Exactly. In the Traveller universe, the navies are not under the same kind of oversight that present-day navies are.
Hans
Fleet Standard Close Escort?
- Thread starter Garyius2003
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Hans
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Ahh, but unless the patrol vessels are part of the planetary defense forces, it is likely that patrol ships will have to behave in the same way that the U.S. Navy has had to behave off of Somalia, i.e. they have been unable until recently to pursue the pirates into Somali waters (in TU terms, this would be inside the 100d limit) without an international incident.
After all, having pirates available in the game gives Navy players, as well as pirate players, another reason to adventure. And an international incident could be a cool roleplay opportunity.
After all, having pirates available in the game gives Navy players, as well as pirate players, another reason to adventure. And an international incident could be a cool roleplay opportunity.
For the Classic Traveller Era, Imperial intervention is a given - no hesitation.
Rebellion or post Virus, a pirate could play a game of brinksmanship along a contested border. A military ship that follows the pirate across the border could trigger a new shooting war.
Are there any 3RD Imperium borders too volatile to allow unrestricted military action?
Pendragonman,
And that is exactly why I am strongly pro-pirate in Traveller. Pirates are fun and we play to have fun.
This isn't a case of not understanding your "position". This is a case of your position not being internally consistent. You're not presenting a different opinion. You're opinion is wrong even within your own assumptions and, when that is pointed out to you, you huff about people not using the "proper" tactics or some such nonsense.
Short sighted? For Pete's sake... I've already mentioned earlier in this thread that HG2's Long range is a maximum of 15 Mayday hexes (Short is 0 - 5 hexes and Long is 6 - 15 hexes). Why are you bringing either of those two games back into the conversation anyway?
When I used examples from Mayday and HG2 earlier, you sniffed that you used LBB:2's more accurate vector movement system. I next pointed out that the weapon ranges in your preferred ship combat system meant your idea didn't work, so now you've skipped back to HG2/Mayday and their shorter ranges.
Quit tapdancing and pick a system, then we all can tell you why your ideas still don't work.
Bill
P.S. Your Somalia example is flawed for the OTU's Third Imperium. Unlike the USN, the IN won't need to worry about violating Somalia's territorial waters. The same territorial issues keep piracy in the Straits of Malacca active too.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
So, it is your claim that there are absolutely no non aligned or non Imperial aligned planets in and around the borders of all the 3I? After all, your case of saying that the IN won't have to worry about territorial issues is based on you assertion of complete, absolute alignment of all planets within and near the 3I. After all, the US Navy doesn't worry about piracy in our coastal waters, just like the IN wouldn't worry about piracy within their dense areas. Piracy doesn't happen in Lake Michigan, but at the ends of the reach of the US Navy. Just like it would happen for Imperial enforcement.
There are large (ish) regions of the Spinward Marches that, while under the influence of the Iridium Throne, are not client states of the Imperium. These are the areas that piracy would be likely, and thus the likely areas of our conversation. You are saying that there would not be any issues with the local governments about IN incursions. Would not that kind of incursion perhaps shift that planet toward Zho influence? If not, why do you think so?
Since you constantly claim I am making special cases, I want to be clear as to your position.
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pendragonman:
There are very few polities dangerous enough to prevent a 3I charge in and smash the pirates: The Zhodani, the Solomani, and the K'Kree come to mind.
The Julian protectorate could survive a local push; but in repelling it, they're likely to wind up stirring up the 3I, and get eaten by the combined mass of the domain.
The Sword Worlds and the Darrians can't; the Swordies, canonically, had lots of help staying extra-imperial. The Darrian tech edge over the imperium is a fallacy (propaganda, to be specific) and almost meaningless in CT or MT terms, and pretty trivial in TNE terms.
The Solomani are unwilling to provoke further Imperial agression until they have built up enough to retake their "Home-world" from the Imperials, and further, they were imperials (in an autonomous region) for much of the 3I.
The K'Kree know they can't handle the 3I as is; they need some other BIG conflagration to be able to achieve their goals.
The Zhodani keep TRIGGERING frontier wars... to keep the local imperial fleet from thinking they can just whomp upon the Zhodani. These wars are expensive enough that Capital notices.
The Vargr Extents, however, present a pricklier problem: any one vargr state could easily be toppled. But, the more one topples, the more the others will gang up to get rid of the überhund. A unfied vargr extents is not something the Domain can handle, and the extents can easily cut the domain of deneb off. So toppling the locals isn't doing. But, by the same token, not a one can stop you from pursuit if you intend to, but they can and will make it painful, and be generally uncoöperative in the process.
There are very few polities dangerous enough to prevent a 3I charge in and smash the pirates: The Zhodani, the Solomani, and the K'Kree come to mind.
The Julian protectorate could survive a local push; but in repelling it, they're likely to wind up stirring up the 3I, and get eaten by the combined mass of the domain.
The Sword Worlds and the Darrians can't; the Swordies, canonically, had lots of help staying extra-imperial. The Darrian tech edge over the imperium is a fallacy (propaganda, to be specific) and almost meaningless in CT or MT terms, and pretty trivial in TNE terms.
The Solomani are unwilling to provoke further Imperial agression until they have built up enough to retake their "Home-world" from the Imperials, and further, they were imperials (in an autonomous region) for much of the 3I.
The K'Kree know they can't handle the 3I as is; they need some other BIG conflagration to be able to achieve their goals.
The Zhodani keep TRIGGERING frontier wars... to keep the local imperial fleet from thinking they can just whomp upon the Zhodani. These wars are expensive enough that Capital notices.
The Vargr Extents, however, present a pricklier problem: any one vargr state could easily be toppled. But, the more one topples, the more the others will gang up to get rid of the überhund. A unfied vargr extents is not something the Domain can handle, and the extents can easily cut the domain of deneb off. So toppling the locals isn't doing. But, by the same token, not a one can stop you from pursuit if you intend to, but they can and will make it painful, and be generally uncoöperative in the process.
I have a different take on 'piracy'..
As long as there is a demand for something, someone will attempt to supply that demand. The more rare that something is, the more it will cost. So long as someone thinks they can gain profit from it, they'll do it. Piracy is simply someone attempting to become a middleman through trickery or force. It may be through the stereotypical ship-ship action, or it may be through paperwork dirtside. Pirates go after high-profit margin goods....not bulk grain or coal shipments.
Another action that might be called 'piracy' is the halting of movement of goods in order to make the goods more rare ( drive supply down ) so that price goes up.
Pirates WILL exist, regardless of the actual proper legal terminology although it may not look like the action movie ideal of dashing swashbuckling captains in hot-rod spaceships with crossbones painted on the side.
Pirates are middlemen and smugglers are transporters for black economies.
The more effective the Imps are at piracy suppression, the high the prices will be until someone decides the potential gain is worth the risk.
IMTU the IMPS don't get involved unless it begins to negatively affect interplanetary trade enough to make the costs of sending fleets/ships there neccesary to prevent losses. The Imperium won't spend trillions of credits over years to stop a problem that costs only a few hundred thousands of credits in losses. Thus most anti-piracy work is done by system defenses paid for by the world's navy. Losses mean more than lost cargo, but also in the reputation a world has for being dangerous to trade with ( which drives prices up, if nothing else to pay for added insurance ). But then think of the backhanded games that insurance companies can play; simulate minor piracy in order to charge more for insurance with the world navy picking up the tab, ultimately.
Arguments about fleets and power and stuff mean nothing to me, because I don't slavishly follow canon or what canon might imply...especially where it interferes with a good action sequence.
Hmmmmmm..given the romantic views of dashing pirate captains that the typical impie couch potato has, would entertainment networks secretly fund pirates in the making of 'reality' shows? with governments taking a kickback be less 'active' in anti-pirate missions?..or to look the other way with the player's ship becoming an unwitting 'star' in the show?
( idea from Max Headroom about news networks sponsoring criminals/terrorists to do flashy crimes/attacks in return for being given tips before the event so news cameras could film it...and gain higher ratings )
just ideas.....
As long as there is a demand for something, someone will attempt to supply that demand. The more rare that something is, the more it will cost. So long as someone thinks they can gain profit from it, they'll do it. Piracy is simply someone attempting to become a middleman through trickery or force. It may be through the stereotypical ship-ship action, or it may be through paperwork dirtside. Pirates go after high-profit margin goods....not bulk grain or coal shipments.
Another action that might be called 'piracy' is the halting of movement of goods in order to make the goods more rare ( drive supply down ) so that price goes up.
Pirates WILL exist, regardless of the actual proper legal terminology although it may not look like the action movie ideal of dashing swashbuckling captains in hot-rod spaceships with crossbones painted on the side.
Pirates are middlemen and smugglers are transporters for black economies.
The more effective the Imps are at piracy suppression, the high the prices will be until someone decides the potential gain is worth the risk.
IMTU the IMPS don't get involved unless it begins to negatively affect interplanetary trade enough to make the costs of sending fleets/ships there neccesary to prevent losses. The Imperium won't spend trillions of credits over years to stop a problem that costs only a few hundred thousands of credits in losses. Thus most anti-piracy work is done by system defenses paid for by the world's navy. Losses mean more than lost cargo, but also in the reputation a world has for being dangerous to trade with ( which drives prices up, if nothing else to pay for added insurance ). But then think of the backhanded games that insurance companies can play; simulate minor piracy in order to charge more for insurance with the world navy picking up the tab, ultimately.
Arguments about fleets and power and stuff mean nothing to me, because I don't slavishly follow canon or what canon might imply...especially where it interferes with a good action sequence.
Hmmmmmm..given the romantic views of dashing pirate captains that the typical impie couch potato has, would entertainment networks secretly fund pirates in the making of 'reality' shows? with governments taking a kickback be less 'active' in anti-pirate missions?..or to look the other way with the player's ship becoming an unwitting 'star' in the show?
( idea from Max Headroom about news networks sponsoring criminals/terrorists to do flashy crimes/attacks in return for being given tips before the event so news cameras could film it...and gain higher ratings )
just ideas.....
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
That does not mean, for one moment, that the 3I would not be careful not to create political incidents with the smaller polities.
A Terrestrial example I can point to, and surely you must agree with, is Somalia. There is no way on God's green earth that anyone could construe that Somalia could stop the U.S from doing what it wanted in Somalia's territorial waters. It is not a case of being able to stop the U.S Navy, but the political repercussions of such an act.
Are you saying that there would not be, and never could be, any political fallout from any Imperial Navy incursion into the "coastal waters" of the small polities? Why do you think the Zho keep "starting" the Frontier Wars? (I'm sure from the Zho point of view the wars are meant to stop Imperial aggression, and therefore are started by the 3I
I have never said that the Imperial Navy, in the physical act of gunning down pirates could be stopped by the local defense forces(if I have, please quote me so I can be reminded). I have always maintained that the political fallout of such an act by the Imperial Navy would not be worth it.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Your position is the one I have been trying to make. I thank you for phrasing it waaaaaaaaay better than I apparently have done.
Already answered: "The Imperium is quite willing to intervene. They replaced the entire government of Tarkine and sent a 60,000T ship to remonstrate with the people of Lewis." [Me, in a recent post.]
What does that have to do with the question of whether piracy in the TU makes sense? Yes, pirates are fun. That's why I use them in my campaigns. I've also used them occasionally in the stuff I've written for JTAS Online. I repeat: Pirates are fun. But I nevertheless try to stay away from pirates that lurk at the jump limit of worlds with Class A and B starports waiting for hapless free traders to jump in and get captured.
Hans
The Vargr Extents represents a problem if one ignores what was originally established about Vargr corsairs (as MT did). JTAS #21 describes a Vargr corsair band, the Kforuzeng, in considerable detail. It was the most powerful Vargr corsair band in Gvurrdon Sector, operating in the Firgr subsector and (at their height) some adjacent territories. From 1105 to 1107, it virtually monopolized all corsair activity along most of the length of the Domain of Deneb border. It remained the largest band even after severe decline. (Emphasis mine).
And how big was it? The original band had about 10 ships, mostly type VP corsairs (400 T) and similar vessels. Around 1085 the band had "an aging fleet of about 20 ships with an average tonnage of 400 tons" and had a range that "spanned several subsectors along and just beyond the Imperial border". At its peak it had 35 or more ships ranging from 100 to 1000 tons in size.
In other words, something that a single light cruiser could wipe out if the band was ever incautious enough to get inside its range. Well... OK, maybe you'd need a full CruDiv (two light cruisers plus their escorts).
This was the biggest band in Gvurrdon and along the whole Domain of Deneb border. What does that say about the rest of the Vargr corsair community?
With the Rebellion, it appears that combat vessels from national navies decided to go into business for themselves (There's a 'typical corsair' detailed somewhere and it's a light cruiser). I won't go into what problems I think a full cruiser would have keeping in the black, but prior to the Rebellion, the Vargr problem must have been a very small one 'below the line', i.e. rimwards of the Imperial border. One wonders who those corsairs that BtC and Star Mercs mention who attack worlds with populations into the tens of millions are really working for...
Hans
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pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
And hence giving the opportunistic Zho yet another way to lever sympathies in the unaligned/border regions away from the Irridium Throne.
As also answered by someone other than me, this is why the Zho keep "starting" the frontier wars. And taking ground away from the Imperium, like after 3FW.
Could be. The Imperium certainly hasn't been very successful in persuading the worlds in District 268 to join. Two worlds have joined in 500 years. But then, the Imperium hasn't been interested in expansion in 500 years. It's even allowed at least one world (Ucella) to leave peacefully (The worlds in Vilis don't count; that was forced on the Imperium).
None of that changes the fact that the Imperium is willing to interfere with independent worlds that support piracy.
The Zho motive for the frontier wars was explained in one of the MT books (Referee's Companion?). They want to prevent the Imperium from moving into Foreven Sector and preempting the worlds there. See, the Zhodani stopped expanding 2000 years ago to consolidate and intends to begin expanding again eventually.
Hans
Except, Hans, that the Kforuzeng were probably written with a bk 2 universe with few ships period in mind; it's an '84 copyright, and IIRC, all the ships listed are Bk2. (I didn't get HG until '85, myself...)
In that small ship universe, a light cruiser is 800 tons (Mayday), and a battlecruiser is 1250... I've got that one (somewhere), I should take a look.
Bob Weaver
SOC-12
Hans,
If you are implying that the biggest band in Gvurrdon was not at all militarily powerful, I agree with your assessment entirely. But for what it's worth I bet the commander of said band did not get to his position of (nominal) power by being foolish. A single light cruiser could, in a stand up fight, demolish the corsair band without taking too much damage itself. But the pirates will never give it the chance. Pirates, having no territory to 'hold' will run from a superior force.
It would take an amazing bit of trickery to get all the ships together in a position such that they had to fight or die. Much more likely that the corsairs would, as soon as the CruDiv was detected, scatter & jump out-system to regroup later. The CruDiv might pick off one or two ships but the rest would escape. And given the territory they covered, its unlikely that the whole band would be in one system at any time to begin with.
Not quite so simple to get rid of them, I'm afraid. And the other, smaller corsair bands represent the exact same problem. They have to be hunted down individually to really get rid of them.
Cheers,
Bob W
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
What better way to "prevent" Imperial expansion than to react to "overt threats" to non aligned worlds?
What better way to prepare areas for eventual Zho control than to champion the small polities position against the Imperium?
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
I think you are thinking Kinunir. That is listed as a Colonial Cruiser in Supplement 9.
Kinuinir: It's in adventure 1, Pendragonman, as a battlecruiser.
Mayday lists a cruiser at 800 tons. As does CT Bk2.
It's an issue of two very different understandings of the 3I existing, both enshrined in rules, but being incompatible.
In a small ship low traffic universe, the Kforuzeng are a force to be reckoned with.
In the big-ship huge-traffic of the later traveller (post 84), they are a nothing.
in the 1981-1984 time frame, both were in use in JTAS articles, without much thought either way.
I'm arguing that the article on the Kforuzeng was probably written for the small-ship low-traffic universe, which was a common theme in many people's games.
Still is. Only now, we call that "prototraveller" since it is incompatible with the later OTU.
Mayday lists a cruiser at 800 tons. As does CT Bk2.
It's an issue of two very different understandings of the 3I existing, both enshrined in rules, but being incompatible.
In a small ship low traffic universe, the Kforuzeng are a force to be reckoned with.
In the big-ship huge-traffic of the later traveller (post 84), they are a nothing.
in the 1981-1984 time frame, both were in use in JTAS articles, without much thought either way.
I'm arguing that the article on the Kforuzeng was probably written for the small-ship low-traffic universe, which was a common theme in many people's games.
Still is. Only now, we call that "prototraveller" since it is incompatible with the later OTU.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Well, there you are.
I personally try to run the low traffic TUs.
I personally try to run the low traffic TUs.
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