Fleet Standard Close Escort?

[Garyius2003]

I have done some poking around with high guard shipyard, trying to come up with the replacement for the Fiery class, with J-4, 6G, and agility 6.

I can’t do it anywhere under TL 15, but with 15 I can do it at 500 tons.

At that level, I get a fusion gun, a particle accelerator, two triple missiles, and one triple sandcaster. I can only get in an a level 7 computer, and a 20 ton gig.

Has anyone else tried to do a fleet standard performance close escort? Is there a better design?

 

[flykiller]

Has anyone else tried to do a fleet standard performance close escort? Is there a better design?

yes, and yes. but the design is dependent on your combat ruleset, and on the task and deployment you envision for the ship. is it an in-system fleet scout? if so, is it expected to survive contact with the enemy? is it expected to fight at all, and if so, with who, and can it do so? is it a convoy escort? is a model 7 computer sufficient to the tasks assigned to it? etc.

and I'll bet you have just one pilot and one navigator for the boat, along with the absolute minimum number of engineers, yes? is that enough for a four month combat deployment? or are the boats disposable? do the crew agree with being disposable?

and does the boat really need a gig? if it's meant to be a probe ship then it should be streamlined already, yes?

lots of factors to consider before a "better" design can be recognized.

 

[jfetters]

What design rules are you using, Garyius?

 

[Garyius2003]

High Guard rules, and I stuck in two extra staterooms.

So if I drop the gig (since it is type 1), I can go to three extra staterooms and computer 9.

 

[Garyius2003]

I see the TL 15 Fiery II as the jack of all trades ship, it is the one that gets sent to escort the 4 fat trader convoy, or look for the pirates in the far trader, or scout some distant system, or carry messages for the fleet, or "escort" that 50k ton cruiser to keep annoying fighters from bothering it while it prepares to deal with the Zho cruiser.

 

[flykiller]

I'd take a factor 9 computer over a gig in any ruleset.

using HG2 I just can't see much fleet utility in a 500 dton ship. a factor 9 weapon gets four critical hits on it, and the ship likely isn't carrying any weapon that can hit a fighter. it likely won't survive an encounter with a larger ship, so it's a poor jump scout. if it's escorting civilian ships then its j4 is wasted, and any commerce raider will likely be larger than such an escort and will be carrying factor 9 weapons. I can see such a ship being used in police work, patrol, piracy suppression, and maybe close support during invasion ops, but in any other HG2 role it just doesn't seem survivable.

 

[Arthur Denger]

I'd take a factor 9 computer over a gig in any ruleset.

using HG2 I just can't see much fleet utility in a 500 dton ship. a factor 9 weapon gets four critical hits on it, and the ship likely isn't carrying any weapon that can hit a fighter. it likely won't survive an encounter with a larger ship, so it's a poor jump scout. if it's escorting civilian ships then its j4 is wasted, and any commerce raider will likely be larger than such an escort and will be carrying factor 9 weapons. I can see such a ship being used in police work, patrol, piracy suppression, and maybe close support during invasion ops, but in any other HG2 role it just doesn't seem survivable.

Ah, I disagree about the gig. Sometimes, it's useful to be in two places at once, and a ship's gig (limited in function though it is) can still perform in a variety of roles. For personnel transfer, it makes little sense to alter ship's course if the gig can be dispatched quickly and efficiently.

Gary's supposition that this design would make a passable 'jack of all trades' ship is probably right; the obvious corollary being that it would not perform in any one role particularly well. It might do a decent job as an escort for a longer legged trader (like those big Tukera or Oberlindes Lines ships). I agree to its dubious survivability in fleet action, and a good scout vessel would likely trade off much of that offensive ironmongery in favor of improved sensors and electronic countermeasures.

The term 'close escort' almost seems a misnomer, as these vessels perform so much better in the role of a gunship. :nonono:

 

[flykiller]

... a good scout vessel would likely trade off much of that offensive ironmongery in favor of improved sensors and electronic countermeasures.

HG2 doesn't have much in the way of sensor rules. but yes, sensor rules can make smaller ships valuable if size makes a difference in detection, tracking, and/or weapons lock, especially if sensing distances and weapons' ranges are different.

not a simple subject.

 

[Garyius2003]

So do I live with computer 7 and a gig, or 9 and no gig?

I don't see this class fighting in line battles other than 'there is [a 400-ton SDB] [some fighters], keep them away from the cruiser while it does the heavy lifting'.

I do see the class fighting the pirates or that Zho scout ship, while on solo patrol. I can also see a few extra sailors or marines on board--and doing boarding operations.

I need a character class navy ship that has some excuse for J-4 and M6, and don't want to give them a destroyer and all the NPC crew problems that go with it.

The old Fiery class has some baggage and can't go fast enough plus the Gazelle class is not going to use the drop tanks except in a combat emergency.

 

[Arthur Denger]

So do I live with computer 7 and a gig, or 9 and no gig?

Keep the gig, especially if you anticipate boarding actions. I've spent most of my life aboard a Gazelle-class, and have found the ship's gig to be indispensable, especially for such missions as you anticipate. It appears your Fiery replacement is going to be used in the gunship role, something it should do tolerably well.

 

[Garyius2003]

"My Lord Admiral, those pirates in coreward District 268 have struck again. They hit another liner and stripped the ship's boats and some cargo. They sped off to a jump point at very high G outrunning the port SBDs."

"Hmmm Captain Smithers, I thought I ordered that the local SBDs and the patrol Gazelles should take care of this problem."

"My Lord, this time they hit a Tukera lines ship and among those killed were the district manager and his family. The Tukera sector board has sent us a note of concern."

"Send one of those Azhanti High Lightnings that we just got back from refitting....pick one with a Captain who has killed pirates before. And those 10 new Fiery II classes--give him those to work with.

"Then draft a response to the board with details on the ships we have sent."

 

[mbrinkhues]

I assume a Close Escort is the equivalent to a Flower class Corvette from WWII cross-bred with a 1920s Colonial Riverboat of the China Service(1) , a small, light and relatively short-ranged combat craft designed to escort merchies, and hunt light enemy raiders (Pirats in civilian ships). It does not escort bigger warships, that's what the 1000dton Chrysanthemum and Fer-de-Lance class Destroyer-Escorts are for and it is not designed to engage an SDB (a well-designed SBD should each a CE for lunch).

The craft has a squad of ships troops or sailors trained in boarding for the "Riverboat" part of the mission and some decend anti-ship/anti-missile punch for the "Anti-Raider" part. The ARMED Gig becomes interesting (The "Faun"-class 20dton Gig of the Gazelle/Fiery carries a laser and passenger seating) in both roles. In a "show the flag/rescue the European traveller" style situation it is send in as a small, agile landing craft

Whenever the escorted convoi needs wilderness refueling, the Merchies do so under High-Guard from the Escort and then the Escort does so under High-Guard from the Gig. The Gig won't stop a dedicated raider but it can scream a lot (and maybe carry a Meson Com)

And yes, the little tincans are "disposabel". Light units up to battlecruisers have always been in history and have been ordered on suicide runs during more than one battle to secure the escape of the convoi or battle line. Just ask the british Auxiellary Cruisers and Destroyers that turned to face german warship-raiders in WWII to buy their convoy time to scatter.


(1)Gunboat on the Yang-Se-Kiang

 

[Arthur Denger]

...The craft has a squad of ships troops or sailors trained in boarding for the "Riverboat" part of the mission and some decend anti-ship/anti-missile punch for the "Anti-Raider" part. The ARMED Gig becomes interesting (The "Faun"-class 20dton Gig of the Gazelle/Fiery carries a laser and passenger seating) in both roles. In a "show the flag/rescue the European traveller" style situation it is send in as a small, agile landing craft

Whenever the escorted convoi needs wilderness refueling, the Merchies do so under High-Guard from the Escort and then the Escort does so under High-Guard from the Gig. The Gig won't stop a dedicated raider but it can scream a lot (and maybe carry a Meson Com)...

Very good points, Michael.

GURPS Traveller: Starships describes the usefulness of a gunned gig pretty well, IMO. If you need more computing power, build a larger ship (in the 800 dton range) and then you can also upgrade to a pinnace or cutter, (and why not have a couple!?).

 

[Garyius2003]

Very good points, Michael.

GURPS Traveller: Starships describes the usefulness of a gunned gig pretty well, IMO. If you need more computing power, build a larger ship (in the 800 dton range) and then you can also upgrade to a pinnace or cutter, (and why not have a couple!?).

With my 500 ton design you have a quick ship, and min crew size 12 (more like 15 or 16 with the extra staterooms). GMing that size NPCs is tough but doable with shifts.

At 800 tons you get size nine computer, and some beam lasers, but your min crew size goes to 16 (more like 20). That is, I think, going from one or two NPCs on a shift to run--to more like five.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Just playing around with GT:Starships and Tom Bonds GMV:

Tempramental Class Close Escort (TTL15/GTL12)

800dton(Airframe), EWeight: 2710ston, Loaded:2820ston
4g Acceleration, Jump 4 (Can process fuel load in 5 hours)
Price: 419MCr in large numbers, 458MCr single

The ship carries a 20dton Armed Gig and two 10dton Fighters in Vehicle Bays

Armament is four turrets with Hv. Lasers, 2 Turrets with three military Grade (500mm) missile launchers (10 Missiles/Launcher), 2 Turrets with Dual Laser and Single Sandcaster. The electronics are hardened and the ship carries enhanced sensors, comm-systems (including Meson-Com) and Electronic Warfare Systems. Cargo is 20dtons

The Hull is Armored (DR1000/AV1) and carries massiv stealthing and Emmision Cloaking as well as being color-adaptive and psi-shielded. The ship also has a nuclear damper.

Crew is 38 including a 12 person security unit and the four small craft pilots. Some spare personal can be embarked (4-8) using a spare bunkroom. The crew shares 4 single, 5 Double Cabins and 7 Bunkrooms. They have access to a military sickbay.


==================================

Dropping the streamlining (IMHO totally acceptabel) allows a large increase in armor and putting either more small craft in or giving the crew larger quarters. I optet for the former and gave the craft two more fighters and some maintenance crew for a total of 45 while increasing Acceleration to 5g and giving out escape capsules etc.

 

[flykiller]

So do I live with computer 7 and a gig, or 9 and no gig?

(smile) 'pends on whether you can live with the main ship getting hit or not.

I need a character class navy ship that has some excuse for J-4 and M6, and don't want to give them a destroyer and all the NPC crew problems that go with it.

not possible.

1) does the ship need to be j4 m6, or will j3 m5 do just as well? if you can do j3 m5 you can get all the way down to 400 dtons and still have a pretty good boat, with armor even.

2) if npc's are the problem then there are two solutions. a), do the star trek approach. the npc's are just part of the machinery, it's the senior officers that get all the action. or, b) the ship is mainly crewed by robots, with the player characters in charge. I know, not much difference between the two, but 'least if a robot is destroyed you don't have to pretend to be sad about someone you never met or cared about before. and with robots you don't need staterooms, just a 0.5 dton recharging station.

3) and hey, npc's can be great referee tools for advancing the story anyway. jokester, historian, hotshot gig pilot, some with skills that the player characters didn't get. hey, one falls in love with a player character and is then captured and has to be rescued. npc's are referee resources - they give the referee a chance to play in his own game.

I'd suggest a 1200 dton frigate. plenty of room for a major weapon if desired, plus a 9fib, some armor, a gig, a squad, a medbay/science lab, maybe a vehicle. the size puts you in HG2 territory with a reduced engineer staff, and the larger weapons reduces the total number of gunners needed. a few choice npc's, a few robots to round out the crew reqs, and you're good to go. better than trying to cram a few player characters into a minimal ship where they have nothing to do but launch weapons and get on each other's nerves while you sit back and watch.

 

[flykiller]

Fleet Escort Something-or-other

1200 dtons tech 15 wedge hull, streamlined, fuel scoops
jump 4, maneuver 6, fuel purifier, power plant fuel for 28 days
model 9 computer
beam laser battery factor 9 (with gunnery station and battery backup)
2 sand caster batteries factor 5 (with gunnery stations and reload magazines)
armor 4
20 dton gig
4 dton airraft
11 staterooms, sick bay, 6 robot berth stations
cargo for 10 months independent operations
20 crew: captain, 3 pilots, 2 navigators, chief engineer, chief gunner, paramedic, master-at-arms, 5 engineers, 3 gunners, 2 service

try using the ship design spreadsheet I have listed below in my sig, it's great for tweaking stuff.

 

[aramis]

The Gazelle works well as a heavy escort in a small-ship heresy universe.

I'm pretty convinced it was designed with Adv 1's Kinunir "heavy cruiser"/"Pocket Battleship" in mind.

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, you pretty much have to play in a small ship universe if a PC run ship is to have any influence. This doesn't mean there can't be big ships, only that they have to remain well away from the PC operational theater, either physically or practically.

If the Close Escort, SDB with Jump Shuttle, or Patrol Cruiser types don't do it for you what about the Fleet Escort?

Or, my quick* IN Scout/Courier:

HG - TL 15 - 400tons streamlined

Maneuver 6G, Jump 4, Power 6 (24EP)

Fuel 184tons for 4 weeks and 4 parsecs, purifier and scoops

Model/9 computer (-12EP)

Four hardpoints and weapons of choice (-12EP or agility 3)

Ten staterooms and 24tons cargo

Crew: Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Engineers x4, Gunners x4, Medic.

The Captain(O) has two staterooms as a suite/office except if transporting a dignitary. Said dignitary getting one of the staterooms and the Captain the other.

The Pilot(O), Navigator(NCO), Medic(NCO), Chief Engineer(NCO) and Chief Gunner(NCO) typically have private staterooms but the NCOs may be doubled up to allow for up to 4 Troops.

The regular Engineers and Gunners share the final three staterooms.

* might have screwed a calc so check it yourself before using, and I didn't do cost as it's pointless

EDIT: see, I knew there was a goof corrected now (found 24tons cargo without messing with the staterooms)

 

[Icosahedron]

I approached the NPC problem on the passenger deck by creating the GPC - Guided Player Character. This is effectively a drone; the Referee does the charGen and basic personality, then hands it over to a player to role-play. The Referee provides the player with new 'orders' periodically and the player carries them out. It saves some time if you don't have to be hands-on with every NPC all the time.
Of course, the players must be warned not to get attached to the GPCs, on the grounds that some of them are Red Shirts...
OTOH, if the GPCs are lesser crewmembers, it actually gives the players an opportunity to indulge in a little Kamikaze altruism, going into the fray gung-ho to buy time for their comrades - without losing their pet character!