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Fixing MGT's Armor

Golan2072

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I'm having a problem with the MGT armor rules. The thing is that most armor types presented on the p.87 table are quite weak in comparison to weapons, especially with Effect added to their damage.

Look at this that way: most pistols do 3D6-3 damage. On average, a D6 result is 3.5; 3D6 on average is 10-11 (let's say 11), and thus 3D6-3 is around 8 points of damage on average before applying Effect. Cloth armor, which is the equivalent of an RL Kevlar vest, stops only 3 points of damage - hardly stopping a pistol bullet even with Effect 0 and an average roll. A dagger does 1D6+2, which is on average 5-6 points of damage even with Effect 0 - and Jack Armor, which is supposed to be helpful against melee attacks, has only Armor 1, which is hardly effective against it.

Therefore I suggest the following armor values to replace the ones in the p.87 table:

Jack (TL1): 3
Mesh (TL6): 6
Flak Jacket (TL7): 8
Flak Jacket (TL8): 10
Cloth (TL7): 10
Cloth (TL10): 12
Vacc Suit (TL8): 10
Vacc Suit (TL12): 13
Vacc Suit (TL14): 15
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL8): 12
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL9): 13
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL12): 15
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL13): 16
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL14): 17
Ablat (TL9): 5 (18 against lasers)
Reflec (TL10): 0 (24 against lasers)
Combat Armor (TL11): 15
Combat Armor (TL12): 18
Combat Armor (TL14): 20
Battle Dress (TL13): 18
Battle Dress (TL14): 20

Rationale:
- Jack should stop the average damage of an unarmed attack (1d6) with Effect 0, that is 3.5 points of damage on average. It has very minor effect on more powerful weapons, especially slug-throwers. It could block a bullet if you roll minimal damage (3) and have an effect of 0 - representing a bullet passing near you and scratching you. An average rifle shot with Effect 0 - 10.5 damage - would still reduce an average character's Endurance (7) to zero even if he was wearing Jack. The same goes to heavier melee weapons as well.

- Mesh should stop a club's or a dagger's average damage (Effect 0) more or less completely. A club does 2d6 (average 7), a dagger does 1d6+2 (average 5.5). So armor 6 works; and it also provides some protection against bullets, especially pistol ones.

- Flack Jacket is a watered-down version of Cloth. It should stop completely a pistol round with Effect 0 (3d6-3, average damage 7.5), and thus is pretty effective against melee weapons (many of which do 2d6 damage, average 7). At TL8 it could stop a rifle round with average damage and Effect 0 (3d6, average 10.5) or a pistol round with Effect 2 and average damage.

- Cloth should stop a rifle round (3d6, average 10.5) with Effect 0. It should also be very effective against most melee weapons and quite effective against pistols. At TL10 it could stop a rifle round with average damage and Effect 2.

- Vacc Suit at TL8 is similar to Cloth at TL7. At TL12, a Vacc Suit is a bit better than Cloth at TL10, but not by much. At TL14, it gives quite good protection.

- Hostile Environment Vacc Suit is a bit better than Vacc Suit or Cloth of similar TL, but is still less effective than Combat armor/BD.

- Ablat should be slightly less effective than Mesh against non-laser damage, and slightly less effective than Reflec against lasers (but still better than TL11 Combat Armor/BD). It should block the maximum damage of a laser pistol (3d6, max damage 18) with effect 0

- Reflec offers the best anti-laser defense around. Period. Never, ever attempt to shoot a laser at it - you'll rarely cause any damage. It should block the maximum damage of a laser carbine (4d6, max 24) at Effect 0.

- Combat Armor (TL11) should stop maximum pistol damage with Effect 0 (3d6-3, max 15). At TL12 it should stop a rifle round with maximum damage and Effect 0 (3d6, max 18). At TL14 it should stop a rifle shot with Effect 2 (20). Battle Dress has the same armor levels of Combat Armor at the same TL but is also powered.

Animal Armor
Animal armor as given on p.71 should be increased accordingly to the personal armor changes in order to keep everything on the same scale. Armor Rating 1 for animals is the equivalent of Jack and thus should now be 3; Armor 2 is the equivalent of Mesh and should now be 6; Armor 3 is the equivalent of Cloth (but should be the equivalent of a Flack Jacket) and should now be 8; Armor 4 is the equivalent of Flack Jacket (but should be the equivalent of Cloth) and should now be 10; and Armor 5 is the equivalent of high-TL Flack Jacket or Cloth and should now be rated at 12.
 
Hi,

Hi,

I guess one additional thing to consider is how much of a persons body would be covered by each type of protection, as even if a "Flack Jacket ... should stop completely a pistol round with Effect 0" or "Cloth should stop a rifle round" if you get hit somewhere not covered you could still be injured, possibly even severely and it would be nice if any proposed changes could account for this.

Regards

PF
 
The rub is that ballistic cloth armor aka the bullet proof vest does not stop high velocity rifle rounds. IIRC a bullet proof vest without inserts will not stop a close range 22 magnum round. high velocity + small area of penitrationdefeats cloth. regardless as has been pointed out even if the cloth armor stops the bullet it does not stop the kenetic energy from crushing ribs and playing havok with the internals.

Flak jacket will not stop a pistol at normal engagement range IRL. The flack jacket is designed to protect a soldier from fragments from grenades and what not but is near useless against direct fire from modern small arms. M16 will rip you and your flak jacket to shreds at three hundred yards.

Mail/mesh is absolute rubbish against even the most primitive firearms. thats why we stopped wearing armor here on earth. even given space age materials and manufacture in traveller it has to be accounted that fire arms and especially their projectiles would have kept pace with armor development.

Vacc suit and HEsuit same as cloth unless they have rigid inserts

Combat armor has no comparison to real life but I would guess that a person could not carry enough armor protection un assisted to with stand a contemporary weapon. as is the combat armor in MGT is great against small arms such as pistols and pretty good against rifles while still having to view a rifle as a threat.

Battledress i would say is much the same but since it is powered can carry much more armor.

In closing I think the standard MGT armor values are about right and they have worked well in the games we have got in so far. I would worry that over powering armor will lead to longer more dragged out combats or a proliferation of PGMPs. either is not a very good option IMO.
 
I would worry that over powering armor will lead to longer more dragged out combats or a proliferation of PGMPs. either is not a very good option IMO.
No need to worry. My armor values have been tested in actual play and they slow combat only slightly; and a pistol or rifle are still useful against someone wearing Cloth, especially if the shooter is good (and thus likely to have a high Effect).

---

If you want more differentiation between pistol and rifle rounds, you could easily use T4-style armor instead: armor absorbs damage dice; each die absorbed causes only 1 damage (unless you're wearing something rigid such as HEV, Combat Armor or Battle Dress, in that cause absorbed dice are completely ignored); weapons have penetration (i.e. each point of penetration ignores one armor point); pistols do 3d6 damage like rifles (but have far lower penetration); and add Effect to damage after you deal with absorbed dice and roll the remaining dice.

In that case, armor values would be:
Jack 1
Mesh 2
Flack 3
Cloth/Vacc 4
HEV 5
Combat Armor/BD 12

Penetration values would be:
Blunt melee or unarmed 0
Good melee blades 1
Pistols 2
Shotguns 0
Rifles 3
 
I guess one additional thing to consider is how much of a persons body would be covered by each type of protection, as even if a "Flack Jacket ... should stop completely a pistol round with Effect 0" or "Cloth should stop a rifle round" if you get hit somewhere not covered you could still be injured, possibly even severely and it would be nice if any proposed changes could account for this.

Agreed

I don't have MGT but from what I've read on these forums there is no location determination for hits and corresponding damage calculations for hit location - please correct me if I'm wrong.

So, a hit has to average all the possible locations you could hit someone and how much armor is there and how much damage you then take.

Personally, I think taking time to aim should have a big effect on chance to hit and damage since you will be carefully aiming for an optimum location to hit your target.
 
cloth armor

The rub is that ballistic cloth armor aka the bullet proof vest does not stop high velocity rifle rounds. IIRC a bullet proof vest without inserts will not stop a close range 22 magnum round. high velocity + small area of penitration defeats cloth.
Mostly agreed.
Military rifles and ammo have been designed to pierce an enemy's helmet, a bulletproof vest is almost like holding a phone book up to your chest. (Factoid: the military is having trouble in iraq because in close quarters these high velocity rounds just rip right through their target and do not have stopping power [hollow points are not allowed due to treaties- kind of silly, you can drop a bomb on them but you can't use a hollow point])
But we have to allow for the possibility that you are using armor inserts too.

regardless as has been pointed out even if the cloth armor stops the bullet it does not stop the kenetic energy from crushing ribs and playing havok with the internals.
Again I agree.
(Factoid: The damage that can be caused by a bullet that doesn't pierce your armor is sometimes called cavitation and can break your ribs, cause internal bleeding and generally mess up your day)
 
Flak jacket will not stop a pistol at normal engagement range IRL. The flack jacket is designed to protect a soldier from fragments from grenades and what not but is near useless against direct fire from modern small arms. M16 will rip you and your flak jacket to shreds at three hundred yards.
More agreement from me.

The label inside my flack jacket says it will protect me from "indirect low velocity projectiles". (yes, I'm just joking that it says that on a label)
 
Jack should stop the average damage of an unarmed attack
I don't know jack. Seriously, what is jack armor?

Mesh should stop a club's or a dagger's average damage (Effect 0) more or less completely.

Mesh? Does this refer to Chain mail or ring mail?
A TL6 Mesh vs a Dagger yes, but do you want to put some mesh armor over your head and let me hit you with a baseball bat? See image at this LINK

In general I totally agree with the reason you want to make modifications to the rules and applaud you for giving it some thought and trying.

IMO there are too many weapons/ammo/armor variations so any simple to use combat system will not be extremely realistic. The alternative, a large number of table lookups and die rolls, would be quite cumbersome.

Take a look at one of my other posts on combat LINK
 
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I don't know jack. Seriously, what is jack armor?
Essentially a heavy leather (or synth-leather) jacket.

Mesh? Does this refer to Chain mail or ring mail?
A TL6 Mesh vs a Dagger yes, but do you want to put some mesh armor over your head and let me hit you with a baseball bat? See image at this LINK
Mesh is a Traveller invention, essentially a jacket woven with a metal mesh (not medieval armor but something more modern); mechanically speaking, I'd also include futuristic spider-weave armors (or any similar thin, high-tensile-strength armor) in this category. And MGT lacks a penetration system (or individual weapon DMs as per CT) and thus blunt weapons and blades perform the same against Mesh; in a penetration or individual-DM system, yes, by all means I'd give these weapons different performances vs. Mesh.

In general I totally agree with the reason you want to make modifications to the rules and applaud you for giving it some thought and trying.
Thanks :)

IMO there are too many weapons/ammo/armor variations so any simple to use combat system will not be extremely realistic. The alternative, a large number of table lookups and die rolls, would be quite cumbersome.
Quoted for truth. Any RPG combat system is an abstraction and any abstraction is, by being an abstraction, not 100% realistic.
 
Having had a deeper look at the armour descriptions, Cloth and Flak are not mixed up as I originally thought.

Flack is a flak jacket, not a flak vest, not a bullet-proof vest. It's a heavy duty jacket that covers the torso and arms, and is bulky.

Cloth on the other hand is lighter and less bulky, and can be worn routinely under clothing, and at higher tech levels is indistinguishable. It is more expensive than Flak but lighter.

I guess the kind of battle dress armour we see in Iraq is more of the Flak Jacket kind, rather than Cloth.
 
P.87: "Cloth (TL7): A heavy duty suit tailored from ballistic cloth" vs. "Flack Jacket (TL7): A less expensive version of ballistic cloth"...
 
Less expensive, but heavier, and "the bulky flak jacket is an unmistakably military garment."

Compare with: "Cloth armour is highly useful and versatile - it can be effectively concealed under normal clothing"... "at TL10 cloth is... indistinguishable from ordinary clothes".

Cloth costs more because it is more discrete, not because it necessarily offers better protection.
 
Less expensive, but heavier, and "the bulky flak jacket is an unmistakably military garment."

Compare with: "Cloth armour is highly useful and versatile - it can be effectively concealed under normal clothing"... "at TL10 cloth is... indistinguishable from ordinary clothes".

Cloth costs more because it is more discrete, not because it necessarily offers better protection.

Even if you don't go for all this technical junk, you may want to check out the links throughout because they could add some visual flavor to your game.

You can continue to debate the the differences in Traveller but for those of you that like to equate todays equipment to Travellers: If Traveller cloth armor and flak jacket are comparable in features to our RL versions (remember to check those Traveler tech levels folks - in the book I just took a quick look at cloth armor is tech L-6); the "cloth armor" / (Body Armor) provides more protection against ballistics per square inch. Flak Jackets are design to protect against much slower velocity artillery and grenade shrapnel. This fact is compounded because Body Armor can, and in any planned tactical situation definitely would, include additional armor inserts. Note: the two links I have for the Body armor are 2 different sites.

Even with these armor plates (there are a wide variety and I'm sure I'm not aware of them all) BA manufacturers only state that it "can" protect you from rifle fire. Of note it is bullet "resistant" not bullet proof (maybe thats a movie term - ballistic vest is a more appropriate term than bullet proof vest,and its shorter to type and say too!). In reality it is fairly good at small arms protection. I have never had to test this personally, thank goodness, because I've seen Body Armor with the armor plates (I don't recall which one) being hung over a post and a high power rifle round going completely through it. This was a while ago so I don't know if I'm remembering this correctly, but I believe it went through both the front and the back. I know the "tank killer" rifle definitely did. But when your firing a depleted uranium armor-piercing shell (think A-10), I would expect that.

People often try to relate current technology to Traveller technology. Here is a point to consider: a TL4 revolver here on earth today could very well be quite different from a TL4 revolver built on a world that developed entirely separately and this might explain away any inconsistencies you see in weapons data. Or maybe a stretch here, due to the passage of time and the mixture of cultures, maybe terms like "Flak" mean something different in Traveller than it does to us.

Possibly TL10 cloth is similar to nanoparticle suits or liquid armor that becomes rigid enough to protect the wearer as soon as a kinetic energy threshold is surpassed. This technology is here today! I am just guessing based on the slim amount of info I have, or rather the fact that I don't have any information yet from my "sources" (or should I use the Traveller term "contacts") but I believe claims that this product could be available soon are an exaggeration because it takes the military a long time to test, aprove, and get funding. Without military or law enforcement demand, Its hard to imagine there would be any production of this product other than for field testing data. I do not even know if nanoparticle suits or liquid armor provides enough protection to replace the current body armor or maybe its just meant to be worn underneath for added protection. But it is exciting that at least prototypes of this exist.

For those of you that like all kinds of real world data here is a Ballistics Chart and there is all kinds of info at the Guns & Ammo website. I got nostalgic just going over there to get the link.

Just for fun, those of you that have an interest, try to make up Traveller info for this gun. Range, damage....
GAgr1207_011408B.jpg
 
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Just for fun, those of you that have an interest, try to make up Traveller info for this gun. Range, damage....
GAgr1207_011408B.jpg

This looks like a "Duck's Foot" pistol. The stats of which have already been done in Traveller's Aide #1 for both CT and T20. Generaly for CT its 3D at short range and treated as a 3 round burst.
 
So is something like dragonskin ballistic cloth or a variant flak jacket?

Since Traveller has always had a more linear TL progression than reality has since shown I would argue that rather than cloth, the armor used in Iraq is more like TL-11 Combat Armor.

Cloth is more like the IIIA vest I wear at work, plus the heavier armors the tac team wears. I can add a trauma plate to my vest that might protect me from .30 rifle ammo if the shooter is considerate enough to shoot the 10"x6" plate. Without the plate it is classical Traveller cloth armor. BTW: the indenting from non-penetrating rounds isn't nearly what you might think. Older armor was more prone to it, but the newer fabrics and weave methods have made it so rigid on impact that if you punch it with your fist you can see and feel the hardening effect. It kinda hurts the hand.


The armor used in Iraq is getting heavier and more intricate all the time and uses a lot of multiple layers incorporating ceramics and ballistic weaves. Dragonskin in particular is a sandwiched layer of interlocking ceramics in between several layers of ballistic cloth.

I would argue that that fits the definition of Traveller combat armor if you are not locked into the idea that combat always has to look like something out of Star Wars...at least at the lower tech levels. After all, there are often many solutions to solving the same problem.
 
Since Traveller has always had a more linear TL progression than reality has since shown I would argue that rather than cloth, the armor used in Iraq is more like TL-11 Combat Armor.

Cloth is more like the IIIA vest I wear at work, plus the heavier armors the tac team wears. I can add a trauma plate to my vest that might protect me from .30 rifle ammo if the shooter is considerate enough to shoot the 10"x6" plate. Without the plate it is classical Traveller cloth armor. BTW: the indenting from non-penetrating rounds isn't nearly what you might think. Older armor was more prone to it, but the newer fabrics and weave methods have made it so rigid on impact that if you punch it with your fist you can see and feel the hardening effect. It kinda hurts the hand.


The armor used in Iraq is getting heavier and more intricate all the time and uses a lot of multiple layers incorporating ceramics and ballistic weaves. Dragonskin in particular is a sandwiched layer of interlocking ceramics in between several layers of ballistic cloth.

I would argue that that fits the definition of Traveller combat armor if you are not locked into the idea that combat always has to look like something out of Star Wars...at least at the lower tech levels. After all, there are often many solutions to solving the same problem.

Unfortunately, dragonskin is not the standard body armor in Iraq.
 
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