Fixing Book 2 Starship Economics

[Fritz_Brown]

OK.

Well, Aramis, that ought to quiet things in here a bit..... [cricket sounds]

 

[OIT]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
Thanks; I just ordered them. You seem awfully familiar with merchant operations. Do you do that in the real world?

--Ty

Not anymore. Briefly as a young man, but most of my sea time has actually been on greyhulls (Navy). I can, however, confirm Capt. Hardberger's impressions of Haiti, and can throw in a couple stories about sub-saharan Africa as well.

 

[aramis]

And it is heresy, Chris.

With Bk2 (and maybe supp 7), but none of the other sources, and MWM's Blatant Refusal to go per parsec (To wit, reading the TML, and seeing you make this very argument before), T4 was STILL per Jump. In fact, only one traveller ruleset has had per parsec pricing, and it's arguable about it being canon: GT. (Which, BTW, is neither truly per parsec nor per jump, but a per parsec and per jump component in the pricing... much like modern airfares.)

Rampant speculation can make Bk2 work with NO CHANGES. (It does change the universe built up around it...)

Speculation is the whole basis of wholesale... why are you so adamant that it can't be the primary motivator of trade, Chris?

Especially, since, given the low revenue range, the average trip you can get an average of 400 KCr+ base value... so pulling a net +1 sell over buy (after brokers, which is effectively a 3 point difference with +2 brokers) is quite worthy; it puts revenue at 40+KCr/ton average from spec. Now, assuming one will only buy at advantage, but brokers get paid anyway... this eats into it, but still, anythinng better than 10K per revenue ton is going to motivate merchants far more than the under 2K/ton. Even with per parsec, Bk 2 still gives massive reasons to speculate... since even simply taking extant rates per parsec, rather than hybrid rates ala GT, gives one not better than KCr10 per ton on haulage, on J6!

BTW, a Tramp at J3, following the spec, can make MASSIVE bucks... because, even with the scarcity of In worlds, one is seldom more than 6 Pc form an In world...

One other thing: TTB, page 104:
"A trader with cargo space available and free capital with which to speculate may seek out suitable goods to buy and sell."

Not "A ship." A "Trader." I've always read this as "A person engaged in trading," and thus allowed Type A's to have multiple people (often NPC crew-members) searching for cargos while the PC's go find odd jobs. If one allows this, then there is even MORE reason to speculate, as you can then load a merchant with nought but spec, and by having multiple cargos, reduce overall risk. (Of course, if it goes all bad, it can break you. AS did the Black Monday Correction break many many investors....)

"Fixing" Bk 2 can be one of two things: finding the perspective where it makes sense, or changing it to fit some preconceived notions. I chose the former; many of you chose the latter.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

BTW, where are the maintenance/replacement costs for ship bits found? (CT, mainly, but anywhere but GURPS would be fine.) I know I'm just reading right by it......

 

[aramis]

BTW, where are the maintenance/replacement costs for ship bits found? (CT, mainly, but anywhere but GURPS would be fine.) I know I'm just reading right by it......

Maintenance: Bk2 page 8

3. Routine Maintenance. Annually, a starship should be given a complete overhaul in order to insure that it is kept in good working order. Such maintenance costs 0.1% (1/1000th) of the cash price of the ship, and requires two weeks at a class A or B starport. The owner must make provision for payment of the maintenance fee when it comes due. Crew members generally take their vacations at this time, but must s t i l l be paid. The ship owners must make provision for the expected loss of revenue while the ship is out of service.​

Repairs: page 34-35

Repair Parts: Most malfunctioning or damaged items in a vessel can be temporarily repaired from the stock of emergency materials in the ship's stores. Malfunctions usually occur in terms of a specific assembly (ship's computer, jump drive, etc.), and the cost of the repair is based on the cost of the original assembly. After determining the cost of the assembly (from the component cost section of these rules), roll two dice: this indicates the cost of replacement of the item in 10% increments; allow a DM -2 if the repair installation will be made by ship's crew rather than a shipyard. Because the repair cost can run to 120% in some cases, complete replacement of the item is sometimes cheaper. In the case of minor malfunctions, DMs may be applied to the repair cost throw as considered appropriate. Repair parts cost of 0% is considered to be inconsequential.​

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Thanks, Aramis! *grumble, grumble*

Anything on bits that aren't, say, a whole J-drive? Or the entire bridge, but a component instead? I suppose I could take a percentage of the original cost.

 

[Timerover51]

Maintenance: Bk2 page 8

3. Routine Maintenance. Annually, a starship should be given a complete overhaul in order to insure that it is kept in good working order. Such maintenance costs 0.1% (1/1000th) of the cash price of the ship, and requires two weeks at a class A or B starport. The owner must make provision for payment of the maintenance fee when it comes due. Crew members generally take their vacations at this time, but must s t i l l be paid. The ship owners must make provision for the expected loss of revenue while the ship is out of service.​

Repairs: page 34-35

Repair Parts: Most malfunctioning or damaged items in a vessel can be temporarily repaired from the stock of emergency materials in the ship's stores. Malfunctions usually occur in terms of a specific assembly (ship's computer, jump drive, etc.), and the cost of the repair is based on the cost of the original assembly. After determining the cost of the assembly (from the component cost section of these rules), roll two dice: this indicates the cost of replacement of the item in 10% increments; allow a DM -2 if the repair installation will be made by ship's crew rather than a shipyard. Because the repair cost can run to 120% in some cases, complete replacement of the item is sometimes cheaper. In the case of minor malfunctions, DMs may be applied to the repair cost throw as considered appropriate. Repair parts cost of 0% is considered to be inconsequential.​

Do not grumble too loudly, Fritz. In the real world, a ship overhaul runs into the millions of dollars, and can run between 2% and 5% of the original price of the ship. Even basic maintenance on a yearly basic can run about $500,000.

Maintenance under Traveller is even less than dirt cheap.

 

[aramis]

Do not grumble too loudly, Fritz. In the real world, a ship overhaul runs into the millions of dollars, and can run between 2% and 5% of the original price of the ship. Even basic maintenance on a yearly basic can run about $500,000.

Maintenance under Traveller is even less than dirt cheap.

$500K on a $2B+ warship. well less than traveller's annual maintenance.

 

[Timerover51]

$500K on a $2B+ warship. well less than traveller's annual maintenance.

I was thinking commercial ships, on the order of Free Traders, as you are talking economics. I figure that on commercial cargo ships, a minimum annual maintenance cost of between 2% to 5% of the original ship's cost can be justified. For passenger ships, I would say between 5% and 10% per year.

Warships do not factor into economics. Refits for warships can run up to 50% of original cost, depending on what they are doing. Just yearly maintenance on a warship might run 10% of its cost.

 

[Mithras]

Aramis, I like the emphasis on speculation myself. I have no idea why, but I try to change as little as possible in the CT rules regarding stats, numbers and prices. I like to look for a fix that is based on interpretation, rather than changing all the numbers to fit the real world. I think speculation does that, it's why MWM put in that big list of speculative cargoes, after all....

 

[Timerover51]

Aramis, I like the emphasis on speculation myself. I have no idea why, but I try to change as little as possible in the CT rules regarding stats, numbers and prices. I like to look for a fix that is based on interpretation, rather than changing all the numbers to fit the real world. I think speculation does that, it's why MWM put in that big list of speculative cargoes, after all....

I figure that basic cargo and passenger rates pay the bills, speculation provides your profits to do other things.

 

[Murph]

Just change jump fuel from 10% to 5%, and all of a sudden your marginal ships can turn a (small) profit. Also I make jumps instant with your travel time getting from the jump point into the system to unload your passengers/cargo. See T5 or Pournelle's Mote in Gods Eye for an example.

 

[Timerover51]

Just change jump fuel from 10% to 5%, and all of a sudden your marginal ships can turn a (small) profit. Also I make jumps instant with your travel time getting from the jump point into the system to unload your passengers/cargo. See T5 or Pournelle's Mote in Gods Eye for an example.

I am looking at a flat 5 tons fuel per jump factor, but also look at the fact that nowhere does the economics reflect insurance costs for the ship, and the maintenance factor is far too low at 0.1% of the cost of a ship. I am also looking at a factor for cargo of 5 tons mass per Traveller displacement ton, with cargo being charged at 1000 credits per mass ton, unless very low volume. A lot depends on the degree in which you are willing to go in working on the starship economics, for a drastic change or just a tweak.

 

[rancke]

I am looking at a flat 5 tons fuel per jump factor, but also look at the fact that nowhere does the economics reflect insurance costs for the ship, and the maintenance factor is far too low at 0.1% of the cost of a ship. I am also looking at a factor for cargo of 5 tons mass per Traveller displacement ton, with cargo being charged at 1000 credits per mass ton, unless very low volume. A lot depends on the degree in which you are willing to go in working on the starship economics, for a drastic change or just a tweak.

Unless you can find fellow Traveller fans who agree with your chosen figures, it also depends on how much time and energy you have to devote to calculating all the figures involved by yourself alone. Time and effort, mind you, that you don't think would be more profitably spent on development of other parts of the setting.

Also, basing a system of starship economics on different fuel consumption and charging for mass instead of volume isn't going to fix Book 2 economics, no matter how excellent the result.

If I make up a bunch of stuff that fits my universe but not yours, and if you make up a bunch of stuff that fits your universe but not mine, then we each have one bunch of stuff.

But if I make up a bunch of stuff the fits both our universes, and you make up a bunch of stuff that fits both our universes, then we each have two bunches of stuff.

Which is the biggest reason I prefer to keep my TU as close to the OTU as possible. It increases the amount of other peoples' stuff that I can use.

And just to head off one obvious retort: Sure, there are aspects of the OTU that flat out don't work for me. In such cases I do deviate from the OTU -- after all, if I can't use the basic idea, I wouldn't be able to use anything anyone worked out based on that idea anyway.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

If you are looking more at tweaking the economics, the best fix I have come up with it figuring 5 tons mass per Traveller Displacement ton for cargo and then charging 1000 credits per ton for the mass of the cargo. That allows you to operate at a profit with less than a full ship, but also still makes speculation quite important. If the cargo hold of your Trader is not full, then you have no revenue from that space, and even a small profit is worthwhile.

 

[aramis]

If you are looking more at tweaking the economics, the best fix I have come up with it figuring 5 tons mass per Traveller Displacement ton for cargo and then charging 1000 credits per ton for the mass of the cargo. That allows you to operate at a profit with less than a full ship, but also still makes speculation quite important. If the cargo hold of your Trader is not full, then you have no revenue from that space, and even a small profit is worthwhile.

You don't even need that much; in fact, that will result in about huge profit margins.. The Bk2 J1 ships can make a profit at book prices.
J2 only comes up Cr150 shy at freight, so spec can make beaucoup profit on 200Td and larger.

Going 50% extra for J2 freight works nice, too. Solves the J2 issue.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=27116