Fleet Standard Close Escort?

[mbrinkhues]

It's stationed at the 100 diameter limit. It's not going to circle the planet at all. It's going to maintain a particular distance and bearing from the planet.

How do you propose that the pirate make an intercept in the first place? He doesn't know when the merchant will arrive. The only way to make an intercept is to lurk for hours at the spot he expects the merchant to appear in the system. Which the picket will prevent him from doing, because there's no legitimate reason why anyone would jump into the system and just float idly at the jump limit. Legitimate visitors will be in a hurry to get to the starport.

I do agree that for complete coverage you need several pickets, but one is enough to make life very interesting for any would-be pirate.


Every problem a picket has intercepting a pirate, the pirate will also have in intercepting a merchant.


Hans

Actually I can find a number of reasons to hover at the 100D limit. Starting with M-drive problems, being a tender waiting for a LASH frighter all the way down to waiting for another liner/ship to transfer cargo before we both re-fill at the next gas giant.

 

[pendragonman]

Pendragonman,

Are you aware of the range of ship's weapons in Traveller?

Using the ranges in LBB:2; which both Mayday and HG2 follow, a ship can sit outside Earth's spherical jump limit and shoot at vessels in Earth orbit.

As for interceptions, may I suggest that everyone pull out LBB:2 or Mayday and try their hand at actually making a few? Vectors are pesky things and matching vectors isn't as easy as people generally assume.

Oh... and when you get done wrestling with LBB:2 and Mayday vector movement systmes please remember that those games are played in two dimensions only.



Have fun,
Bill

why yes, I am well aware of the weapons ranges. Are you aware of the physics involved with shooting lasers thru an atmosphere? You would have to shoot thru the atmosphere for most of the time the picket is on the 30 degrees of arc before and after the sensor shadow created by the planet.

Oh, and parabolic missile flights are easily trackable and intercepted.

Now, if you choose to live and die by the strict fact of HG2 being "2-d" (I see it more as a set of concentric spheres radiating from each battle line) or Mayday being 2-d please remember that those vector calculations are waaaaay abstracted .

 

[Whipsnade]

why yes, I am well aware of the weapons ranges. Are you aware of the physics involved with shooting lasers thru an atmosphere?

Pendragonman,

My reference to Traveller's huge weapon ranges was meant to point out that a ship can reach out across a lot of space and touch someone. I wasn't suggesting that anyone would shoot through an atmosphere.

Oh, and parabolic missile flights are easily trackable and intercepted.

Who mentioned anything about parabolic missile tracks? Given the distances Traveller missiles allegedly travel; 15 Mayday hexes in 20 minutes, their courses will not resemble parabolas in any real sense.

Now, if you choose to live and die by the strict fact of HG2 being "2-d"...

I don't and if you'd care to re-read my message again I reference HG2 only with regards to weapon ranges.

... or Mayday being 2-d please remember that those vector calculations are waaaaay abstracted .

Which makes my point for me. Interceptions in the 2D LBB:2 and Mayday vector movement systems are waaaaay hard and time consuming already. Adding the third dimension makes the problem even harder.

To recap - just so the point gets made - ships can hurt it other at huge ranges and matching vectors for intercepts is very time consuming.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Faldialwadi]

Pendragonman said --- Merchies are known for their "poor" piloting, and so one merchie slowly drifting towards another but not dangerously so...

Do you mean like coming within 500 meters of the SDB, on a near collision course, in your Suliman?

 

[atpollard]

As for interceptions, may I suggest that everyone pull out LBB:2 or Mayday and try their hand at actually making a few? Vectors are pesky things and matching vectors isn't as easy as people generally assume.

I remember my first vector combat only too well:

Two ships build velocity rushing in to attack each other. Missiles burning out and going ballistic before reaching the enemy ship. One turn of exchanged weapon fire. Then the ships zip past each other at unimaginable speeds and spend hours decelerating to turn around for another shot.

 

[pendragonman]

Pendragonman said --- Merchies are known for their "poor" piloting, and so one merchie slowly drifting towards another but not dangerously so...

Do you mean like coming within 500 meters of the SDB, on a near collision course, in your Suliman?

Something like that, yeah. :nonono:

 

[rancke]

It is truly an incompetent pirate captain that cannot a) find a method of looking like a merchie to satisfy the picket and b) be able to make his intercept at his leisure.

Just saying so doesn't make it true. Looking like a merchant and intercepting his prey are precisely two of the greatest problems a pirate has. In any system with system defense forces, that is. If there are no defenders, the pirate doesn't need to look like a merchant and he can pursue his prey without worrying about getting a laser beam up his stern.

Unless the local government has a policy of boarding every "merchie" that is inbound (and thus creating a need for a much larger number of patrol craft) it would almost be impossible for a picket to be able to tell one merchie from another from the outside.

All that is needed is a policy of inspecting any ship that doesn't act like a merchant. This would include any ship that lingered at the jump limit. A ship is expensive, and every minute it isn't moving goods and passengers it's losing money. Another telltale would be a ship landing in the starport and not proceeding to conduct business.

Merchies are known for their "poor" piloting, and so one merchie slowly drifting towards another but not dangerously so until after the picket passes makes pirate intercept easy.

Bear in mind that the pirate has no way of timing his arrival and that when he arrives he'll get a flight plan assigned by system control. A merchant who can't follow a simple flight plan is going to get inspected, not on suspicion of piracy, but to get his license yanked.

It's trivially easy to assign every arriving ship a flight plan that doesn't get them close enough to each other for a pirate to have a chance to intercept without giving the defenders plenty of warning.

BTW, where did you get the information that merchants are known for their poor piloting? I don't recall seeing that anywhere canonical.

Now, you are saying that your picket is in geosynchronous orbit?

No, I'm saying it is at the jump limit.

Can you make planning and doing an intercept any easier? The 100d limit is not a point in space but an entire set of points that make up the surface of a sphere of radius 100d. Placing the picket at one point, then asking that every merchie jump to within epsilon of that picket will only result in some idiot merchie pilot coming out of jump waaaaaay to close to the picket, like in it.

No, it won't. The odds against two ships just happening to intercept, even if they were aiming for the same point (and, of course, the picket won't be stationed exactly where the merchants are told to aim (which will be a volume of space, not a point)) are astronomical.

Now, suppose the merchie jumps in behind the picket with opposite vector, how do you propose the picket stop and search? Remember your vector math.

Behind the picket relative to what? And the merchant will be arriving with zero vector relative to the destination world (I've never heard of a "running arrival", and no wonder, since it would be a silly thing for a merchant to try), which is the same vector the picket has.


Hans

 

[rancke]

While I agree with your assertion, please be aware that there are folks out there who play with gravity shadow constrained, for lack of a better term, breakout points.

I'm not one of them. I use both jump shadowing and jump masking. And I concede that my current argument doesn't address ships that jump to masked destinations. They do present greater opportunities for pirates (though still not very great).


Hans

 

[rancke]

In my Traveller the jump exit point is not certain. That is why guys with Nav 3 or 4 get paid the big bucks to jump the huge merchants, and the free trader will be happy to put up with a PC and all his problems with 1 or 2.

Thanks to the nature of canonical jump travel (especially jump precipitation), you just aim for the spot the planet will be 168 hours later and in most cases you'll be precipitated out at the jump limit[*].

A 100 diameter sphere is a big target.

[*] Granted, it'll be a random spot on a half circle running along the jump limit, which is why I said a single picket isn't sufficient.

It also is why pickets don't work so well in my Imperium. The 400 Ton SBD may come screaming from its hover location in the general area of the jump point, but by the time he gets there the pirate had already shifted the boats and some cargo containers and is moving right along to the closest jump limit.

With the ranges ship weapons have, the hover location IS the general area of the jump point. And just how did the pirate manage to station himself right at the spot where the merchant would arrive? And why was he allowed to linger there until the merchant arrived?


Hans

 

[rancke]

regarding intercepts, some situations seem to be overlooked that may be more difficult to defend against than others, such as gas giants with habitable worlds. an LGG's 100d can easily be 90LS in diameter. further, if these settings are held to be sources of sensor interference then sensor range may become a serious issue.

True, but everything you mention also complicates the pirate's task of intercepting his prey.

even more extreme may be the 100d of a star if the habitable world is well within it, and if jump masking is used. it will certainly be difficult to patrol all of the likely precipitation points, let alone all the possible ones, and ships doing so will be vulnerable to sudden gang-ups as they will be well out of range of any useful backup.

A ship that arrives 100 solar diameters from a planet and proceeds to make a least-time trip to it will present a big problem for a pirate to intercept. But, yes, jump masking does give a pirate more scope.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Actually I can find a number of reasons to hover at the 100D limit. Starting with M-drive problems, being a tender waiting for a LASH freighter all the way down to waiting for another liner/ship to transfer cargo before we both re-fill at the next gas giant.

A ship in distress invites a visit from a system defense vessel, just on humanitarian grounds. I've never heard of a free-lance LASH tender jumping into a system and offering to carry cargo. A ship that jumps into a system needs to refuel. Lingering at the jump limit won't accomplish that unless the lingering takes place near a space station. Guess where I would station a few patrol ships if I was defending a system with a space station at the jump limit?


Hans

 

[Vargas]

I'm not one of them. I use both jump shadowing and jump masking. And I concede that my current argument doesn't address ships that jump to masked destinations. They do present greater opportunities for pirates (though still not very great).


Hans

Unless I'm misinterpreting your post, jump shadowing and jump masking both constrain where a ship can leave Jump due to the influence of gravity, correct?

My previous post addressed a poster's assumption that ships could/would appear anywhere along a sphere defined by the 100D limit. My comment was that some people used rules which would eliminate some of the areas of that sphere.


And as to piracy, I recently read an article in National Gepgraphic about piracy in an around Indonesia. More often than it was an inside job and not a 'run them down and board' scenario.

 

[pendragonman]

A ship in distress invites a visit from a system defense vessel, just on humanitarian grounds. I've never heard of a free-lance LASH tender jumping into a system and offering to carry cargo. A ship that jumps into a system needs to refuel. Lingering at the jump limit won't accomplish that unless the lingering takes place near a space station. Guess where I would station a few patrol ships if I was defending a system with a space station at the jump limit?


Hans

That works for those systems with out gas giants. What about systems with gas giants?

Oh, and ships only need to refuel right away to jump again right away. There is still manu fuel for the rest of the month.

 

[Whipsnade]

It also is why pickets don't work so well in my Imperium. The 400 Ton SBD may come screaming from its hover location in the general area of the jump point, but by the time he gets there the pirate had already shifted the boats and some cargo containers and is moving right along to the closest jump limit.

Garyius2003,

Have you ever played it out in your Traveller universe?

I mean have you knuckled down and pulled out LBB:2 or Mayday, then set up the mainworld , it's jump limit, where the merchant arrives, where the pirate is waiting, where the SDB is hovering, and then actually played it all out? Have you?

Or have you merely assumed it worked instead?

At 6gees and with canonical weapon ranges, that SDB will hammer your pirate long before it even boards the merchant let alone shifts cargo.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

That works for those systems with out gas giants. What about systems with gas giants?

Pendragonman,

You picket one gas giant and tell everyone which one it is. Then, those ships that are only passing through your system and don't need to visit the port can refuel safely there.

The Hobby has been hashing this out for 30 years now. You aren't going to find a loophole everyone else missed.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[pendragonman]

Bill,

I have been playing the game for 30 years. The limiting factor is the speed of communication as to where the picket is. If you post the picket today, at best the neighboring starports find out a week from now and another week before inbound traffic starts to follow directions. NPC Merchantmen, played with any realism, will not shift their operations as fast as any naval presence would like. That gives two weeks of free targeting. Is that a loophole?

Note, a ship can always jump into system at the 100 d limit of the gas giant, they don't have to travel to the gas giant from the starport. I have before, and will again, successfully pirate ships in systems that someone with your linear thinking has defended in the methods outlined in this thread.

As to your comments to Garius, I ask this: Have you played it out? (I have, using LBB2) If so, was your pirate commander competent or someone unfamiliar with ship's tactics?

If you were the pirate, did you get away successfully? (I did) If not, was it because you didn't think as fast as the SDB commander?

In truth, game mechanics are not the reason one ship's commander beats the other. It is the commander's capabilities. I have won tournaments in Star Fleet Battles in single ship, tournament ship, squadron, and fleet contests. I have won tournaments of Wooden Ships and Iron Men (age of sail ship and fleet combat). I have won most of the engagements I have played using Harpoon. Loopholes are present in every combat, irrespective of game mechanics. It is, and always will be the commander that a)makes the least mistakes and b) capitalizes on his opponent's mistakes that win the fight NOT what armchair fleet commanders think of the game mechanics.




Huff huff huff. Sorry for the rant, but armchair commanding really irritates me.

 

[Whipsnade]

I have been playing the game for 30 years.

Pendragonman,

So have I. Maybe we should get to wear special buttons or something...

The limiting factor is the speed of communication as to where the picket is.

Oh for Pete's sake... You publish which gas giant is picketed in the navigation data your port authority provides to all the other port authorities. Pilots and navigators and shipping companies know that Gas Giant A in System B is always picketed and thus safe (as any place can be) for wilderness refueling.

Note, a ship can always jump into system at the 100 d limit of the gas giant. I have before, and will again, successfully pirate ships in systems that someone with your linear thinking has defended in the methods outlined in this thread.

Linear thinking? Will wonders never cease...

I've been thinking about this since HG2 revealed the Big Ship - Big Fleet Imperium with an eye towards making piracy work. You can ask anyone here that I am strongly pro-pirate. What I am not is pro-idiot.

Piracy threads always boil done to blathering matches between two opposing camps. There's the pro-pirate Yo-ho-ho-ists and their cartoonish Hollywood ideas about piracy that sadly cannot work in the Imperium and there's the anti-pirate Mugwumps who claim that piracy can never work in the Imperium. Then there's the middle ground where I stand, a place where piracy is both plausible and works within the constraints post-LBB:5 canon places on us.

I ask this: Have you played it out? If so, was your pirate commander competant or someone unfamiliar with ship's tactics? If you were the pirate, did you get away successfully? If not, was it because you didn't think as fast as the SDB commander?

I'd like to think I'm competent, I've been playing wargames since the late 60s. I've played LBB:2 and Mayday uncounted times. Because my RPG groups were mostly wargamers too, both vector-based games were part routinely part of our RPG. Every once and while there's a "Golden Moment"; your vector is good, your target's vector is good, the picket's vector is bad, and you'll have all the time you need to fight, match vectors, board, fight, loot, and - most importantly - get away safely. Those moments are extremely rare and, if you try a bit of Yo-ho-ho-ist-style piracy outside of them, you get your ass kicked. How long can you wait for those rare chances AND make you nut? How long can you skulk around jump limits and continually visit ports without cargo or pax without the authorities looking you over?

How about answering that question yourself. Set up a main world or gas giant and mark off the 100D limit. Randomly place the SDB, choose where to place your pirate, and then have the merchant drop out of jump space. Tell us how often you succeed - with success meaning getting away with loot - and how often you get damaged instead.

If you don't want to go through all that effort, why not try "just" matching vectors instead? You need to match vectors to board and you need to baoard to shift cargo. Put one ship on a vector to the port and then see how long it takes another to match it. Remember, matching means both the present and future positions must match. This is not an interception where only the future positions need match.

Here's a hint; it will take at a minimum TWO Mayday turns to match vectors and you'll still need to board, fight the crew, and shift cargo.

Want to guess how soon that 6gee SDB will be within weapons' range?


Having fun,
Bill

 

[mbrinkhues]

A ship in distress invites a visit from a system defense vessel, just on humanitarian grounds. I've never heard of a free-lance LASH tender jumping into a system and offering to carry cargo. A ship that jumps into a system needs to refuel. Lingering at the jump limit won't accomplish that unless the lingering takes place near a space station. Guess where I would station a few patrol ships if I was defending a system with a space station at the jump limit?


Hans

Actually calling out "Minor problems, engineer at work" should work against the pesky patrol, it's not as if the ship is in any danger out there.

Who said freelance LASH-Tender, they can be quite legit

And I don't HAVE TO refuel always. I.e I am a Typ-M Liner, did a J1 in, will do a J2 out, just waiting for a passenger transfer

And no one needs to jump in on the planets 100D limit unless you are in the "Straight ass german bureaucracy universe".

 

[aramis]

Only under CT rules, Bill, only under CT rules. CT laser ranges are ludicrous.

But, by the same token, Piracy can work, since nothing has ever stopped piracy in the real world. the question instead is "How will it work"...

Pirates need three things:
A) a way to escape capture
B) a target to grab goods from
C) the ability to get the goods from the target.

Loitering is one method.

Double-jumping is another. Jump in, like merchant traffic, and snag while inbound, then jump out (taking a risky jump).

Coopting a crewman is another. If the ship jumps to the wrong place, where a pirate happens to be "waiting"...

This last is my favorite piracy scam. Jump them to an empty hex via either corrupting their computer or navigator. Pay him well. (you'll get most of it back.) Let them run out of LS. Recover the goods and their ship. Wipe the computers, and wait a couple months. Haul in some fuel, and LS, and jump that bad boy out for 10% as a salvage. Just make certain that you provide the coords for verification of non-violence...

"Your Lordship, as your investigators have verified by telescopic observation, there was no exchange of fire, communnications, nor personell prior to recovery. As our logs report, we were in the area doing historical research via radio telescopic survey for The Good Professor Higgens, and found their distress call. Too late, I'm afraid, to be of help...."

Just make certain your stooge either had gone missing already, or had an escape route.

 

[Whipsnade]

But, by the same token, Piracy can work, since nothing has ever stopped piracy in the real world. the question instead is "How will it work"...

Aramis,

All very good options and all more akin to the actual way piracy worked historically and works in the present than anything like the cartoonish Hollywood model the Yo-ho-ho-ists insist on.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. CT laser ranges are insane, but so are MT's. And there's always missiles... SDBs will have nukes, will a pirate have a damper?