Fleet Jumping

[dean]

All of which are exactly known for surveyed systems, and thus should be part of the pre-jump calculations, and thus are known quantities.

So for a group of ships jumping from the same point in one system to the same point in another system, there should be no variation between jump times.

So, every Toyota Celica off the production lines have exactly the same 0-60 acceleration times?

Every attack SSN built with the same internal machinery has the exact same performance characteristics?

No, they don't. Close, but not exactly. Multiply any small variance over light years and it could add up.

So, there could very well be a small amount of variability in different ships' times, I think especially so if they are various types and sizes, with drives of different capacity and manufacture. Not saying it ought to be significant but it certainly could exist.

And my distance example was to illustrate why there might be differences in time from jump-to-jump, not why fleets might arrive out of synch. But point taken, it would all be know values and included in the jump calc.

Not trying to justify anything in particular, just being devil's advocate a little.

 

[rancke]

I just have a very large problem with jump requiring a week regardless of distance, and then verying that for whatever reason. Breaks my belief way too much, especially for two ships leaving from the same place at the same time to the same destination.

Well, if you have a problem with it, don't use that rule. If you don't like it, don't listen to the author when he elucidates his intentions. If you don't like it, ignore subsequent rules sets that likewise illustrate the principle. Go ahead and ignore it, with my blessings (not that you need them).

In the meantime, those of us who don't have a problem with it will stick to the commonly accepted version.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Well, if you have a problem with it, don't use that rule. If you don't like it, don't listen to the author when he elucidates his intentions. If you don't like it, ignore subsequent rules sets that likewise illustrate the principle. Go ahead and ignore it, with my blessings (not that you need them).

In the meantime, those of us who don't have a problem with it will stick to the commonly accepted version.


Hans

For the record, do the CT rules explicitly state that two ships jumping together will arrive at different times and locations?

I know it is clearly implied in the MT core book and (I believe) explicitly stated elsewhere ... but does CT explicitly contradict the interpretation that the variables differ from hour to hour , but are the same for two ships travelling the same route at the same time? I remember the issue being more personal interpretation in The Traveller Book (where I started playing).

168 hrs +/- 10% is a little too subject to interpretation for a difinitive answer to such an important issue.

 

[rancke]

For the record, do the CT rules explicitly state that two ships jumping together will arrive at different times and locations?

I know it is clearly implied in the MT core book and (I believe) explicitly stated elsewhere ... but does CT explicitly contradict the interpretation that the variables differ from hour to hour , but are the same for two ships travelling the same route at the same time?

I don't think so. But I don't really care. I don't consider that the game, much less the Third Imperium setting, ended when they stopped publishing CT rules. If the CT rules are ambiguous, I consider the MT rules and commentaries to resolve that ambiguity. Otherwise all you have is a rule question that can't be resolved, and what's the use of that?

This is The Fleet, a board located under General Traveller Discussions. To me, thatr means that CT rules are no better (though no worse either) than MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and MGT when it comes to inferring how thing do and do not work. Nostalgia aside, there's nothing special about CT, except perhaps that it's only a 1st generation RPG and hasn't had the same amount of thought devoted to it as the later ones have. :devil:


Hans

 

[TashaG]

The Sector Fleet Supplement published by Mongoose (previously published by Comstar/Avenger games under the name Grand Fleet). The PDF is currently 8.99 at Drive thru RPG

This supplement talks specifically about the problems that fleets have appearing in after leaving jump space. There's talk about Squadron Jump systems that basically sync Jump plots. Emergence from Jump space for fleets using the system are within one hour of one another.

While the original version of the supplement was questionable from a canon point of view, the new version Grand Fleet is an official Part of the Mongoose Traveller Universe.

I guess the last word will be when Traveller 5 finally ships and we read in those books what Marc thinks of the whole thing.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

All of which are exactly known for surveyed systems, and thus should be part of the pre-jump calculations, and thus are known quantities.

So for a group of ships jumping from the same point in one system to the same point in another system, there should be no variation between jump times.

except, the planets are in two different locations since the last time someone did that jump. they have moved, relitive to the star, and the stars are moving relitive to the galatic centre, which in itself is moving, as well.

I would aggree that two ships, of the same type, jumping at the same time and using the same jump co-ordinates would take should take the same time, but i can see arguements for why it would vary even then.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

i just have a very large problem with jump requiring a week regardless of distance, and then verying that for whatever reason. Breaks my belief way too much, especially for two ships leaving from the same place at the same time to the same destination.

jtas#24:

jump takes 168 hours (±10%) to complete. This time is related to the nature of the alternate space being travelled in, and to the energy applied. Where time is a variable in travel in normal space, energy consumption is a variable in alternate space; time is a constant. Consequently, distance depends on the energy applied.​

 

[sfchbryan]

I guess the last word will be when Traveller 5 finally ships and we read in those books what Marc thinks of the whole thing.

Which will probably be about 1 week after John Astell puts the finishing touches on Europa.

 

[TashaG]

Which will probably be about 1 week after John Astell puts the finishing touches on Europa.

I would quip something about Duke Nukem forever being released, but it's nearly ready to go...

 

[BlackBat242]

except, the planets are in two different locations since the last time someone did that jump. they have moved, relitive to the star, and the stars are moving relitive to the galatic centre, which in itself is moving, as well.

I would aggree that two ships, of the same type, jumping at the same time and using the same jump co-ordinates would take should take the same time, but i can see arguements for why it would vary even then.

And the exact movements of the stars and planets relative to both the rest of the galaxy and to each other are part of the standard astronomical survey data, and therefore are available for input into the jump calculations, allowing the navigator to determine jump time in advance with a high degree of precision.

Those changes, when compared to the distance to the next star 1 jump over, is far, far smaller than the 10% variation many are insisting on for each jump... so they would not cause anywhere near that much time variation... more like minutes instead of hours.

 

[rancke]

And the exact movements of the stars and planets relative to both the rest of the galaxy and to each other are part of the standard astronomical survey data, and therefore are available for input into the jump calculations, allowing the navigator to determine jump time in advance with a high degree of precision.

Those changes, when compared to the distance to the next star 1 jump over, is far, far smaller than the 10% variation many are insisting on for each jump... so they would not cause anywhere near that much time variation... more like minutes instead of hours.

Things works differently in jumpspace. Unless you have a jumpspace textbook that says differently, that's just the way it works.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

jump takes 168 hours (±10%) to complete. This time is related to the nature of the alternate space being travelled in, and to the energy applied. Where time is a variable in travel in normal space, energy consumption is a variable in alternate space; time is a constant. Consequently, distance depends on the energy applied.
-Marc Miller

I don't care for the official rule, personally, but it is the official rule and it is not self contradictory.

Think of it this way, thoretically, shooting 10 shots from a rifle mounted to a benchrest in a range should produce only one hole in the target. All of the conditions are the same. The rifle has not changed. The aim has not changed. The bullets are the same size and weight. However, the reality is that the bullets will create a cluster of holes and the greater the range, the greater the spread will be.

Since the two ships do not have exactly the same power plant (however similar they are) and are not entering exactly the same jump bubble, they will cluster on arrival in a grouping centered on 168 hours +/- 10%.

I hope that helps somone visualize it.

 

[BillDowns]

Andrew, thanks for posting the actual quote. I will contemplate it.

Probably won't change my mind, though, 'cause I'm a stubborn old cuss

 

[shadowcat20]

I like the rifle comparison... been there done that and will do it again.

Ships may be made to the same specs but different building yards, battle damage, random spare parts, engineers, and many other factors will not make them all work the same. It is the same with the rifle comparison. Sammi specs may be the same for all rounds but brass thickness, powder variations, projectile weight differences, and even barrel temp and fouling will make sure all is not the same.

Distance is also a factor I think, so not only will they arrive strung out over a roughly 32 hour time span but they will be scattered different distances from the jump point. The 100 dia rule means they will not hit each other IMHO but the fleet should condense as ships come in to reduce the scatter a bit.

Was going through my JTAS last night and the best article I could find was in #24.

We all are free to do as we please but this way feels more right to me for my TU.

EDIT:

Just went through T5 and found this tidbit.

Squadron Maneuvers. Highly tuned drives in a squadron
of ships, along with highly trained crews, can make their
emergence from jump very close to the same time (within
about a 5 hour window). Normal military is a little less tight but it also stated that 2 ships jumping at the same time will appear the same distance from each other. Wonder how that works with the time lag when some ships move after jumping in?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I like the rifle comparison... been there done that and will do it again.

Ships may be made to the same specs but different building yards, battle damage, random spare parts, engineers, and many other factors will not make them all work the same. It is the same with the rifle comparison. Sammi specs may be the same for all rounds but brass thickness, powder variations, projectile weight differences, and even barrel temp and fouling will make sure all is not the same.

Distance is also a factor I think, so not only will they arrive strung out over a roughly 32 hour time span but they will be scattered different distances from the jump point. The 100 dia rule means they will not hit each other IMHO but the fleet should condense as ships come in to reduce the scatter a bit.

Was going through my JTAS last night and the best article I could find was in #24.

We all are free to do as we please but this way feels more right to me for my TU.

EDIT:

Just went through T5 and found this tidbit.

Squadron Maneuvers. Highly tuned drives in a squadron
of ships, along with highly trained crews, can make their
emergence from jump very close to the same time (within
about a 5 hour window). Normal military is a little less tight but it also stated that 2 ships jumping at the same time will appear the same distance from each other. Wonder how that works with the time lag when some ships move after jumping in?

on the last bit, the obvious answer is it appears at a point the same distance form the other ships emergence point. ergo, if a fleet jumps in formation, they will retain that formation if the ships stay still upon emergence form jumpspace-

another thing to remember with the time variables is that it may be an inherit part of jumpspace physics, and/or the interface betweem J-space and real space. kinda like how certian quantum effects are truly random, or the effects of whatever is in `J-space on the ship during its time in transit (which, since the ship is completely cut off form outside communication, could not be detected by the ship as it has no frame of reference)

 

[shadowcat20]

I could see them popping in in formation if they did not move. But, in the jump article or HG (Not sure which) it stated that while merchant ships jumped stationary military units jumped going full bore. So they pop in moving flank speed. Now the question is do the others pop in still in formation or do they pop in strung out? I am only using 2 versions of the rules for my notes and one is still a WIP so I do not have a lot to go on.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

that really depends on the response time for a SDB in orbit around the target planet.

the nature of jump means that you can never be truly sure what assets are in a system when you attack it. at absolute best, your info will be 2 weeks old by the time you get thier, if not months old. theirfore, I would want to stage the emergence at a point far enough out that the fleet will all be out of jumpspace before the first defender is inside gun range of you.

if that means i have to jump more than 100D out, then i will do that, because i refuse to dilute my strike power by fighting with only a few ships.

also, remember this is space. thier is no "top speed", only the max speed you can get to before you have to turn around and slow down to stop at your destination. assuming you can get all your ships to pop within a 6 hour window (as T5 suggets), then a ship with 6G can move millions of kilometers in that time frame. their is no way you could keep formation and not stay still at point of entry.

 

[shadowcat20]

Makes sense. It is all handwavium anyway but it is fun to puzzle out.

So, a fleet will pop in in a 6 hour timeframe, consolidate, then advance in formation to engage the enemy. I guess that sending raiders in first to knock out LP's and advanced bases would be the norm just to keep the enemy off balance. If you can get in undetected it will allow you to reform and head in without being spotted. The closer you get undetected the more fragmentary the defense will be.

 

[RandyB]

Makes sense. It is all handwavium anyway but it is fun to puzzle out.

So, a fleet will pop in in a 6 hour timeframe, consolidate, then advance in formation to engage the enemy. I guess that sending raiders in first to knock out LP's and advanced bases would be the norm just to keep the enemy off balance. If you can get in undetected it will allow you to reform and head in without being spotted. The closer you get undetected the more fragmentary the defense will be.

And raiders will be sent to multiple possible target systems, so as to confuse the enemy until the latest possible time (else couriers will jump at the first sign of raiders, providing intelligence to the enemy as to operational movement).

Hm. "Raiders" sounds like PC-scale naval adventures to me...

 

[shadowcat20]

That was just what I was thinking. Give them a job hitting different planetary LP's and advanced bases or picket ships.