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Evolution of a Starport

I was going to agree on the safety issue, but then agan ... maybe not. Safety features tend to be in direct proportion to the perceived risk of an activity - that's why you don't get parachutes on airliners. The rules don't support the idea that manoeuvre drives are anything less than ultra-reliable, so maybe the idea of having to crash land a ship is simply inconceivable?

The short version being, no, 'realistically', Traveller starports should not have landing strips.
 
Originally posted by Valarian:
The backwash from a gravity module/drive will be pressure.
I think there are a few canon sources that say spacecraft grav thrusters throw heat... a lot of heat.
 
Originally posted by Hyphen:
"Canonical" images of starships show skids, not wheels, so not much taxiing there.
They could still "taxi" under grav lift though, no need for wheels, which would have to be massive to support/distribute the weight. I see the landing skids just for staying put and allowing the grav to be taken off-line and powered down.
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
ZEELAND (1602) E989AA9-E Hi C:4 A504 Im.

The combination of a veritable garden world, a huge population of child-like aliens, AND a charismatic dictatorship? The lack of a public starport makes perfect sense, as I can see these folks having developed a dislike of outsiders. One wonders if there is a Droyne covert presence on this world, trying to uplift the billions of Chirpers...
Possibly... Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora does annotate within it that Zeeland's sizable merchant fleet gets its repairs at the adjacent world of Channel (1503) B694557-E Ag Ni 912 Im.

Other notations in MT-Hard Times for Zeeland show that the Chirpers were noted for having "strangely developing webbed feet and hands there" before the Collapse. Being only 10% surface world and the rest being water...even at Size 9, thats a lot of folks (30x Billion Humaniti vs 20x Billion Chirpers) down there.

It is extremely possible that Zeeland's shipping fleet does get its work done elsewhere, like the B-class facility at Channel, and makes sense. Your notation of disliking outsiders and keeping the starport to the minimum for trade (E-class) reduces the time a starship would spend downside here as well, and force the starship owner-operators to look elsewhere for repairs and service. Definitely prevents "offworld contamination" into that society doesn't it?
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The Zeelanders are also noted in MT-HT as taking an extremely dim view of anyone messing with them or telling them that "they're not treating the Chirpers in anything less than a humane way".
 
Now that the spaceport is growing, the entire area has been hard surfaced which allows the painting of lines.

The reference I used was that gateway to the stars, Newcastle airport. The scale works much better now.

I'm still puzzling over what the berths should look like for Grav Vehicles - I think I'm going to go for sunken berths but at the moment it's just painted place-holders. Time also to knock down the main spaceport building and to make something in keeping with the increase in traffic that the larger landing area will be able to accomodate.

The 'non grav' landing area has been placed quite far away, I'll need to redo the landing pads there. There is also a separate parking area for shuttles, I might make a traditional airport building with sky bridges for passenger access

At the moment capacity is 12 starship (with grav drives)berths, and an open area that might hold what? 5 or 6 d200 ton ships? Parking bays for 5 shuttles and a landing area for say 6 VTOL non-grav drive space/starships. The area looks like it will need a lot more buidlings to look 'normal'. There have been lots of useful suggestions as to facilties so I'll use those to define the functions of the buildings.

Still not much to look at (Class E/D) but it has the ability to support the increased infrastructure now.

Ravs

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Originally posted by the Bromgrev:
I was going to agree on the safety issue, but then agan ... maybe not. Safety features tend to be in direct proportion to the perceived risk of an activity - that's why you don't get parachutes on airliners. The rules don't support the idea that manoeuvre drives are anything less than ultra-reliable, so maybe the idea of having to crash land a ship is simply inconceivable?

The short version being, no, 'realistically', Traveller starports should not have landing strips.
Well, part of the "no chute" policy is that there is no way to get 200+ persons out of a downward accellerating airliner and that the extra weight would substract from the payload (income). The fact that HALO jumps require even more gear adds to the problem

And I guess if some airlines (like Aeroflot, SpanAir) started handing out chutes to it's passengers they would see a massiv decrease in passenger numbers.

OTOH there is the 1 Rescue ball or Suit per person policy on IRS (Imperial Registered Ships) in the OTU.
 
I guess the landing system varies by Traveller implementation:

In TNE and GT gravity systems only provide lift not trust. They can make you weightless but any movement must be done by an other source

In MT you have Thrusters that only excert maximum force along one acis and reduce it if you use vectored thrust (Starship Operator) OTOH both types of plates are "cold". The old (pre TTL10 IIRC) pushes against a planetary gravity field, the new against a self-generated one.

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If a planet has TL9 or lower COACC he will likely have runways since most of those use runways. OTOH a COACC base must not be co-located with the starport and IIRC most of the time will not be co-located. Even a seperation by 50km still means that the military (i.e Rheine-Hopsten/JaBo36(72)) will cause problems for the civilian airport (i.e Münster-Osnabrück) and vice versa.

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Runways for lower tech shuttles makes sense.

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Emergency strips are something I'd rather locate AWAY from my mainport. Give them a seperate emergency unit and all but a multi-hundred tons craft (the cargo on a A2 alone can weight more than a fully loaded B52) build to withstand athmosphere entry (DR100 in GT, Armor 40+ in MT) can cause far more damage than a crashing airliner. Even worse if the Jump tanks are full.
 
I've just come in on this thread - looks good.

My 2p for points raised so far:

Landing pads are round so that ships can always head into the wind to minimise buffeting.

Caves are cheap and simple for protection against hostile atmosphere/natives, so should be nearby.

An idea of build timescale could be obtained from a Book 5 planetoid ship of equivalent size or the table in Pocket Empires p107 (1 year X to E, 2 years E to D, 10 years D to C).

I've always thought starports would be located on a lake if possible - ready made smooth flat surface and fuel store in one, but minimal tide/waves. Easy to taxi if need be, and quickly puts out any fires. Facilities can be mounted on a floating/legged/island structure for security, no need to build a fence, XT ends at the shore.

Coincidentally, before I read this thread, I started one under 'Ships Locker' to enquire about the effects of grav vehicle 'wash'. Would there be any pressure? Grav vehicles don't thrust against the surface but against the planet's gravity. If it creates a '1G overpressure' under the vehicle, the pressure might simply double the bystander's weight rather than crushing him?
 
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Dan, is there really a source giving information about the stuff a spacecraft spits out ??

TE
Off the top of my head only two, and both are iffy canon I guess.

The first is High Guard 1st edition with it's fusion torch maneuver drives being useful as a weapon of mass destruction. The same rule didn't make it into HG 2nd ed but then so did some other stuff that maybe should have. So was it a rule change or errata? Probably the first.

The second is Starship Operators Manual 1 with it's color text about the (visible?) light and heat signature of the thruster plates being a dead giveaway in space.

However I think there are other sources, just none I can nail down at the moment. I'm almost sure SOM got the idea from some previous source besides HG 1st ed.
 
1) The point about emergency landing areas being external to the larger size ports is well taken. At an E class, it may well be that everywhere is essentially an emergency landing spot and there isn't really much to risk. But as you move up, more collateral damage becomes possible/likely, so you'd want to shift further away your emergency landing area. I'd say not so far away that your emergency responders can't reach, but far enough that a nice big boom won't destroy everything. Perhaps all emergency landings should be made into water (no harder than ground, absorbs heat, and could cushion and explosion).

2. Airports might want large ponds (actually, open-pit reservoirs) to provide available water for firefighting or irrigation. Also might be where their drainage goes.

3. Ship parking berths: Raised walls and a slightly raised platform are probably the best long term combo - raised walls protects from the environment (and in some cases, could have huge iris or clamshell doors or even some sort of static field repelling rain or other atmosphere) which I most specifically think of wind and wind blown particulates as part of, and the raised platform (a few feet) helps avoid drainage issues. Of course, for the largest ships, a raised platform in the open is the answer - you aren't likely putting a 50dton liner in a round berth or it'd be one freaking huge berth and big wall around it.

4. Starport buildings:
a) Well distributed emergency response will require multiple locations for at least one or two emergency vehicles. An infirmary/med center will become necessary.
b) Customs facilities will be integrated into the main terminal, but some form of impound lot for large cargo or even vessels may be necessary as well.
c) Quarantine area: An area for ships to be quarantined for a period (ideally, this would happen in space before inward clearance, but who knows?). This might just be a lockable berth or it might include its own mini hotel or cargo warehouses. This would also allow ships to be cleaned up (think of the scene in the 5th element where they use flamethrowers to clear vermin off the landing gear).
d) Repair berths, of sizes varying from 10dTons up to possibly several hundred dTons, some for short term work, others for longer term overhauls (think large quonsets or just scaffold frameworks). Also, warehouse space.
e) Fuel tankage and pumps for refined fuel, fuel for local atmosphere craft, and fuel for local ground/grav vehicles. Also probably storage of stuff like LOX and other sorts of gases or liquids needed for starships (coolants, atmospheric gases, lubricants, etc).
f) Disbursed security presence. You need to keep an eye on ships, people entering from the outside world, and even your staff.
g) Storage - parts, paperwork, computer data, yard maintenance equipment, electrical gear and powerplant parts, electronics spares (if the ILS goes down, you don't have time to call offsite), etc. Lots of buildings scattered about.
h) Inspection areas. Various ship's compliance with standards may need verified. The inspectors will need a place to work (berths could double as this) but they'll need offices and record annexes.
i) Onsite hotel/hostel, SPA office, TAS office, insurers offices, ground/grav vehicle rental offices, flight schools for atmospheric craft, perhaps schools for space vehicle crew, currency exchanges, food storage and preparation (from fast food joints to a cafeteria for the staff to fancy restuarants dealing in only offworld food), bank offices, trading factor offices (to buy and sell cargos and do brokerage stuff), veterinary and non-emergency medical services, knick nack and book stores, souvenir stores, stores selling restricted or regulated goods (licqour, drugs, weapons, armour, etc), camera/communications/computer store, tourist bureau, police installation for liason with local PDs outside extrality line, customs both from the planet and the Imperial side, etc.
j) Local defense force presence (for coordination with Imperial presence). Alternately SPA, corporate goons, IBI, Marines or Army... recruiters for various local and Imperial forces. Perhaps an embassy presence (I can see coupling embassies and starports in some places).
k) Acclimatization facilities - even with breathable atmospheres, you might have atmospheric pressure adaptions, you might need a shot or two for local allergens that need some time to take effect, you might need educated on what to do if you discover you are infected with Yallow Fever, etc. - This may take some time. This could be part of the hotel complexes or immigration or wherever.
l) Firefighting services - vehicles and men need a place to live and be worked on.
m) Mandatory Starport Bar(s)
n) Any professional guild (Astrogator's Guild, etc) offices.
o) Journalist offices (TNS, local news looking to break any incoming stories from the ships arriving, etc)
p) Indoor storage for atmospheric craft. Parking areas for same. Repair areas for same. Parking areas for ground or grav vehicles that are picking people up, dropping people off, or doing business with the port or its various ancillary businesses.
q) Psionics Institute (I'm kidding - just seeing if you were still reading)
r) Silos, gun emplacements, etc - Planetary and Starport specific defense against threats in the atmosphere or space (you have your ground-pounders to stop ground threats along with some perimeter defenses).

Note their should be a tower somewhere once you get a bit further along. It lets you mount your search radars higher up (good to avoid irradiating people with powerful emitters!) and it also lets your controllers get a visual eyes-on of what is happening on landing pads, runways, and so on. Sometimes planes/ships aren't responding, but if you can get eyes-on, they you can tell the other nearby craft a bit about what to watch for. You could also respond by dispatching police or emergency response as required. So a tower serves valid purposes even at higher TL.

All of these bits will be present or not depending on the TL, political, environmental, medical, legal, or financial situation (add diplomatic too). They will also evolve over time from smaller flat-pad only ports through your swirling multi-nodal metropoli of chaos.... like your large modern airport on steroids.
 
I'd say anything greater than 5kTons is not likely to land on a planet. These are crafts that you'll likely only find on the big routes along major ports that in turn have orbital dockings.

I like the idea of the berm-internal drainage as well as the firefighting lake. Maybe combine it with a fuel source, using a reservoir for both (if a river is nearby) Page 10 of this PDF has an example of a real world one (used by "our" local nuke plant)

When it comes to covering a berth, the simples construction would be some crossbars suspendet on rollers/rails on both ends that are pulled over the berth after landing and then covered by a tarpaulin. Won't hold in a major hurricane but anything short of that should do.

I'd put emergency equipment and starport hospital under ground if the TL permits. Or at least in HAS like shelters

Depending on the techlevel the tower could be an underground structure. With nuclear powered phase arrays and holographic displays the modern turret style towers are no longer needed at a mature TL8 or later
 
Once you start heading toward the B-class starport, the drainage lake / unrefined fuel source would want to have a fuel processing plant built next to it, with refined fuel storage. This is maybe not the best place to ditch spacecraft having difficulties.

Maybe starports and spaceports would be built on a coastline if possible. This allows for an emergency ditching area, and access to water for fuel processing.
 
Originally posted by Valarian:
Once you start heading toward the B-class starport, the drainage lake / unrefined fuel source would want to have a fuel processing plant built next to it, with refined fuel storage. This is maybe not the best place to ditch spacecraft having difficulties.

Maybe starports and spaceports would be built on a coastline if possible. This allows for an emergency ditching area, and access to water for fuel processing.
Do we need to have ready refined fuel on a base? Aside from a small amount for COACC and emergency craft?

I mean the average downtime is measured in days so a rather large refinery that does on demand refining might be a better idea. After all hydrogen is rather complex to store while water is very easy.

Just watching "The Vikings", Douglas/Curtis/Leight trashing history. More stuff to anger the re-enactors with. :D
 
Um...ok, here is the next step.

Investment from the Imperium!

Without a highport, I think a landing strip is essential to cater to LASH craft and shuttles (TRADE!), so there are now shuttles (sort of in the style of the ones Brom wrote up for the last issue of Stellar Reaches).

Kaladorn has already forseen a couple of the investments made (thank you Kaladorn, I wish I could do proper justice to your stream of ideas, but they are so many and I am so slow!). I went for little berms around the starport berths with a utility room (for repair facilities) and a hydrogen cannister on top. In the second picture you can see the man-made lake with the refinery in the distance. I see the piping of the hydrogen to the cannisters underground on an as and when needed basis so there isn't a lot of the stuff lying around.

Because of the increased traffic there is now a proper starport concourse (TAS accomodation, starport bar, processing areas for passengers). Out of shot is an observatory (why not?) and a very large beacon. In shot there is a new much larger control tower. The original is still there, probably used as crew quarters now or something mundane.

I think the starport is now a D class at least.

I think we need Andrew and/or Mickazoid on this, I don't think I can keep up with the structures...they are all not mine but downloads from the web.

In the first picture I see the building on the far left as (p) in Kaladorn's most excellent list of facilities.

The starport is still lacking in those little things that make it a starport...lighting etc, but I don't have the time.
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Dear Folks -

Originally posted by far-trader:
However I think there are other sources, just none I can nail down at the moment. I'm almost sure SOM got the idea from some previous source besides HG 1st ed.
The square baffles attached to the gig shown in Supp 9: Fighting Ships.

The colour text says the baffles were added to reduce the problems with heat spilling from the drives. However, many people really do just consider this to be colour, rather an example of The Law of Unintended Consequences[TM].

(The "jump flash" idea was added to MT, mainly because the game designers thought it would be a "cool effect!" Real astronomers pointed out that the consquence is "hey, you can detect when a ship jumps into a system!", which was thus used and expanded upon in TNE.)
 
Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
I'd say anything greater than 5kTons is not likely to land on a planet.
My rule of thumb (and thus what's available at Beowulf Down) is max size that actually lands on the ground is 6kT. Craft up to 20kT can enter lower atmosphere and land... in water; they're not rigid enough to support themselves on land without breaking (think of the effect of putting legs on an oil tanker).

They may be able to land on special cradles (like the liner in an early Trav Digest), but that assumes the cradle is available, which assumes a standard merchant route, pre-positioned cradles, etc etc, i.e. Not For Everyone.
 
I think it's also useful to note that a starport is a very likely hub for travel between cities/regions of the world, and so might just as well be an actual 'airport' or 'gravport' for travel across the planetary globe as much as starships or suborbital ships. I like the runways because they seem practical even at some high tech levels. Air travel and powered gliding could be extremely efficient at high TLs, when materials can be extra-light.
 
Hyphen:

Sounds good. I like the idea with the cradel. Maybe something for a port in a flare star system where a highport is not the best idea. Makes for an interesting scene or two (i.e a series of cradle sabotages ala Rollercoaster)

mickazoid:

I always wondered wether there IS local air travel at a high tech world. Wouldn't tube trains using a grav or maglev suspension and evacuatet tubes) be a faster and more economic means of transport? What I could see is local short-ranged air traffic from the end-hub to the equivalent of the Australian Outback but with Traveller Tech one should be abel to get rid of trans-continantel flights
 
I always wondered wether there IS local air travel at a high tech world. Wouldn't tube trains using a grav or maglev suspension and evacuatet tubes) be a faster and more economic means of transport? What I could see is local short-ranged air traffic from the end-hub to the equivalent of the Australian Outback but with Traveller Tech one should be abel to get rid of trans-continantel flights
Doesn't the tech-level of the planet determine what intra-planetary 'feeder' transport is used in/out of starport as the infrastructure will have to also be maintained outside the XT line?

If this is correct then, depending on the tech level of the planet, transport could vary from camels to airships to mag-lev trains, which is kind of cool as it preserves diversity (which is how I like my traveller worlds, old tech rubbing shoulders with new tech).

Imagine a starport with hangars housing a load of hindenburg sized zepplins! Or cargo being taken out of the starport on caravans pulled by six legged oxen - great imaginative fodder.

Ravs
 
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