navigator fails his roll, I don't tell him anything until it's too late. The cloudstorm beats the crap out of the ship. But maybe I will then allow the Pilot a chance to roll his skill to successfully steer the ship OUT of the cloudstorm. Also other considerations come into play, such as factoring in the G-maneuver ability of that ship. A 1G ship caught in the cloudstorm is a dead bugger. An agile 6G ship will have a lot better chance to wriggle free, dontcha think?
That's how I would handle it, S4. Do notice that in the majority of the time (a roll of 2-9) GG skimming will be largely uneventful. My table is just an example. It in no way indicates the realistic CHANCE that a Gas Giant cloudstorm will actually exist or be encountered. Any GM could easily have changed this Table to read like:
"On a roll of 2 to 11, nothing happens while you refuel"
"On a roll of 12, a huge Jupiterian Cloudstorm sneaks up on your ship and bitchslaps it like a ragdoll and breaks it into 2000 pieces. Game over. Start up new characters."
In any case, it's a simple solution. Classic Traveller style. How severe and how frequent you want to impose these rolls and events on your players is up to the individual GM.
The main point: Every time they skim a Gas Giant, remind the Players that there will always be SOME small chance (based on a dice roll) of a disastrous event slapping them hard in the butt. That's the risk they take for trying to get free fuel.
Space Cadet
SOC-12
How about some giant flying predator thinking the starship is food?
Space Cadet
SOC-12
How about some giant flying predator thinking the starship is food?
That one would have caught me by suprise. I think that that would make a good result for a roll of exactly 2 in the above LBB3-like table. One minute you a flying through the atmosphere congratulating each other on how calm the air is, and the next minute, a floating jelly is sucking space barnacles off of your hull.
Of course, that means another sub-table.
That one would have caught me by suprise. I think that that would make a good result for a roll of exactly 2 in the above LBB3-like table. One minute you a flying through the atmosphere congratulating each other on how calm the air is, and the next minute, a floating jelly is sucking space barnacles off of your hull.
Of course, that means another sub-table.
Space Cadet
SOC-12
I was thinking more of the winged variety rather than a pathetic gas bag that floats with the wind.
Space Cadet
SOC-12
I was thinking more of the winged variety rather than a pathetic gas bag that floats with the wind.
T
The Shaman
Guest
And now we have a clue why all those Empress Maravas, with their 2G drives, are running around out there. . .
Thought-provoking stuff, S4.
T
The Shaman
Guest
And now we have a clue why all those Empress Maravas, with their 2G drives, are running around out there. . .
Thought-provoking stuff, S4.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Good thinking, Mal. I like it.
Maybe we should put together a well thought out and complete encounter chart that CT players can use when skimming GG's.
Heck, everybody here in the CT forum is invited to participate. Let's jut make a nice, good, easy chart for GG skimming.
I think: 1. That Pilot Skill and Navigation Skill should play a part as DMs on the chart. The Nav because of his interpretation of sensor readings used in is flight plan of the best, safest approach to and through the GG. The Pilot because it's his skill that's going to get the ship through.
2. The book says it takes 8 hours to skimm a GG.
I'm thinking it should be a variable time.
How about: Time to Skim GG: 2D +3 Hours
Use Pilot skill and Nav skill as -DMs on that time throw so that the average time is 8 hours (average of Pilot-1 and Navigation-1).
But, the rock bottom time to refuel can never be lower than 1 hr per 100 tons of the ship's displacement. So, a 400 ton vessel could never take less than 4 hours.
Shall we get started making this chart?
Anybody up for that?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Good thinking, Mal. I like it.
Maybe we should put together a well thought out and complete encounter chart that CT players can use when skimming GG's.
Heck, everybody here in the CT forum is invited to participate. Let's jut make a nice, good, easy chart for GG skimming.
I think: 1. That Pilot Skill and Navigation Skill should play a part as DMs on the chart. The Nav because of his interpretation of sensor readings used in is flight plan of the best, safest approach to and through the GG. The Pilot because it's his skill that's going to get the ship through.
2. The book says it takes 8 hours to skimm a GG.
I'm thinking it should be a variable time.
How about: Time to Skim GG: 2D +3 Hours
Use Pilot skill and Nav skill as -DMs on that time throw so that the average time is 8 hours (average of Pilot-1 and Navigation-1).
But, the rock bottom time to refuel can never be lower than 1 hr per 100 tons of the ship's displacement. So, a 400 ton vessel could never take less than 4 hours.
Shall we get started making this chart?
Anybody up for that?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Riiight! I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Makes a lot of sense to me.
I like it.
With the grav-compensation thing too, what we'll have is ships tending to go the same speed (or, closer to the same speed).
Before, they'd zip around at their full G rating. Now, they'll go as fast as is comfortable for the crew.
So, in a game, if the players pick up a ship on the sensors moving at 3Gs, and the ship is not performing combat maneuvers, chances are that's a 5G vessel (pushing 3Gs of thrust and compensating with 2Gs).
Many of the 1G ships they see might surprise the PCs if combat is entered into with one of them--it might be a 3G vessel that will only go to 3Gs when the crew is strapped down for combat maneuvers.
Also, think of the boarding implications. You've got boarders and your vessel will do 3Gs? Then, start doing 3Gs and watch your boarders zip around the corridors.
I like all this.
I like it all a lot.
-S4
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Riiight! I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Makes a lot of sense to me.
I like it.
With the grav-compensation thing too, what we'll have is ships tending to go the same speed (or, closer to the same speed).
Before, they'd zip around at their full G rating. Now, they'll go as fast as is comfortable for the crew.
So, in a game, if the players pick up a ship on the sensors moving at 3Gs, and the ship is not performing combat maneuvers, chances are that's a 5G vessel (pushing 3Gs of thrust and compensating with 2Gs).
Many of the 1G ships they see might surprise the PCs if combat is entered into with one of them--it might be a 3G vessel that will only go to 3Gs when the crew is strapped down for combat maneuvers.
Also, think of the boarding implications. You've got boarders and your vessel will do 3Gs? Then, start doing 3Gs and watch your boarders zip around the corridors.
I like all this.
I like it all a lot.
-S4
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Aw fer cryin...
I just trashed my post <sigh>
OK, from memory as best I can...
I think it should be based on the longer of two rates, the purification plant processing time (for purified) or the fuel scoops intake rate (for unpurified). And dependant on the amount of fuel wanted.
It should not be random. A little variable perhaps based on the suitability of the operation. And the hull and drives should factor in too.
The roll for the operation should be Pilot with DMs for maneuver Gs vs local Gs. For simplicity I'd probably call Large GGs 2G at high skim altitude and 4G at deep dive altitude, and Small GGs 1G at high skim altitude and 2G at deep dive atlitude.
Something like:
HG Unstreamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships cannot survive either high skim or deep dive operations.
HG Partially Streamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships can attempt high skim operations with some added risk. They cannot survive deep dive operations.
HG Streamlined (and B2 Streamlined) ships can attempt high skim operations with normal risks and they may attempt deep dive operations with some added risk.
High Skim Operations:
Fuel Processing is at standard rates.
(I'll need to recall the table if I can, or rebuild it from scratch)
Deep Dive Operations:
Fuel Processing is at double standard rates.
(Same table as above but DMs for extra risks)
-------
I also had some earlier thoughts on this subject, posted here a few years back, they follow for some more ideas...
I'm not sure it's what T20 is using but to quote FF&S "Many spacecraft have contra-grav lifters as fuel-efficient means of landing and taking off... CG lifters do not provide thrust and so cannot physically lift a craft or vehicle. Instead they neutralize most of the gravitational attraction... This, combined with atmospheric pressure, will provide buoyancy in very dense atmospheres and so allow the craft to float at low altitudes..."
Given that, I'd expect the atmospheric pressure would provide buoyancy at the ideal density for skimming. Still a small GG will likely require 1G of thrust and a slingshot run to escape and a large GG would need 2G with a slingshot escape. Personally I'd double these to be safe in case of complications (see below) but they should make good enough rough figures for a game.
Some of my troubles with/for GG refueling:
Pressure Pocket - Negative or Positive (relative) either dropping you or bouncing you violently several kilometers (?) in seconds. Besides the unpleasent g forces from the ride you're either out of your skimming zone and have to go back down or you've fallen much deeper into the gravity well and potentially are now surrounded by much denser atmosphere (what is the crush depth for a starship relative to a gas giant atmosphere? or an ocean?)
Storm Cell - Similar to the above but the choice is yours to go around, over or under it, or take your chances riding through it.
Radiation - How hot can you stand it in a Free-Trader or a Scout? How long can you afford to hang out there and just how far does it reach?
Corrosion - Some of those GG's might be unfriendly to hull material, even regular GG atmosphere at high velocity might be hard on your paint job.
Suitability - Not all GG are fit for skimming, and even those that are will require a purifier if you like reliable jumps.
Remoteness - Most GG will probably require a week of in-system travel from the main world so as a Merchant I'd be looking for something closer, an icy body in a belt or the worlds own hydro, unless the locals have laws about pirating their water. Of course if it's the only place in the system to refuel or you're just passing through that's another story.
speaking of pirates
Pirates - At least they used to like hiding out in and/or near GG's waiting for vulnerable (i.e. low on fuel) Merchants to jump.
I just trashed my post <sigh>
OK, from memory as best I can...
I think it should be based on the longer of two rates, the purification plant processing time (for purified) or the fuel scoops intake rate (for unpurified). And dependant on the amount of fuel wanted.
It should not be random. A little variable perhaps based on the suitability of the operation. And the hull and drives should factor in too.
The roll for the operation should be Pilot with DMs for maneuver Gs vs local Gs. For simplicity I'd probably call Large GGs 2G at high skim altitude and 4G at deep dive altitude, and Small GGs 1G at high skim altitude and 2G at deep dive atlitude.
Something like:
HG Unstreamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships cannot survive either high skim or deep dive operations.
HG Partially Streamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships can attempt high skim operations with some added risk. They cannot survive deep dive operations.
HG Streamlined (and B2 Streamlined) ships can attempt high skim operations with normal risks and they may attempt deep dive operations with some added risk.
High Skim Operations:
Fuel Processing is at standard rates.
(I'll need to recall the table if I can, or rebuild it from scratch)
Deep Dive Operations:
Fuel Processing is at double standard rates.
(Same table as above but DMs for extra risks)
-------
I also had some earlier thoughts on this subject, posted here a few years back, they follow for some more ideas...
I'm not sure it's what T20 is using but to quote FF&S "Many spacecraft have contra-grav lifters as fuel-efficient means of landing and taking off... CG lifters do not provide thrust and so cannot physically lift a craft or vehicle. Instead they neutralize most of the gravitational attraction... This, combined with atmospheric pressure, will provide buoyancy in very dense atmospheres and so allow the craft to float at low altitudes..."
Given that, I'd expect the atmospheric pressure would provide buoyancy at the ideal density for skimming. Still a small GG will likely require 1G of thrust and a slingshot run to escape and a large GG would need 2G with a slingshot escape. Personally I'd double these to be safe in case of complications (see below) but they should make good enough rough figures for a game.
Some of my troubles with/for GG refueling:
Pressure Pocket - Negative or Positive (relative) either dropping you or bouncing you violently several kilometers (?) in seconds. Besides the unpleasent g forces from the ride you're either out of your skimming zone and have to go back down or you've fallen much deeper into the gravity well and potentially are now surrounded by much denser atmosphere (what is the crush depth for a starship relative to a gas giant atmosphere? or an ocean?)
Storm Cell - Similar to the above but the choice is yours to go around, over or under it, or take your chances riding through it.
Radiation - How hot can you stand it in a Free-Trader or a Scout? How long can you afford to hang out there and just how far does it reach?
Corrosion - Some of those GG's might be unfriendly to hull material, even regular GG atmosphere at high velocity might be hard on your paint job.
Suitability - Not all GG are fit for skimming, and even those that are will require a purifier if you like reliable jumps.
Remoteness - Most GG will probably require a week of in-system travel from the main world so as a Merchant I'd be looking for something closer, an icy body in a belt or the worlds own hydro, unless the locals have laws about pirating their water. Of course if it's the only place in the system to refuel or you're just passing through that's another story.
speaking of pirates
Pirates - At least they used to like hiding out in and/or near GG's waiting for vulnerable (i.e. low on fuel) Merchants to jump.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Aw fer cryin...
I just trashed my post <sigh>
OK, from memory as best I can...
I think it should be based on the longer of two rates, the purification plant processing time (for purified) or the fuel scoops intake rate (for unpurified). And dependant on the amount of fuel wanted.
It should not be random. A little variable perhaps based on the suitability of the operation. And the hull and drives should factor in too.
The roll for the operation should be Pilot with DMs for maneuver Gs vs local Gs. For simplicity I'd probably call Large GGs 2G at high skim altitude and 4G at deep dive altitude, and Small GGs 1G at high skim altitude and 2G at deep dive atlitude.
Something like:
HG Unstreamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships cannot survive either high skim or deep dive operations.
HG Partially Streamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships can attempt high skim operations with some added risk. They cannot survive deep dive operations.
HG Streamlined (and B2 Streamlined) ships can attempt high skim operations with normal risks and they may attempt deep dive operations with some added risk.
High Skim Operations:
Fuel Processing is at standard rates.
(I'll need to recall the table if I can, or rebuild it from scratch)
Deep Dive Operations:
Fuel Processing is at double standard rates.
(Same table as above but DMs for extra risks)
-------
I also had some earlier thoughts on this subject, posted here a few years back, they follow for some more ideas...
I'm not sure it's what T20 is using but to quote FF&S "Many spacecraft have contra-grav lifters as fuel-efficient means of landing and taking off... CG lifters do not provide thrust and so cannot physically lift a craft or vehicle. Instead they neutralize most of the gravitational attraction... This, combined with atmospheric pressure, will provide buoyancy in very dense atmospheres and so allow the craft to float at low altitudes..."
Given that, I'd expect the atmospheric pressure would provide buoyancy at the ideal density for skimming. Still a small GG will likely require 1G of thrust and a slingshot run to escape and a large GG would need 2G with a slingshot escape. Personally I'd double these to be safe in case of complications (see below) but they should make good enough rough figures for a game.
Some of my troubles with/for GG refueling:
Pressure Pocket - Negative or Positive (relative) either dropping you or bouncing you violently several kilometers (?) in seconds. Besides the unpleasent g forces from the ride you're either out of your skimming zone and have to go back down or you've fallen much deeper into the gravity well and potentially are now surrounded by much denser atmosphere (what is the crush depth for a starship relative to a gas giant atmosphere? or an ocean?)
Storm Cell - Similar to the above but the choice is yours to go around, over or under it, or take your chances riding through it.
Radiation - How hot can you stand it in a Free-Trader or a Scout? How long can you afford to hang out there and just how far does it reach?
Corrosion - Some of those GG's might be unfriendly to hull material, even regular GG atmosphere at high velocity might be hard on your paint job.
Suitability - Not all GG are fit for skimming, and even those that are will require a purifier if you like reliable jumps.
Remoteness - Most GG will probably require a week of in-system travel from the main world so as a Merchant I'd be looking for something closer, an icy body in a belt or the worlds own hydro, unless the locals have laws about pirating their water. Of course if it's the only place in the system to refuel or you're just passing through that's another story.
speaking of pirates
Pirates - At least they used to like hiding out in and/or near GG's waiting for vulnerable (i.e. low on fuel) Merchants to jump.
I just trashed my post <sigh>
OK, from memory as best I can...
I think it should be based on the longer of two rates, the purification plant processing time (for purified) or the fuel scoops intake rate (for unpurified). And dependant on the amount of fuel wanted.
It should not be random. A little variable perhaps based on the suitability of the operation. And the hull and drives should factor in too.
The roll for the operation should be Pilot with DMs for maneuver Gs vs local Gs. For simplicity I'd probably call Large GGs 2G at high skim altitude and 4G at deep dive altitude, and Small GGs 1G at high skim altitude and 2G at deep dive atlitude.
Something like:
HG Unstreamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships cannot survive either high skim or deep dive operations.
HG Partially Streamlined (and some B2 Unstreamlined by ref judgement) ships can attempt high skim operations with some added risk. They cannot survive deep dive operations.
HG Streamlined (and B2 Streamlined) ships can attempt high skim operations with normal risks and they may attempt deep dive operations with some added risk.
High Skim Operations:
Fuel Processing is at standard rates.
(I'll need to recall the table if I can, or rebuild it from scratch)
Deep Dive Operations:
Fuel Processing is at double standard rates.
(Same table as above but DMs for extra risks)
-------
I also had some earlier thoughts on this subject, posted here a few years back, they follow for some more ideas...
I'm not sure it's what T20 is using but to quote FF&S "Many spacecraft have contra-grav lifters as fuel-efficient means of landing and taking off... CG lifters do not provide thrust and so cannot physically lift a craft or vehicle. Instead they neutralize most of the gravitational attraction... This, combined with atmospheric pressure, will provide buoyancy in very dense atmospheres and so allow the craft to float at low altitudes..."
Given that, I'd expect the atmospheric pressure would provide buoyancy at the ideal density for skimming. Still a small GG will likely require 1G of thrust and a slingshot run to escape and a large GG would need 2G with a slingshot escape. Personally I'd double these to be safe in case of complications (see below) but they should make good enough rough figures for a game.
Some of my troubles with/for GG refueling:
Pressure Pocket - Negative or Positive (relative) either dropping you or bouncing you violently several kilometers (?) in seconds. Besides the unpleasent g forces from the ride you're either out of your skimming zone and have to go back down or you've fallen much deeper into the gravity well and potentially are now surrounded by much denser atmosphere (what is the crush depth for a starship relative to a gas giant atmosphere? or an ocean?)
Storm Cell - Similar to the above but the choice is yours to go around, over or under it, or take your chances riding through it.
Radiation - How hot can you stand it in a Free-Trader or a Scout? How long can you afford to hang out there and just how far does it reach?
Corrosion - Some of those GG's might be unfriendly to hull material, even regular GG atmosphere at high velocity might be hard on your paint job.
Suitability - Not all GG are fit for skimming, and even those that are will require a purifier if you like reliable jumps.
Remoteness - Most GG will probably require a week of in-system travel from the main world so as a Merchant I'd be looking for something closer, an icy body in a belt or the worlds own hydro, unless the locals have laws about pirating their water. Of course if it's the only place in the system to refuel or you're just passing through that's another story.
speaking of pirates
Pirates - At least they used to like hiding out in and/or near GG's waiting for vulnerable (i.e. low on fuel) Merchants to jump.
