rancke said:
I don't see why they would necessarily unite in the face of alien invaders. They might, but then again, they might not. But it's moot, because the Imperium isn't invading them during the Rebellion. For the Vargr, it must be self-interest (enlightened or not as the case might be) all the way.
Agreed, the Imperium didn't invade them, however, the idea that an incursion into Vargr space could cause them to act united against a single enemy instead of fighting amongst themselves would bring about fears of territoriality concerns.
We're really moving into opinion country here, so I'll just say that based on the original writeups of how Vargr behave, I don't see how anyone would ever feel any concern that anything would ever cause the Vargr to unite. (Which, incidentally, is one reason why I don't believe in that artificial Vargr personality that MT came up with to handwave the Vargr incursions). To paraphrase Professor Higgins, the moment you slap a Vargr, you make some other Vargr love you.
[*] BTW, nor really a fair description of what is clearly stated to be the biggest raiding band around.
From my source, the Kforuzeng were most powerful corsair band in the Gvurrdon sector. They absorbed several other bands, among them the Aegzaeng, who provided ground forces and hired out as mercenaries. The Kforuzeng began to splinter prior to the rebellion with the Ethueng breaking away and hired by Tukera as escorts and raiders against Tukera competitors. If not for the Oekhsos tirades and other anti-Imperium propaganda, they would have disbanded permanently by 1115. That description hardly fits the pitiful order of battle mentioned in earlier posts. At least not in the big-ship OTU.
Why not? The description works perfectly well if the corsairs bands usually consist of half a dozen or a dozen small ships. What it doesn't fit with is the notion, introduced to bolster the Vargr faction of the Rebellion, that Vargr Corsairs are a serious threat to high and medium-high population worlds. Which was exactly my original point: That the evidence introduced by MT materials is inconsistent with the previously published information.
Note that
The Traveller Adventure, where the Kforuzeng are heavily featured, makes it abundantly clear that whatever ships they have, none of them are combat vessels (i.e. ships big enough to carry a spinal mount; 20,000+ dT).
The Domain, OTOH, can call upon the massed forces of 34 subsectors. [...]
In Corridor, the Dzarrgh Federate was a close trading partner of the Imperium, but when the Rebillion occurred, they endorsed looting Imperium territory and even sent their own military assets to do so. [snip]
This is what MT material says, yes. You're missing my point. I'm not saying that MT canon doesn't claim that the Vargr overran Corridor and parts of the Domain of Deneb. I'm saying that this claim is not consistent with previously published material, in particular not consistent with the way the Vargr were originally portrayed (and still were portrayed in MT).
Given that Norris pursues an isolationist position during the Rebellion, the closing of Corridor in beneficial in that it prevents the chaos of the Core from upsetting his domain. Norris is, indeed, not an idiot like Lucan.
Corridor is one thing. I agree that if you rewrite the 'Vargr incursions' to be more like the humans in Corridor rebelling against the Imperium and inviting Vargr in to help them (the way later MT material tried to handwave it), then Corridor can be made marginally plausible. But Norris allows Vargr to invade and occupy worlds in the Domain of Deneb! Worlds that he is personally responsible for protecting. That's IMO not something he'd stand for unless he was unable to do something about it, and what I have been arguing is that he would be able to do something about it. Those Vargr states you talk about span perhaps half or one or two subsectors each. Some may be bigger (I don't have the map here), but if you read the general remarks about Vargr interstellar states in AM3, you'll notice that the bigger they are, the looser they're organized and the more dissenters they contain. Whereas the Domain of Deneb can call on the massed,
coordinated forces of 34 subsectors.
On an idea closer to the topic here, what about Impie pirates crossing into Vargr space for raiding? If there is profit to be had with little risk, someone be doing it. So far, the consensus is that the Vargr are not a real threat, so Impies should have an easy time. After all, Impie pirates in Imperial space will have batrons chasing them down, eh?
No, Impie pirates in Imperial space won't have BatRons chasing them. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that. The closest, I believe, was the observation (in the early days of the debate) that if the Imperium bought one less
Tigress, it could buy enough
Chrysanthemums to station one in each system in a sector. It was never a serious suggestion, merely a way to argue that it was likely that the Imperium did have lots and lots of destroyer- and escort-sized vessels in addition to all its cruisers and battleships.
As for Impie pirates in the Vargr Extents, they have the same problem that all pirates have with worlds with decent populations. Whether they have the other problem those operating inside the Imperium have (the dire need to keep their identities and home base a secret from the Imperium) depends on your view of how the Imperium would regard them. If it's with indulgence, life becomes considerably easier for them. Personally, I don't think the IN or someone like Norris would regard them with indulgence, but I could see some other border duke closing his eyes to such shenanigans.
Hans
