Finally got my Rulebook and tried to read it...

[Ector]

People are SELLING the Kickstarter rulebooks!

Guys, if anyone here doubts that the Core Rulebook is awful, here's the fact that should prove that easily: people are selling the Kickstarter books at eBay.

Why on Earth should a normal player sell that rarest book signed by MM himself? Just think about it. I will never sell my book or even lend it to someone because I know I will never meet MM personally or talk to him, so the book is the only chance to get his signature. This book is my precious
Still, people are selling it. Some sell it even with the nobility cards, dice and other goodies. You may check the eBay now; a Baron from the Vland sector is selling the signed rulebook (but not the nobility patent yet). The only reason is - these people failed to understand the book like me. They invested money for Kickstarter and got disappointed...

 

[KDLadage]

Guys, if anyone here doubts that the Core Rulebook is awful, here's the fact that should prove that easily: people are selling the Kickstarter books at eBay.

And exhibit #2, your honor: note than some of these books are selling for less than $50. In fact, some are selling only if they are less than $40... $37.50 seems a good going price... Half-Price Books would be proud.

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

My name is in the credits of this book. I don't know why - the only input I had was in 1998 when Marc asked me for some comments on the aliens creation rules. I did that and gratuitously sent in some comments about combat as well, but looking at the final release book none of this was used in any way.

So basically I had no input to this book. If I had, I would have advocated a rather different approach - in fact, I did so, as the project neared completion.

Since publication, I've looked at ways that the work invested in the T5 book could be used to create the ultimate version of Traveller we were offered. I've told Marc this directly so this isn't just me posting what I want on a mailing list... I've offered to earn my place in the credits, so to speak, by creating the products.

Basically I think the rules need revising in places and errata incorporating everywhere, and from these fixed rules there needs to be culled a short and simple (and well-presented & properly organised) rule set for each significant chunk of gaming. Ships book, combat book, beasties book, worldbuilding book etc.

There also need to be sourcebooks and adventures. Handing someone a giant toolkit and a pile of car components is one thing, but most folks prefer to just walk out their door and get in the car that's on the drive.

A good while back one of the more connected people with FFE announced that 'the sourcebooks are just waiting to be written'. Hilarious nonsense, but more importantly I suspect that they're still waiting to be written.

My opinion is that FFE needs to hire a professional writer who knows Traveller to take T5 and turn it into a game you can play, with adventures and sourcebooks and such like. Or do it in-house, for that matter. But it needs to happen, and the fans need to know it's happening.

Right now, the biggest question is: is the T5 book as published 'it', or is it a perhaps shaky start to something really, really good?

 

[Hemdian]

My name is in the credits of this book. I don't know why

The way I read the credits page:

Marc's name at the top (obviously), followed by his two 'lieutenants'.

Then comes a block of all the people who have been key to Traveller over the years. Not just T5 but Traveller as a whole. Actually, it seems to have two parts, so I'm wondering if the first part is T5 specific and the second part is more general.

A smaller block of names may be upper tier contributors in the kickstarter. It ends with three names labeled as shipwrights.

However, if I'm right then there are a couple of names missing that I would have included.

My opinion is that FFE needs to hire a professional writer who knows Traveller to take T5 and turn it into a game you can play, with adventures and sourcebooks and such like. Or do it in-house, for that matter. But it needs to happen, and the fans need to know it's happening.

From the consumer's point of view I totally agree. But essentially you're talking about Marc setting up a company with staff and so on. Despite the size of the kickstarter I don't know how viable that would be.

Right now, the biggest question is: is the T5 book as published 'it', or is it a perhaps shaky start to something really, really good?

I think it's leaning towards the latter. We just need to see more secondary projects and get some momentum going. We've already been promised a players book (once the errata's done), deck plans, Galaxiad, and at some point BCS. Plus Gregory Lee is doing a campaign setting. What I'd like to see is a referee's book (with all the material left over from the players' book), referee screens, and a general setting sourcebook. Then see where we go from there.

 

[nats]

Basically I think the rules need revising in places and errata incorporating everywhere, and from these fixed rules there needs to be culled a short and simple (and well-presented & properly organised) rule set for each significant chunk of gaming. Ships book, combat book, beasties book, worldbuilding book etc.

There also need to be sourcebooks and adventures. Handing someone a giant toolkit and a pile of car components is one thing, but most folks prefer to just walk out their door and get in the car that's on the drive.

Exactly, well said. I look at T5 and wonder where it is going to go myself. Somebody needs to take the T5 rules and create a game out of it. At present it isnt a game, its the framework for a game.

If somebody was to take the T5 rules and create a set of CT-type concise rules books, expansion rules books and adventures out of it, with some excellent illustrations added, using an involving background along the lines of the Imperium of CT, I would probably buy lots and lots of them.

But I am not buying T5 the way it currently stands, for I have absolutely no interest in it.

 

[Hemdian]

Guys, if anyone here doubts that the Core Rulebook is awful, here's the fact that should prove that easily: people are selling the Kickstarter books at eBay.

I just did a quick search on eBay and found 5 sales. However, 3 of these are clearly shops (Troll and Toad Store, Hieroglyphs Books, and Discount Games Inc). Another (fanaticsbgm1) looks to be a private individual but also buys or sells 15 game related items a month. The last guy (steveyarb) seems to genuinely selling a kickstarter ... but we don't know if that's because he's "disappointed", fallen on hard times since the kickstarter began, or always intended to for whatever reason.

That's hardly any great rush. One, possibly two, individuals whose motivations are unknown doesn't prove anything. In fact I read this as hardly anyone is trying to get rid of their T5 book.

 

[nats]

I just did a quick search on eBay and found 5 sales

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Traveller...pt=UK_Toys_RolePlaying_RL&hash=item2c71eb70d3

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Traveller...pt=UK_Toys_RolePlaying_RL&hash=item4858efd2b0

 

[HG_B]

That's hardly any great rush. One, possibly two, individuals whose motivations are unknown doesn't prove anything. In fact I read this as hardly anyone is trying to get rid of their T5 book.

The ones who wanted to unloaded them earlier this summer...

 

[aramis]

The ones who wanted to unloaded them earlier this summer...

At one point, over a dozen were on offer on ebay, and Marc still had not finished shipping the KS books...

 

[thalassogen]

Right now, the biggest question is: is the T5 book as published 'it', or is it a perhaps shaky start to something really, really good?

Oh, please, please, let the answer be the latter one! Fingers crossed, Daumen gedrückt, praying to heaven.

 

[Hemdian]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Traveller...pt=UK_Toys_RolePlaying_RL&hash=item2c71eb70d3

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Traveller...pt=UK_Toys_RolePlaying_RL&hash=item4858efd2b0

Okay, I didn't search ebay.uk (or several of the other ebay country specific urls) but both of these appear to be shops ... Infinity Games has the wrong picture, and Games Quest is using the wrong picture and wrong description.

 

[Hemdian]

At one point, over a dozen were on offer on ebay, and Marc still had not finished shipping the KS books...

I don't go on ebay regularly so I missed that. How many were shops, and of the private sellers how many (a) had experienced financial difficulties between pledging in the KS and receiving the book, (b) always intended to keep the PDF and goodies while selling the book, or (c) selling the book because they didn't like it?

My point is that the claim that T5 being sold on ebay is proof that T5 is bad is an overstretched assumption. There may very well have been disappointed players selling an unwanted book on ebay but not all of the ebay sellers fall into this subset. Of the 7 current US+UK listings; 5 are shops and the 2 that aren't shops we still don't know short of asking them.

I am not saying there aren't problems. Nor am I saying there are no disappointed people walking away from this project. I'm just saying the ebay 'evidence' is meaningless without digging deeper.

 

[Ref00000]

E-Bay is for people to sell items on.
guessing 'intent' or 'product quality' without hard evidence ie; knowing or talking to the seller, face to face is kind of speculative at best. this is the Interwebz, folks. what gets said, done etc. reflects no particular correlation to anything at all.
I once had a client in my gamestore tell me how proud he was for getting kicked off ebay {in that incarnation} for selling the box from his new Wii for $300US. The box contained 'wee'. yep. a jar of his own liquid waste. he even said so in his description, which is why he got kicked off, not charged.
short answer, just because a gamer sells a book they helped get printed means nothing about content, quality or intent, perceived or otherwise.
Sure, 1st Ed./1st Printing of anything is going to be rough. at least it broke some records and got printed.

 

[aramis]

I don't go on ebay regularly so I missed that. How many were shops, and of the private sellers how many (a) had experienced financial difficulties between pledging in the KS and receiving the book, (b) always intended to keep the PDF and goodies while selling the book, or (c) selling the book because they didn't like it?

My point is that the claim that T5 being sold on ebay is proof that T5 is bad is an overstretched assumption. There may very well have been disappointed players selling an unwanted book on ebay but not all of the ebay sellers fall into this subset. Of the 7 current US+UK listings; 5 are shops and the 2 that aren't shops we still don't know short of asking them.

I am not saying there aren't problems. Nor am I saying there are no disappointed people walking away from this project. I'm just saying the ebay 'evidence' is meaningless without digging deeper.

None were shops, as far as I can tell, until the shops got theirs (and Marc noted in the KS that they were down the shipping priority list).

Only one announced around here that it was due to financial difficulties, and he got more than he'd pledged, and included ALL the goodies. (He probably kept a copy of the PDF, but included his CD.)

Shortly after him, several more were up. And as more shipped, more showed up on eBay. Several were explicitly "didn't like it" sales.

I don't feel robbed, myself, but was (1) dead broke when the KS hit and (2) already knew from the Beta that it was not going to be a game I'd run. I've got my CD as a beta participant. I've spent more on items I've found less interesting...

 

[Ector]

My point is that the claim that T5 being sold on ebay is proof that T5 is bad is an overstretched assumption. There may very well have been disappointed players selling an unwanted book on ebay but not all of the ebay sellers fall into this subset. Of the 7 current US+UK listings; 5 are shops and the 2 that aren't shops we still don't know short of asking them.

I am not saying there aren't problems. Nor am I saying there are no disappointed people walking away from this project. I'm just saying the ebay 'evidence' is meaningless without digging deeper.

Well, I must admit now that I've bought my book on eBay myself, along with the nobility patents, the CD-ROM and the dice Yes I know this may de-evaluate me in your eyes, but I had no other option, since the Kickstarter already ended when I've noticed it. And I wanted the noble title
Guess what? There were so many offers that I could CHOOSE which nobility patent to purchase There were books signed to the people by their names or their character names!!! Tell me, who on Earth can sell such a book for the measly $50-$100? A man who's starving to death? If I had a book signed to me, I wouldn't sell it even for $1000. But that's just me
I've decided that I want a title in Spinward Marches, and got it. My patents have no name and my book signed to the "holder of this volume", so I guess everything is legal...

 

[lspitz]

I don't feel robbed because in the end, I decided that I was not going to buy the book. As a participant in the Sewing Circle, I got to see how the manuscript was shaping up, and it was clear by last December that it wasn't going to get edited in the manner that it needed to properly organize the material. In light of that, I didn't feel that it was worth it to support the Kickstarter project. From the general reaction to the book post-release, I feel that I made a wise (if painful) decision not to purchase a signed first edition copy.

I devoted a lot of hours to reading drafts and providing feedback, with the idea that what I was doing would help T5 be the best possible release that it could be. I see many posters here echoing the things that I said needed work pre-publication. I do not feel like I had any impact. It makes me sad.

I'm not a business or marketing expert and I don't know what the next logical step for T5 should be. I hear some people calling for a revised edition of the Huge Black Book, and others advocating splitting the material up into smaller chunks and releasing separate books. I suppose either approach could work if done right.

 

[rancke]

Plus Gregory Lee is doing a campaign setting.

I'm rather curious to see how that turns out. I offered Mr. Lee to fact-check it for compatibility with previously published information, but was informed that since I hadn't contributed to the kickstarter I hadn't earned the privilege of helping with his book. I hope someone else with a good solid grounding in the lore of the Spinward Marches has.


Hans

 

[lspitz]

I'm rather curious to see how that turns out. I offered Mr. Lee to fact-check it for compatibility with previously published information, but was informed that since I hadn't contributed to the kickstarter I hadn't earned the privilege of helping with his book. I hope someone else with a good solid grounding in the lore of the Spinward Marches has.


Hans

Seriously? In my opinion, an offer of editorial help like that is far more valuable than donating a few bucks to a Kickstarter project.

 

[Licheking]

I bought my copy of the book from Ebay because i wasn't going to pay for the book in the KS and then another $30 just to have it shipped to me in the UK. I just didn't have the money to do it so it made more sense to get the lower KS package (the CDROM, Dice, TAS, Title and coins) and then buy the book from ebay and saved myself $30 shipping. Yes its signed to someone else, but that doesn't bother me i don't plan on selling it, as its likely to be falling apart in a few years anyway and hopefully a second printing will have been done and i can pick that one up.

 

[Hemdian]

Well, I must admit now that I've bought my book on eBay myself, along with the nobility patents, the CD-ROM and the dice Yes I know this may de-evaluate me in your eyes, but I had no other option, since the Kickstarter already ended when I've noticed it. And I wanted the noble title

I think you mean "devalue" and no it doesn't. And I appologise if I've given the impression it might. In fact I've been thinking I need a couple of extra copies of the BBB for use at the gaming table, and trying to decide if I want pristine copies or KS copies (if I can get the other KS items too). The former could be ebay, the latter would have to be ebay.

I was just trying (and evidently failing) to nip some excess negativity in the bud ... given that there are enough genuine reasons to be a bit negative. (And I guess I missed the 'big ebay sell off'.)