Fighters/PT Boats in the Traveller Universe

[Jame]

I don' t worry much about what a KK missile does on impact. I worry about what it does after it has impacted, has punched through the intervening armor, and is inside and trying to punch its way through the armor on the other side.View attachment 5003

At this speed, wouldn't it explode?

 

[TamsinP]

One thing to bear in mind is that it is the relative, not absolute, velocity of the missile which will determine the amount of energy resulting from the impact.

 

[chipla]

Nukes are enormously more powerful, especially in terms of bang per kilogram. One that'll fit onto a standard CT missile will be quite weak, say 1 kiloton, because most of its mass will be non-nuclear control systems, chemical initiators, and so on. But even 1 kT for a 0.1 ton missile means the missile needs to be going about 300 km/s to have the same energy density from kinetic energy (five 1,000s turns at 6G), and a nuke brings a stand-off capability as well - no need to get an actual contact

Given how nuclear warheads have gotten smaller since the 40s and the fact a 400kt MIRV warhead is about the size of a large howizer shell I feel that 1kt is actually a very low yield.

TL15 made nukes are probably in the MT range at the minimum.

 

[aramis]

At about 3 km/s, an object's kinetic energy is the same as the chemical energy an equal mass of chemical explosives would have. Thus above that point there's little increase in damage to be had from explosive warheads (just put any spare mass into fuel to get a higher terminal velocity).

One G for 1,000 seconds get you 10 km/s, for about ten times the energy of this threshold

Nukes are enormously more powerful, especially in terms of bang per kilogram. One that'll fit onto a standard CT missile will be quite weak, say 1 kiloton, because most of its mass will be non-nuclear control systems, chemical initiators, and so on. But even 1 kT for a 0.1 ton missile means the missile needs to be going about 300 km/s to have the same energy density from kinetic energy (five 1,000s turns at 6G), and a nuke brings a stand-off capability as well - no need to get an actual contact hit.

So nukes are very definitely worth it as long as dampers aren't all-powerful. They make hits easier and bring a huge increase in damage potential.

Nukes also add the radiation imposed electrical current, which kinetics simply cannot do. Overloading the radios and comms, is a good tactical objective a nuke can achieve; overloading the sensors is even more valuable, and again, the standoff EMP is a value-add there.

 

[aramis]

Given how nuclear warheads have gotten smaller since the 40s and the fact a 400kt MIRV warhead is about the size of a large howizer shell I feel that 1kt is actually a very low yield.

TL15 made nukes are probably in the MT range at the minimum.

8" arty had nukes in the 1970's or before.

 

[Rupert]

Given how nuclear warheads have gotten smaller since the 40s and the fact a 400kt MIRV warhead is about the size of a large howizer shell I feel that 1kt is actually a very low yield.

TL15 made nukes are probably in the MT range at the minimum.

Remember that the CT missile is tiny, and there's very little mass free after rocket and guidance/comms are placed. Also, I used 1 kT as the base just to show how much energy even a tiny nuke has.

I thought there were stats for nukes in Striker or MegaTraveller, but I couldn't find any on a quick check. FF&S gives a 1 kT nuke a mass of 8.4 kg at TL15.

 

[Carlobrand]

Remember that the CT missile is tiny, and there's very little mass free after rocket and guidance/comms are placed. Also, I used 1 kT as the base just to show how much energy even a tiny nuke has.

I thought there were stats for nukes in Striker or MegaTraveller, but I couldn't find any on a quick check. FF&S gives a 1 kT nuke a mass of 8.4 kg at TL15.

Striker's nuke stats are in Book 3.

 

[chipla]

Iirc there’s ten missiles in a displacement ton in CT?

This is roughly a cylinder of 5m tall and .3m radius. Which is about 1.5x the size of a sea sparrow.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Iirc there’s ten missiles in a displacement ton in CT?

This is roughly a cylinder of 5m tall and .3m radius. Which is about 1.5x the size of a sea sparrow.

That ton also has to include a control couch and turret traverse/elevation mechanisms...

 

[chipla]

That ton also has to include a control couch and turret traverse/elevation mechanisms...

I'm counting what it says for storing missiles (12 per ton in Mgt and I believe 10 per ton in CT, I havent seen the relevant books since before the towers fell).

 

[Condottiere]

Our nukes tend to be tactical.

No planetbusters, or hellburners.

Hard to tell how a damage statistic relates to actual volume of conventional explosives.

 

[chipla]

Our nukes tend to be tactical.

No planetbusters, or hellburners.

Hard to tell how a damage statistic relates to actual volume of conventional explosives.

I think if you’re using nukes on that scale it becomes narrative rather than rolled damage .


Which is how I treat nukes at anything other than the spaceship scale.

 

[Condottiere]

Pretty sure you could send a large enough thermobaric warhead into an atmosphere to get a strategic effect.

 

[Rupert]

Striker's nuke stats are in Book 3.

Which means I managed to not see them twice when looking for them. Anyway, it's the same table in FF&S, essentially, but the weights of ammo is a bit different. Result - Striker 1KT TL15 nukes are 1.5 kg, I think.

 

[chipla]

Pretty sure you could send a large enough thermobaric warhead into an atmosphere to get a strategic effect.

Which iirc is why they’re illegal in the 3I.

Tbh given the fact almost everything shipside is powered by fusion the ban on nukes makes little sense. If I wanted to make a city go boom overloading the plant on a free trader ought to do it.

 

[Rupert]

Which iirc is why they’re illegal in the 3I.

Tbh given the fact almost everything shipside is powered by fusion the ban on nukes makes little sense. If I wanted to make a city go boom overloading the plant on a free trader ought to do it.

That's assuming fusion reactors can actually go 'boom' rather than just fizzing out when something goes wrong. But yes, given how dangerous a starship can be they are ridiculously under-regulated in Traveller.

 

[Condottiere]

Magnetic bottles.

Don't settle for Plasma Environment (hot) Tub.

 

[whartung]

I think if you’re using nukes on that scale it becomes narrative rather than rolled damage .

Starship combat should be narrative anyway.

 

[kilemall]

Which means I managed to not see them twice when looking for them. Anyway, it's the same table in FF&S, essentially, but the weights of ammo is a bit different. Result - Striker 1KT TL15 nukes are 1.5 kg, I think.

No they are heavier.

 

[Rupert]

No they are heavier.

The base weight is 30kg for a 10cm CPR shell, which is what a 1 KT nuke fits into at TL15, but tac missile warheads are given as being 0.05 (!) times this weight, so 1.5kg.