It's actually not that bad; you can hire a part-time broker to handle that. As long as you can give the broker a fairly firm estimate on when you'll be back, it's not much effort for him to take cargo for you. You'll pay, but it tends to be worth it for the reduced turnover time.
Far Trader cargo/Freight manifest questions
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
It's actually not that bad; you can hire a part-time broker to handle that. As long as you can give the broker a fairly firm estimate on when you'll be back, it's not much effort for him to take cargo for you. You'll pay, but it tends to be worth it for the reduced turnover time. </font>[/QUOTE]I think it's that, "fairly firm estimate" part that would concern most PC groups. For a real merchant, that would probably work.
EDIT>
I sort of quasi-assume that large merchant concerns establish their own factors wherever their ships go, permanent or contract, but they have them. Very large concerns have their own warehouses and on-world shipping systems (on the High Pop worlds where it matters). This makes their turn arounds very short, everything is actually pre-arranged. For PCs and independents, though, scrounging around for whatever is available is a way of life.
Yup, me too. And it's this traffic with planetside brokering and factoring which sets the prevailing "standard" cargo/pax rates at which the PCs have to try and make a profit if they do straight haulage.
The rates actually seem fairly realistic for one parsec trips (the rules for other distances are bunkum), as does the fact that PCs can barely break even on them. After all, they're the small-time amateurs in the shipping business.
[For multi-parsec routes, something else is needed. A fee per parsec is just as daft as fee per trip -- you end up with nobody doing J1 instead of everybody doing J1. We need a pricing formula which makes all merchie distances roughly equally profitable for typical ships. Perhaps a lookup table would be better than a formula.]
It wouldn't hurt to have some alternative finance models either, for captains who just want to operate the ship rather than purchase it. Hence the leasing scheme I suggested a while back.
Unfortunately, that's not daft: for distances beyond 1 parsec, no-one will use a J1 ship, because it's always cheaper to use J2 or J3 (usually J2, but it may be J3 in some rulesets). There does have to be a special cost for 1 parsec jumps, however, as they aren't half as expensive as 2 parsec jumps.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Larsen, could you post a file of the leasing scheme to the eLibrary?
As for freight charges, I've been thinking of something along the lines of altering the per dTon freight charge, plus surcharge for multi-parsec jumps (without being too high), balanced against whichever speculative trading system I'm going to settle on (I'm leaning toward designing one myself, or at least modifiying an existing one, but that's going to be a whole 'nother pile of work).
Oh, I also realize that GURPS:Far Trade has something like what I describe above (having been able to borrow it from a distant friend for a couple of weeks several months ago), but one, it's in GURPS Tech and Credits scale, and two, I can't afford it right now. Besides, I like to tinker with this stuff.
As for freight charges, I've been thinking of something along the lines of altering the per dTon freight charge, plus surcharge for multi-parsec jumps (without being too high), balanced against whichever speculative trading system I'm going to settle on (I'm leaning toward designing one myself, or at least modifiying an existing one, but that's going to be a whole 'nother pile of work).
Oh, I also realize that GURPS:Far Trade has something like what I describe above (having been able to borrow it from a distant friend for a couple of weeks several months ago), but one, it's in GURPS Tech and Credits scale, and two, I can't afford it right now. Besides, I like to tinker with this stuff.
RainOfSteel wrote:
"Larsen, could you post a file of the leasing scheme to the eLibrary?"
Mr. Steel,
Who me? (looks around wildly for anyone bearing an arrest warrant) Methinks you have me confused with some more worthy poster, sir!
BTW, I'd like to see the aforementioned leasing scheme hosted somewhere too.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Larsen, could you post a file of the leasing scheme to the eLibrary?"
Mr. Steel,
Who me? (looks around wildly for anyone bearing an arrest warrant) Methinks you have me confused with some more worthy poster, sir!
BTW, I'd like to see the aforementioned leasing scheme hosted somewhere too.
Sincerely,
Larsen
I think it was me. It's just a general idea I posted earlier in this thread (skim my posts on pages 1 and 2, alternative depreciation and leasing).Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
RainOfSteel wrote:
"Larsen, could you post a file of the leasing scheme to the eLibrary?"
Mr. Steel,
Who me? (looks around wildly for anyone bearing an arrest warrant) Methinks you have me confused with some more worthy poster, sir!
BTW, I'd like to see the aforementioned leasing scheme hosted somewhere too.
Sincerely,
Larsen
I about to head off for a bit, but I might try to put some rigor into the numbers when I get back.
On the revenue side, you could also use this spreadsheet to play with basic price vs distance systems. It's simplistic, but better than the various books (T20, GURPS:FT etc).
One of these days I'll do a huge data trawl for the Gateway domain and work out what the pricing system ought to be to match actual data, rather than theory...
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
There isn't much problem making a profit, even if you take in all the expenses for a Jump one ship. Where it breaks down is when you have to make a payment on a higher jump ship. (With the freight per jump, distance irrelevant economic model.)
These 5 to 10k will likely be used to cover the costs I forgot in my calc.
Francois </font>[/QUOTE]
I actually made a partial evaluation and with a 400-tons ship (jump 1 drive), no need to be at full capacity all the time to make a LITTLE profit. (Like 5 to 10k).
These 5 to 10k will likely be used to cover the costs I forgot in my calc.
Francois </font>[/QUOTE]
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually the profit margin in terms of percentages is higher with a Jump-one ship than the multi-parsec ships. With a Free Trader running full loads (I know you can't always run full loads but as a basis for comparisons.) you make back your 20% down in about 5 years. (And therefore can buy another one without an additional investment in 5 years.) A far trader running full loads at full jump capacity (ideal but even less likely) on the per parsec model takes about 10 years to earn back your 20% down. The ship also costs about twice as much in the first place. (CT costs) So your J-1 traders won't go away, they will still be the most prolific types along the main. Away from the main they won't be but there still will be trade.
I am about to get into costs and do some economic modeling under T20 and see how different it is. Looks like the Free Trader and Far Trader are much closer in price. Has anyone crunched the numbers yet?
As for PCs barely breaking even. That works for me. As long as they can actually break even. I expect other factors to get in the way of profit, not the economic feasability of the ship in the first place. But PCs being small time amateurs, PCs tend to be exceptional people in the first place. A Merchant skipper with 20+ years experience (He did get to skipper in the first place.) is hardly an amateur. Granted striking out on your own is going to make you small time, at least initially, but not an amateur. One of the things I always loved about Traveller is the characters don't start out as some Joe, fresh off the block, just out of Highschool, going out to seek his fame and fortune. He has a past and experience.
As you look at your design for your table remember it isn't the absolute profit that is important but the percentages and margins that make sense. If you put more in you should get more out. If you keep it simple and charge per Parsec then the J-1 ship has a better margin. But if you put more in then you get more absolute cash back out. You want a great margin, invest a little more than a Far Trader and buy a Fat Trader. Now for the small merchant that is an awsome ship to have. Again it takes around 5 years to earn back your 20% down on full loads. It is only a jump-1 ship. Economically it beats the pants off the higher jump ships on the percentages.The Liner takes 12-15 years for your 20% under the same model, but the numbers look huge. (Of course in this case your 20% down is around MCr45.) But for larger concerns, Merchants that are really looking to make a profit it isn't the absolute profit but the percentage of profit based on expense. I can make more money running two Free Traders with less risk than one Far Trader. I can make more money with two Fat Traders than one Liner. I can really spread out my risk run all up and down the main and make a huge profit running 6 Free Traders and comparing it to one Liner. (The cost for the Free Traders is just a little less than the Liner.) I can double the size of my merchant fleet in 5 years running Free Traders. Every 5 years. So starting with one Free Trader in 20 years I can have 16 free traders. (Provided I can keep the ships full and other factors.) Losing one to pirates (Provided it isn't in the first 5 years.) won't kill my business. After the first 10 years, when the Far Trader allows me to double my fleet to two, I'll already be at 4 ships and the loss of one will hardly slow me down. That is the reason the margin and percentages are more important than absolute numbers. The lowly Jump-1 ships will always beeconomically viable even when the numbers on the Jump-2+ ships look so big simply because your margins are higher and your risks are lower.
The rates actually seem fairly realistic for one parsec trips (the rules for other distances are bunkum), as does the fact that PCs can barely break even on them. After all, they're the small-time amateurs in the shipping business.
[For multi-parsec routes, something else is needed. A fee per parsec is just as daft as fee per trip -- you end up with nobody doing J1 instead of everybody doing J1. We need a pricing formula which makes all merchie distances roughly equally profitable for typical ships. Perhaps a lookup table would be better than a formula.]
It wouldn't hurt to have some alternative finance models either, for captains who just want to operate the ship rather than purchase it. Hence the leasing scheme I suggested a while back. </font>[/QUOTE]
I am about to get into costs and do some economic modeling under T20 and see how different it is. Looks like the Free Trader and Far Trader are much closer in price. Has anyone crunched the numbers yet?
As for PCs barely breaking even. That works for me. As long as they can actually break even. I expect other factors to get in the way of profit, not the economic feasability of the ship in the first place. But PCs being small time amateurs, PCs tend to be exceptional people in the first place. A Merchant skipper with 20+ years experience (He did get to skipper in the first place.) is hardly an amateur. Granted striking out on your own is going to make you small time, at least initially, but not an amateur. One of the things I always loved about Traveller is the characters don't start out as some Joe, fresh off the block, just out of Highschool, going out to seek his fame and fortune. He has a past and experience.
As you look at your design for your table remember it isn't the absolute profit that is important but the percentages and margins that make sense. If you put more in you should get more out. If you keep it simple and charge per Parsec then the J-1 ship has a better margin. But if you put more in then you get more absolute cash back out. You want a great margin, invest a little more than a Far Trader and buy a Fat Trader. Now for the small merchant that is an awsome ship to have. Again it takes around 5 years to earn back your 20% down on full loads. It is only a jump-1 ship. Economically it beats the pants off the higher jump ships on the percentages.The Liner takes 12-15 years for your 20% under the same model, but the numbers look huge. (Of course in this case your 20% down is around MCr45.) But for larger concerns, Merchants that are really looking to make a profit it isn't the absolute profit but the percentage of profit based on expense. I can make more money running two Free Traders with less risk than one Far Trader. I can make more money with two Fat Traders than one Liner. I can really spread out my risk run all up and down the main and make a huge profit running 6 Free Traders and comparing it to one Liner. (The cost for the Free Traders is just a little less than the Liner.) I can double the size of my merchant fleet in 5 years running Free Traders. Every 5 years. So starting with one Free Trader in 20 years I can have 16 free traders. (Provided I can keep the ships full and other factors.) Losing one to pirates (Provided it isn't in the first 5 years.) won't kill my business. After the first 10 years, when the Far Trader allows me to double my fleet to two, I'll already be at 4 ships and the loss of one will hardly slow me down. That is the reason the margin and percentages are more important than absolute numbers. The lowly Jump-1 ships will always beeconomically viable even when the numbers on the Jump-2+ ships look so big simply because your margins are higher and your risks are lower.
Yup, me too. And it's this traffic with planetside brokering and factoring which sets the prevailing "standard" cargo/pax rates at which the PCs have to try and make a profit if they do straight haulage.
The rates actually seem fairly realistic for one parsec trips (the rules for other distances are bunkum), as does the fact that PCs can barely break even on them. After all, they're the small-time amateurs in the shipping business.
[For multi-parsec routes, something else is needed. A fee per parsec is just as daft as fee per trip -- you end up with nobody doing J1 instead of everybody doing J1. We need a pricing formula which makes all merchie distances roughly equally profitable for typical ships. Perhaps a lookup table would be better than a formula.]
It wouldn't hurt to have some alternative finance models either, for captains who just want to operate the ship rather than purchase it. Hence the leasing scheme I suggested a while back. </font>[/QUOTE]
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
A frim schedule for a "Real" Merchant is still going to be fairly fluid. Especially if it is a longer route. How do you figure a "Firm schedule" when you are slipping a day here and a day there. (And you have no way to tell someone down the road that you are delayed.) Jump is going to average a week. You can make up the day you lost on another day. But if you show up early you aren't going to be ready to load on a two day turn around schedule so you don't save any time. You will slowly slip out of your two day window. You are going to lose a at least day travelling to and from the jump point, fueling, Customs, docking, life support resupply etc. That leaves you a day to load, unload, board, debark. If you are a day late then you lost a day. If you are two days late then things get pushed down the line. If you get to three days behind one of your Factors are probably going to have to ship all this stuff they lined up for your tight schedule and suddenly you are a week to 10 days behind and all the way down the line your schedule just went to hell. Or your factor got overbooked and doesn't have a load ready for you, or there isn't a load going to your next destination but I can get you a full load for someplace else. Suddenly you are spending a week at each destination and all your factors are mad at you. One of the reasons Commercial ships generally spend one week at the destination between each week in jump. Another is that crews tend to get cranky being stuck on the ship with the same people all the time. And the big reason is that nobody knows when a ship is going to arrive until it does. (Communication being what it is.)
EDIT>
I sort of quasi-assume that large merchant concerns establish their own factors wherever their ships go, permanent or contract, but they have them. Very large concerns have their own warehouses and on-world shipping systems (on the High Pop worlds where it matters). This makes their turn arounds very short, everything is actually pre-arranged. For PCs and independents, though, scrounging around for whatever is available is a way of life. </font>[/QUOTE]
It's actually not that bad; you can hire a part-time broker to handle that. As long as you can give the broker a fairly firm estimate on when you'll be back, it's not much effort for him to take cargo for you. You'll pay, but it tends to be worth it for the reduced turnover time. </font>[/QUOTE]I think it's that, "fairly firm estimate" part that would concern most PC groups. For a real merchant, that would probably work.
EDIT>
I sort of quasi-assume that large merchant concerns establish their own factors wherever their ships go, permanent or contract, but they have them. Very large concerns have their own warehouses and on-world shipping systems (on the High Pop worlds where it matters). This makes their turn arounds very short, everything is actually pre-arranged. For PCs and independents, though, scrounging around for whatever is available is a way of life. </font>[/QUOTE]
You build in slop time, and 'firm' still means within a period of a couple of days.
Yes you will. That's what warehouses are for, particularly since you can warn the customer at least 6 hours in advance of your arrival.
I already counted transit times; the base time is 56 hours. You can refuel and replenish life support while loading cargo, and they don't take that long anyway. Docking is part of transit time. Customs might take a while, but as long as there's warehouses available at the starport, it's not the ship's problem, because customs applies when the cargo leaves the extrality zone, not when the ship arrives.
More like 40 hours. Still, I actually favor a 10 day period (2.8 jumps/month) which gives about 58 hours for everything, and allows 34-35 jumps per year plus annual maintenance.
Bhoins wrote:
"A firm schedule for a "Real" Merchant is still going to be fairly fluid. Especially if it is a longer route. How do you figure a "Firm schedule" when you are slipping a day here and a day there. (And you have no way to tell someone down the road that you are delayed.)"
Mr. Bhoins,
Read up on the Age of Sail sometimes, especially that days of the clipper ships. You had an early industrialized economy working in portions of western Europe and north America all tied to a shipping schedule that 'slipped' far more than 'a day here and a day there'.
No submarine telegraph cables until after the 1860s, no radio until after 1900, no real oceanic steam transport until the development of the triple expansion engine in the 1880s, and yet all those cargos were shipped, all those sellers made a steady profit, and all those buyers got what they needed when they needed it.
As a hobby, we really bring quite a bit of 21st Century baggage to the Our Old Game's 57th Century. We cannot imagine transport not running on schedules fixed down to the minute, a lack of instantaneous communications, governments based on territorial supremacy instead of territorial sovereignty, and a whole host of other cultural assumptions.
We (myself most of all) really need to remove our cultural blinders sometimes.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"A firm schedule for a "Real" Merchant is still going to be fairly fluid. Especially if it is a longer route. How do you figure a "Firm schedule" when you are slipping a day here and a day there. (And you have no way to tell someone down the road that you are delayed.)"
Mr. Bhoins,
Read up on the Age of Sail sometimes, especially that days of the clipper ships. You had an early industrialized economy working in portions of western Europe and north America all tied to a shipping schedule that 'slipped' far more than 'a day here and a day there'.
No submarine telegraph cables until after the 1860s, no radio until after 1900, no real oceanic steam transport until the development of the triple expansion engine in the 1880s, and yet all those cargos were shipped, all those sellers made a steady profit, and all those buyers got what they needed when they needed it.
As a hobby, we really bring quite a bit of 21st Century baggage to the Our Old Game's 57th Century. We cannot imagine transport not running on schedules fixed down to the minute, a lack of instantaneous communications, governments based on territorial supremacy instead of territorial sovereignty, and a whole host of other cultural assumptions.
We (myself most of all) really need to remove our cultural blinders sometimes.
Sincerely,
Larsen
The estimable Mr. Whipsnade is correct, most of us do tend to bring our early 21st century "FedEx" mentality to trade operations. This has to do, I think, with most people being familiar with it, and the other shippers around the world that specialize in rapid package delivery. The vast majority of cargo around the world, indeed most of the cargo here in the US, isn't done that way.
In normal shipping, whether by truck, rail, or cargo ship, even with modern tracking systems, computerized load handling systems, and state of the art weather prediction, you still have leeways in delivery that are measured in days, not hours. In the Age of Sail, that was measured in weeks, either by ship or by wagon. In the Steam Age things picked up the pace, but still the vagaries of transport meant that deliveries followed their own schedule, not necessarily the one intended either. Current priority shipping techniques and "just in time" delivery are expensive to setup and operate, and aren't generally adaptable to Traveller, given the travel times in the OTU.
As always, YMMV
John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com
In normal shipping, whether by truck, rail, or cargo ship, even with modern tracking systems, computerized load handling systems, and state of the art weather prediction, you still have leeways in delivery that are measured in days, not hours. In the Age of Sail, that was measured in weeks, either by ship or by wagon. In the Steam Age things picked up the pace, but still the vagaries of transport meant that deliveries followed their own schedule, not necessarily the one intended either. Current priority shipping techniques and "just in time" delivery are expensive to setup and operate, and aren't generally adaptable to Traveller, given the travel times in the OTU.
As always, YMMV
John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com
We have a bit of a FedEx mentality because faster delivery is constantly demanded. Many large scale corporations are using JIT ordering/delivery to maintain low inventories. Failures in this system can deadtime an assembly line or delay product deliveries. Something tells me the 57th century's on-planet delivery systems aren't going to be slower or less sophisticated.
Now, LEW makes a good point about our blinders and I do take it to heart, BUT....
Given that on-planet delivery on most high-tech worlds will be JIT/tightly timed, for simple efficiency reasons, there will be attempts to put as much of this kind of thinking into larger scale interstellar commerce as it is feasible to insert. A buyer who knows his suppliers deliver plus or minus 8 hours on planet is going to get a bit sick of hearing plus or minus a week on deliveries from the nearby system.
I know we could say 'this is the age of sail' but we could also say 'this is the age of antigrav and near instant communications' equally well. The former is a closer approximation of the interstellar fact, but the latter is the on-planet or even in-system fact. And the reality of that fact will tend to colour expectation wrt interstellar commerce.
OTOH, I do happen to agree that constantly shoving your merchant crew jump to jump for 35 jumps a year ignores the human need for downtime and may well result in some nasty episodes of .... SPACE MADNESS! (Ren and Stimpy fans take note).
Now, LEW makes a good point about our blinders and I do take it to heart, BUT....
Given that on-planet delivery on most high-tech worlds will be JIT/tightly timed, for simple efficiency reasons, there will be attempts to put as much of this kind of thinking into larger scale interstellar commerce as it is feasible to insert. A buyer who knows his suppliers deliver plus or minus 8 hours on planet is going to get a bit sick of hearing plus or minus a week on deliveries from the nearby system.
I know we could say 'this is the age of sail' but we could also say 'this is the age of antigrav and near instant communications' equally well. The former is a closer approximation of the interstellar fact, but the latter is the on-planet or even in-system fact. And the reality of that fact will tend to colour expectation wrt interstellar commerce.
OTOH, I do happen to agree that constantly shoving your merchant crew jump to jump for 35 jumps a year ignores the human need for downtime and may well result in some nasty episodes of .... SPACE MADNESS! (Ren and Stimpy fans take note).
kaladorn wrote:
Where things will be different will be free traders and other small merchants off the mains and out of the clusters. There the Age of Sail paradigm will be most felt, as the small merchantmen go from backwater to backwater, picking up cargo and passengers as they can, keeping no set schedule, indeed no schedule could be kept on those runs, as availability of freight and passengers will vary from planet to planet.
As always, YMMV
John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com
All very true, but JIT ordering/delivery is relatively new, and only really feasable with modern technologies, so even in the 57th century, planets of TL7 or less won't have any of these types of services available. Only TL8 or above will have this type of delivery, and then only on in-system shipping.
Again no disagreement, most large companies will have their interstellar deliveries made by as close to the same method as they can, which means that they will almost always go with regularly scheduled megacorp shipping for almost all their cargo needs. The megacorps have the ability to streamline interstellar cargo operations to the point that will make deliveries close to modern ideas of ontime delivery.
Where things will be different will be free traders and other small merchants off the mains and out of the clusters. There the Age of Sail paradigm will be most felt, as the small merchantmen go from backwater to backwater, picking up cargo and passengers as they can, keeping no set schedule, indeed no schedule could be kept on those runs, as availability of freight and passengers will vary from planet to planet.
As always, YMMV
John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com
35 jumps a year is not hardship; remember, for seven days of that time (jump) you're basically doing nothing except routine maintenance. The biggest issue is probably boredom and claustrophobia, and it's no worse than would be experienced on many pre-modern ships. Still, there's probably a reason Traveller staterooms are so large (they're immense compared to sub quarters, and big compared to modern surface ships). Also, you probably do get downtime; by pre-booking space, the shipping companies can determine demand, and remove ships for downtime when demand is light.
For a major shipping company, you won't book space on ship X at time Y -- you'll just book space at time Y, and wind up on whatever ship is available.
For a major shipping company, you won't book space on ship X at time Y -- you'll just book space at time Y, and wind up on whatever ship is available.
Ain't THAT the Truth!!
(says the Bubblehead who spent MONTHS in a 6x4ft living space)
and drawing on that experience...
my current PCs 'inherited' partial ownership of a Kelly/Victrix Sloop converted to cargo hauling. The staterooms have all been removed and replaced with double occupancy small cabins.
Hey, crew can rough it for meesly week...jeesh!
I'm also giving the fuel option a try this time around (reducing the Jump fuel by 1/2), for many of the reasons in this thread. I want the group to ADVENTURE, not spend half the evening crunching economic numbers.
So, the sloop with the fuel space converted to cargo, and other modifications to maximize cargo space becomes profitable. Especially since the Jump-4 capability of the sloop lets the group take advantage of the higher rates for priority cargos.
Being able to cover their monthly overhead in one or two trips, means they can make the occasional jump for 'adventuring' motives...like to check out the rumor of an Ancient artifact somewhere in System X's planetoid belt....
Yeah, I know some of the realism lovers will cringe, but I'm sacrificing some logistical nightmares for enjoyment of the game
Despasian
Granpafishy
SOC-12
Isn't that the purpose of gaming in the first place, to have fun?
The stateroom volume takes 'public spaces' into account, so a stateroom will probably not occupy all 4 tons. If it only takes 2 tons, and your trader has 8 staterooms, then there's 16 tons of shared space. And hallways are 'free' more or less.
16 tons is bigger than my house: 24 by 24 meters, which is plenty of space for a kitchen, living area, baths and WCs. And a sickbay for the medic.
16 tons is bigger than my house: 24 by 24 meters, which is plenty of space for a kitchen, living area, baths and WCs. And a sickbay for the medic.
