Fleet Standard Close Escort?

[Garyius2003]

That's an intesting idea. I could do with a DE that way, handing off the NPCs to the players.

So it looks like my choices are:

1. Rework my overall plan and go with a Gazelle/Fiery

2. Go with my compromise 500 ton TL15 Fiery II, and some NPCs (either under the GM or player controlled) and handwave why the ship is forced into a fleet by planners when it is really a Fiery that can keep up with the cruisers

3. Go with a Destroyer Escort or Fleet Escort (1000 or 1200 tons) and give each PC two NPCs to control

I did find some modern justification for the 500 ton compromise design with the US Navy's LCS and PC ship classes (the PC is just as fast as the big ships but only gets 10 days at sea---the LCS can stay out longer). Neither is as good at fighting as the big ships but both go out with the task forces and alone (will go out in the case of the LCS).

 

[Arthur Denger]

...Go with my compromise 500 ton TL15 Fiery II, and some NPCs (either under the GM or player controlled) and handwave why the ship is forced into a fleet by planners when it is really a Fiery that can keep up with the cruisers...

Why not? There are dozens of good reasons why this could occur... a baron or marquis in the Admiralty who owes an old industrialist friend a favor, obsolescent ships in District 268 which are still 'just good enough' for active use, a PC or NPC who bought the thing from surplus to use for his/her own purposes, or that individual's young relative who has just inherited it, the list could go on. Figuring out the justification (for the handwave) is half the fun of being the GM!

 

[rancke]

So do I live with computer 7 and a gig, or 9 and no gig?

A gig is too useful, and the combat efficiency of a Computer-9 vs. a Computer-7 is significant. I'd make it a 600T ship (and perhaps squeeze in a few extra crewmembers, possibly a marine fire team -- spare crew can be very useful too).

I need a character class navy ship that has some excuse for J-4 and M6, and don't want to give them a destroyer and all the NPC crew problems that go with it.

Yeah, back when I ran a naval campaign, the first ship I gave my players was my version of a Fiery (that was before the Fiery was published, but my Storm Class was a 500T streamlined, no-drop-tanks version of the Gazelle too).

Later, when they had succeeded in too many missions to not promote the captain, I moved them to a Kinunir. The extra NPCs really weren't a problem. Perhaps that was because the players had three characters each, an officer, a marine, and a crewman, so they could compose a suitable party no matter what the situation (And the 2nd Officer was an NPC who could be left in charge of the ship when the captain and some of his officers were invited to a ball by the governor).

The old Fiery class has some baggage and can't go fast enough plus the Gazelle class is not going to use the drop tanks except in a combat emergency.

I'm not sure why you feel the ship absolutely must have 6G.


Hans

 

[rancke]

"My Lord Admiral, those pirates in coreward District 268 have struck again. They hit another liner and stripped the ship's boats and some cargo. They sped off to a jump point at very high G outrunning the port SBDs."

"Hmmm Captain Smithers, I thought I ordered that the local SBDs and the patrol Gazelles should take care of this problem..."

"...Do they only have two or three vessels in all? If they have half a dozen, tell them to station a picket at the 100D limit and post notice in neighboring systems that merchants should jump to somewhere near the picket. Then have the picket examine any ship that jumps in and don't immediately proceed to the starport. Also have the ground forces examine any ship that doesn't conduct regular merchant-type operations when it does arrive at the starport."

"Yes, My Lord."


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

M'Lord? May we station an extra squad of Marines on each SDB to conduct these examinations?

 

[flykiller]

... the players had three characters each, an officer, a marine, and a crewman, so they could compose a suitable party no matter what the situation ....

now that is an excellent idea for a larger ship. three different worlds and cultures in one hull, covering multiple adventure scenarios in the same setting, with minimal scope overlap so a player can't conflate one character with another. three games in one.

one could expand it to include flag officers and nobles.

I'll have to incorporate this in my next game.

 

[aramis]

I've done just that type of game.

Initial PC's the BoD of a Sector "Up and Coming" corp.
Each heading up a division, staffed by second-tier characters.
One division, the "starhammer" division, was a nail-missions merc group; the more high-profile missions were played out using MT large scale combat, one fire team per player, save Admiral Ferrarri, who commanded the "fleet" of 5 type T's and 3 gazelles.

 

[mbrinkhues]

"...Do they only have two or three vessels in all? If they have half a dozen, tell them to station a picket at the 100D limit and post notice in neighboring systems that merchants should jump to somewhere near the picket. Then have the picket examine any ship that jumps in and don't immediately proceed to the starport. Also have the ground forces examine any ship that doesn't conduct regular merchant-type operations when it does arrive at the starport."

"Yes, My Lord."


Hans

"Ah but we can't do that. That would mean deploying ships single, giving their captains the idea to do some protection-racketing on their own. Not to mention that the local barons would protest loosing their status symbols and protection against unruly tax-subjects."

 

[rancke]

"Ah but we can't do that. That would mean deploying ships single, giving their captains the idea to do some protection-racketing on their own. Not to mention that the local barons would protest loosing their status symbols and protection against unruly tax-subjects."

I don't get this at all. If the local system navy is big enough to keep a ship stationed at the jump limit, such a picket would make intercepting merchants on spec a losing proposition for a pirate. I'd argue that you could set up such a system with 3 or 4 ships (you need to be able to rotate them) although I think a full squadron (8 ships) would be better. With less there's nothing to fall back upon if anything goes wrong. Also, a single ship is vulnerable to being ganged up upon. All this would be done by local forces.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

Hans,

Are you aware that the 100d limit is a sphere? Therefore there is no way that 3-4 ships can handle this.

Suppose that the picket boat is circling the planet once per hour. Then if the pirate makes an intercept of a merchant that is on the exact same disc that the picket is on no more than 10 minutes after the picket goes by the picket will be unable to make intercept in less than 40 minutes (Breaking and/or accellerating is a pain). Forty minutes is a long time in combat.

Now suppose that the merchie is off the picket's disc by 90 degrees. Then the time to intercept is even higher as the picket not only has to change velocity but the direction of the vector around the sphere.

 

[rancke]

Suppose that the picket boat is circling the planet once per hour.

It's stationed at the 100 diameter limit. It's not going to circle the planet at all. It's going to maintain a particular distance and bearing from the planet.

Then if the pirate makes an intercept of a merchant that is on the exact same disc that the picket is on no more than 10 minutes after the picket goes by the picket will be unable to make intercept in less than 40 minutes (Breaking and/or accelerating is a pain). Forty minutes is a long time in combat.

How do you propose that the pirate make an intercept in the first place? He doesn't know when the merchant will arrive. The only way to make an intercept is to lurk for hours at the spot he expects the merchant to appear in the system. Which the picket will prevent him from doing, because there's no legitimate reason why anyone would jump into the system and just float idly at the jump limit. Legitimate visitors will be in a hurry to get to the starport.

I do agree that for complete coverage you need several pickets, but one is enough to make life very interesting for any would-be pirate.

Now suppose that the merchie is off the picket's disc by 90 degrees. Then the time to intercept is even higher as the picket not only has to change velocity but the direction of the vector around the sphere.

Every problem a picket has intercepting a pirate, the pirate will also have in intercepting a merchant.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

It is truly an incompetant pirate captain that cannot a) find a method of looking like a merchie to satisfy the picket and b) be able to make his intercept at his leisure. Unless the local government has a policy of boarding every "merchie" that is inbound (and thus creating a need for a much larger number of patrol craft) it would almost be impossible for a picket to be able to tell one merchie from another from the outside. (I assume the pirate ship is "annonymous" in the area). Merchies are known for their "poor" piloting, and so one merchie slowly drifting towards another but not dangerously so until after the picket passes makes pirate intercept easy.

Now, you are saying that your picket is in geosynchronous orbit? Can you make planning and doing an intercept any easier? The 100d limit is not a point in space but an entire set of points that make up the surface of a sphere of radius 100d. Placing the picket at one point, then asking that every merchie jump to within epsilon of that picket will only result in some idiot merchie pilot coming out of jump waaaaaay to close to the picket, like in it.

Now, suppose the merchie jumps in behind the picket with opposit vector, how do you propose the picket stop and search? Remember your vector math.

Unless your TU is only a) 2-d and b) all jump points have something special about them that require ships to only go to that point to jump your idea doesn't work.

 

[tjoneslo]

Hans,

Are you aware that the 100d limit is a sphere? Therefore there is no way that 3-4 ships can handle this.

Yes, that's the reason for posting notices in the starports of nearby systems. The notice is, in effect, that any merchant coming from nearby system B, they must jump to the picket point. Any ship that fails to do so is either run by captain oblivious (who shouldn't be operating a starship) or a pirate. The reverse would also be true, if you are going from here to nearby system B, you must go through the picket point. Failure to do so means you're a pirate.

So yes, the 100D limit is a large sphere. But a minimal amount of traffic control can reduce the size to a manageable space. Everyone not following the traffic control rules is operating illegally, and can therefore be shot on sight.

 

[Vargas]

Hans, Are you aware that the 100d limit is a sphere?

While I agree with your assertion, please be aware that there are folks out there who play with gravity shadow constrained, for lack of a better term, breakout points.

 

[Garyius2003]

In my Traveller the jump exit point is not certain. That is why guys with Nav 3 or 4 get paid the big bucks to jump the huge merchants, and the free trader will be happy to put up with a PC and all his problems with 1 or 2.

"Commander Valaasc, I see from your naval duty qualification record that with cruiser class vessels you jump to within 95% of time and location goals 90% of the time. When can you start with Tukera lines, and will four times the standard salary be sufficent?"

It also is why pickets don't work so well in my Imperium. The 400 Ton SBD may come screaming from its hover location in the general area of the jump point, but by the time he gets there the pirate had already shifted the boats and some cargo containers and is moving right along to the closest jump limit.

Then if it is an inside job hijacking the picket is useless, even if the pirates are working with a pirate ship for strip and release.

 

[Whipsnade]

Are you aware that the 100d limit is a sphere?

Pendragonman,

Are you aware of the range of ship's weapons in Traveller?

Using the ranges in LBB:2; which both Mayday and HG2 follow, a ship can sit outside Earth's spherical jump limit and shoot at vessels in Earth orbit.

As for interceptions, may I suggest that everyone pull out LBB:2 or Mayday and try their hand at actually making a few? Vectors are pesky things and matching vectors isn't as easy as people generally assume.

Oh... and when you get done wrestling with LBB:2 and Mayday vector movement systmes please remember that those games are played in two dimensions only.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[atpollard]

How do you propose that the pirate make an intercept in the first place? He doesn't know when the merchant will arrive. The only way to make an intercept is to lurk for hours at the spot he expects the merchant to appear in the system. Which the picket will prevent him from doing, because there's no legitimate reason why anyone would jump into the system and just float idly at the jump limit. Legitimate visitors will be in a hurry to get to the starport.

I do agree that for complete coverage you need several pickets, but one is enough to make life very interesting for any would-be pirate.

Every problem a picket has intercepting a pirate, the pirate will also have in intercepting a merchant.

Hans

I thought this made some very good points that are being overlooked in the general discussion on 100 diameter spheres. The PIRATE needs to wait for hours at the jump limit for a MERCHANT to arrive while avoiding detection by even a single PATROL ship.

 

[flykiller]

regarding intercepts, some situations seem to be overlooked that may be more difficult to defend against than others, such as gas giants with habitable worlds. an LGG's 100d can easily be 90LS in diameter. further, if these settings are held to be sources of sensor interference then sensor range may become a serious issue.

even more extreme may be the 100d of a star if the habitable world is well within it, and if jump masking is used. it will certainly be difficult to patrol all of the likely precipitation points, let alone all the possible ones, and ships doing so will be vulnerable to sudden gang-ups as they will be well out of range of any useful backup.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Let's face it, any pirat stupid enough to

+ Wait in an INHABITAT system
+ NOT bribe Commodore Ignatius N. Capabel, Imperial Navy to look the other way
+ Choose a system with only one node of commerce and one 100D limit

deserves to be shot. Piracy is what this nice little UNINHABITAT systems a ship must cross are for.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Yes, that's the reason for posting notices in the starports of nearby systems. The notice is, in effect, that any merchant coming from nearby system B, they must jump to the picket point. Any ship that fails to do so is either run by captain oblivious (who shouldn't be operating a starship) or a pirate. The reverse would also be true, if you are going from here to nearby system B, you must go through the picket point. Failure to do so means you're a pirate.

So yes, the 100D limit is a large sphere. But a minimal amount of traffic control can reduce the size to a manageable space. Everyone not following the traffic control rules is operating illegally, and can therefore be shot on sight.

Sorry but Shoot on Sight only works if Streppi is starting to wear a hooded cloak and Norris begins breathing heavily even when is assistant is not around. In the typical 3I environment the Navy has to account for human error, technical problems and plain old stupidity before firing the planetary meson battery