Evolution of a Starport
- Thread starter ravells
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No smoking! Please!Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Ms.Mickazoid wrote:
ravs wrote:
This also accounts that the starport itself is sometimes in anomalous UWP's found a world where the TL is lower than what is known it could sustain (the readymost examples are of an A-class port on a TL-8 world, and on another, a B-class starport on a TL3 world).
+TL8 is not high enough to produce even a Jump-1 capable starship, hence the A-class port must be presumed to be a minimum of TL9 & supported by offworld trade.
+TL3 is not a high enough TL to support a B-class starport again (its not even the age of electricty or early industrialization, TL4!). Once again, offworld outpost set up here, and supported by offworld trade.
Yes, local transportation means to schlep the cargo & passengers off and away the Starport are dependent on the local majority Tech enjoyed elsewhere on the world
GDW's MT'-COACC displayed that even on worlds of TLA (TL-10) that aircraft were cheaper to produce than gravitic vehicles.
ravs wrote:
Yes.
+TL8 is not high enough to produce even a Jump-1 capable starship, hence the A-class port must be presumed to be a minimum of TL9 & supported by offworld trade.
+TL3 is not a high enough TL to support a B-class starport again (its not even the age of electricty or early industrialization, TL4!). Once again, offworld outpost set up here, and supported by offworld trade.
Circa 1201: Jump (2022) B66536B-3 Lo Ni 411 Na/ The Blight (K)/ Diaspora--govt type 6 military/ or occupied by outside force delineates some of the story here...
Yes, local transportation means to schlep the cargo & passengers off and away the Starport are dependent on the local majority Tech enjoyed elsewhere on the world
I guess a low class starport on a high tech planet would be easier to explain: The planet already has its own high class starports which excercise free trade so there is no need for the Imperium to duplicate.
Valarian: If I were making the zepplins I might opt for Helium! Although the prospect of hydrogen airships / dirigibles being used as in flight tankers for starships may have some legs for a very (odd) adventure.
:Edit: Question: As far as I can see, the only 'fuel' required by starships is hydrogen. Is this correct? Does the H fuel the manouevre and jump drives and powerplant?
Ravs
Ravs
Valarian: If I were making the zepplins I might opt for Helium! Although the prospect of hydrogen airships / dirigibles being used as in flight tankers for starships may have some legs for a very (odd) adventure.
:Edit: Question: As far as I can see, the only 'fuel' required by starships is hydrogen. Is this correct? Does the H fuel the manouevre and jump drives and powerplant?
Ravs
Ravs
I believe canon Traveller is that the liquid hydrogen fuel is used to power both jump and power plant (presumably a H-H fusion reaction). The maneuver drive uses the power from the power plant.
There's an article on Nuclear Fusion at Wikipedia, with various links for fusion power etc.
You could try to figure the various reactions (at increasing levels of efficiency) in to the Traveller tech levels.
e.g.
D-T fusion at TL9
D-D fusion (with D-T secondary reaction) at TL13
and so on ...
There's an article on Nuclear Fusion at Wikipedia, with various links for fusion power etc.
You could try to figure the various reactions (at increasing levels of efficiency) in to the Traveller tech levels.
e.g.
D-T fusion at TL9
D-D fusion (with D-T secondary reaction) at TL13
and so on ...
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
FF&S has TL9-11 fusion using deuterium fuel.
IMTU a free-standing body of water is the best way to provide fuel (skim/processors). When ravs first showed us his 'hollowed-out bowl'/valley basis for starport location, I figured that was the reason. A nice lake, replenished by frequent rain, is a wonderful self-refilling fuel source for a downport.
That would be fine, except most (all?) editions of ship construction rules don't apply this sort of limitation to the purchase of streamlined hulls. Presumably, if this was so, you could not buy streamlined hulls for larger vessels, but you can. Ergo there must be a purpose. Landing on a planet is that purpose, isn't it?
I mean, I personally concur with you that big ships shouldn't land - they should send shuttles or use beanstalks or whatever (hey, a high TL starport could have a beanstalk terminus too!). But I don't think the canon supports this sort of limitation.
I would add the word 'usually'. Take for example a TL-3 world with a Starport type B. B ports may well have a high volume of trade. Sure, your TL-3 locals can't really support this, but it may be that some entrepeneurs go to them and say 'Gee guys, you're bringing in a lot of stuff via camel trains, it takes forever, and that costs you X.... we can lay in a maglev rail, maintained by a few of your people we'll train with a few offworld techs, and it'll quintuple your delivery rates and cost you X/2...' or something like that. I can see a big port extending higher tech feeder lines out into a lower tech world, if the social and political climate permits, to ease commerce with the locals. If there is money to be made and there is a climate (political/economic/diplomatic) to support it, then someone will try to realize the profit. Now, given exchange rates, etc. this isn't an everywhere solution, but some TL-3 worlds might have valuable exports (Tea! The Empire can't function without it!).Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Yes, local transportation means to schlep the cargo & passengers off and away the Starport are dependent on the local majority Tech enjoyed elsewhere on the world
I like the idea of a big reservoir with a massive fuel processor (maybe most of it underground) with feeder pipes running underground to developed bays. Each bay would have a boom or large hose system to mate to ships and feed them fuel from the underground system... there would be fair-sized underground reservoirs of refined fuel, but mostly it'd be made on demand by the massive fuel processor. This would work like today's rechargeable battery systems - you draw from the battery while the recharger simultaneously pumps charge into it to keep it topped up. (Except substitute fuel for charge).
This is probably safer vs. leaks and terrorist acts (underground facilities having controlled entry/exit points) as well as being good for the storage aspect. And the massive processor could be underground (mostly... small exterior entry areas or venting) for aesthetics too.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I generally say only ships under 1000dt can land, not because bigger ships *can't* land but because it's not practical to build bays big enough.
Unless of course they're designed to land in a harbor / natural bay (ie ocean or lake landing).
I could see a situation where large ships are designed for waterlandings and bare rock landings while smaller ships use hard pad landing bays. Oceans become more than just a fuel source in this case.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
But there's only a finite amount of harbour space, and multi-kt ships can easily be >100m long. You'd still only get a handful in.
You need to add: 'We'll build railways!'
I've just been watching the first episode of the rerun of Niall Ferguson's 'Empire' about the the life of the British Empire. You can see a lot of interplay between trade and empire building as applied to traveller possibilities there.
Ravs
I can see a city modeled after current-day Venice or Amsterdam, with one foot in the water (the waterways serving as roads and harbors) and one hand in the sky (the starships landing in the lakes, bays and dedicated starport pads). Would be a lovely world to visit, but reduced ground traffic speeds due to the canals would probably be a major issue too...
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
As an example of water-assisted ports, here is a fairly nice aerial shot of the airport in Anchorage, Alaska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=4&S=13&Z=6&X=212&Y=4241&W=2&qs=%7c%7cAlaska%7c
Note the barbell-shaped lake. Zoom in on the shores of the lake.
.....but reduced ground traffic speeds due to the canals would probably be a major issue too...
"Ground Traffic"?you wouldn't have to restrict the traffic to the ground, with grav vehicles the only real limit would be atmospheric, so I can't see that as a major issue given the proper tech level.
"Ground Traffic"?you wouldn't have to restrict the traffic to the ground, with grav vehicles the only real limit would be atmospheric, so I can't see that as a major issue given the proper tech level.
Supertankers of today top 300m. I think Vancouver harbour (I had a friend who spent a lot of time with the Navy) can accomodate either 2 or 4 of the big boys simultaneously (now, maybe that's just on the way in/out at one time... I'll have to ask him when he gets back with his ship from work ups post-refit in a week or three). The others wait at some sort of 'parking' zone and all of them get a local harbour pilot before they are allowed to come in. So some scheme like this might be used... how many 50,000 dTon ships would one expect at once? Even a big port might have 3 or 4 with a couple of others lined up waiting for a slot - they're just so large they'd only be justified on routes with a very high BTN (trade value in Gurpsian terms). Most places just wouldn't justify the heavy traffic, getting maybe one of these big boys at a time.
Harbour Pilots!
That's another point: Some ports may not let people land without a certified port pilot accompanying them. This would be for high traffic, high volume ports. The port pilot would transfer aboard at the highport or from a pinnace in orbit and supervise the atmospheric entry, the approach to the port, and the landing and securing of the vessel. Then they might launch to orbit for a second go. I'm imagining 2-3 of these trips might fit in a 12 hour shift. Note that only ships of a minimum size (perhaps > 1000 or 5000 dTons) would be required to use this sort of service and only at certain ports. The Harbour pilots would similarly be used on egress as well as on ingress. And of course, this gives a further 'union'/'guild' feel to some places (and leaves all sorts of Teamsters/Jimmy Hoffa sort of scenarios for the players to become involved in).
That's another point: Some ports may not let people land without a certified port pilot accompanying them. This would be for high traffic, high volume ports. The port pilot would transfer aboard at the highport or from a pinnace in orbit and supervise the atmospheric entry, the approach to the port, and the landing and securing of the vessel. Then they might launch to orbit for a second go. I'm imagining 2-3 of these trips might fit in a 12 hour shift. Note that only ships of a minimum size (perhaps > 1000 or 5000 dTons) would be required to use this sort of service and only at certain ports. The Harbour pilots would similarly be used on egress as well as on ingress. And of course, this gives a further 'union'/'guild' feel to some places (and leaves all sorts of Teamsters/Jimmy Hoffa sort of scenarios for the players to become involved in).
Is there a listing anywhere of the size of traveller starships?
I went to that comparative staship site and copied these 4 (747,Hindenberg,Worlds Largest ship, Battlestar Galactica) to help me get my mind around the scale of ships generally. What would you assess the D-tonnage as of the craft pictured below?
Ravs
I went to that comparative staship site and copied these 4 (747,Hindenberg,Worlds Largest ship, Battlestar Galactica) to help me get my mind around the scale of ships generally. What would you assess the D-tonnage as of the craft pictured below?
Ravs
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