Wow, I don't remember a specfic citation regarding Foreven; I've got to go back and look at that again (if I still even own that book).
Fleet Standard Close Escort?
- Thread starter Garyius2003
- Start date
Wow, I don't remember a specfic citation regarding Foreven; I've got to go back and look at that again (if I still even own that book).
'Probably'? Where do you get the 'probably' from? I'm not even sure I'd go with 'arguably'. High Guard came out in 1979. JTAS 21 came out in 1984.
What ships are you talking about that are Bk.2 designs?
Edit: Is it the Type VP Corsairs? Yes, they are Bk. 2 designs. But, since HG expressly allowed Bk. 2 designs to remain valid (A really bad idea, IMO, but that's by the way), they're also HG designs. Still, their mention does mean that I'd accept 'arguably'
. But absolutely nothing even close to 'probably'. After all, we know from The Traveller Adventure that the Kforuzeng never did have any cruisers (Think about the mcguffin that the Kforuzeng is trying to get their paws on).I totally agree that in a small ship universe, the Kforuzeng roster would be a powerful one. I just don't agree that anything published in 1984 would assume a small ship universe as the default.
Hans
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I agree. I was arguing against the Vargr being a significant threat to the Imperium, or even just the Domain of Deneb(or just Corridor). The Kforuzeng could never invade and hold any Imperial system. Except that in MT, we're told that they do. A lot.
But they don't have to be hunted down, just kept away. And if they invade a system and stay there, they can be kicked out again by a minute fraction of the forces available to the Domain.
Hans
But that was due to the whole "artificial personality construct uniting the Vargr" concept DGP threw in to MT.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Any Vagr band with more than three ships can do some pretty raiding of imperial border worlds. And they WILL have the firepower to kill that escort.
Sure, if they stay even the Impies will eventually catch them. But like Henry Morgan they WON'T stay. Rob Maracaibo, load the loot and run long before the Spainards arrive. (Wrecking your flagship is optional)
Sure the "allmighty 3I" can do punitive expeditions IF they can find out which band was responsibel and IF that band is not in the Zhodanie Sphere of Interest and IF they can get there without having to alienate half a dozend other groups.
A lot of IF's given that we are talking about the geriatric and inbred 3I here with it's really sterling intelligence records.
Sure, if they stay even the Impies will eventually catch them. But like Henry Morgan they WON'T stay. Rob Maracaibo, load the loot and run long before the Spainards arrive. (Wrecking your flagship is optional)
Sure the "allmighty 3I" can do punitive expeditions IF they can find out which band was responsibel and IF that band is not in the Zhodanie Sphere of Interest and IF they can get there without having to alienate half a dozend other groups.
A lot of IF's given that we are talking about the geriatric and inbred 3I here with it's really sterling intelligence records.
True, provided that escort is alone. Will it be? The worlds along the Vargr border have been living next door to a rapacious raider culture for half a millennium. What are the odds that they really, really appreciate the need for adequate defense? Pretty good, I'd say.
Remember, 3% of GWP military spending is an average for the whole Imperium. Any world that feels the need can spend more. Striker says up to 10% of GWP is possible for peacetime budgets. Real Life says somewhere around 8%, I think (I believe US Cold War military budgets reached 8 point something). And with corsairs bands roaming just across the border, who wouldn't feel the need?
Next question is, assuming for purposes of argument that the Vargr can find a world that's only guarded by a single patrol ship (I assume that by 'escort' you don't mean a Sloan
), will a Vargr band of three ships want to have a shot at it? That would depend on what it was guarding. Corsair ships cost money. Repairing combat damage costs money. And unlike the escort, the corsairs don't have a government to pay for the ships and the repairs. There's only one source of income, and that's loot. Corsairs are privateers. That means that every time they put themselves in harm's way, they want the odds to be good that they'll gain more than they lose. And with three ships, you need three times the loot to keep in the black. Which means that they have to go for richer targets -- worlds that can afford to maintain bigger defenses.It's all interlinked.
No argument. But where will they run to? They need someplace to sell their loot and get their ships maintained.
Compared to the cost of ships, intelligence gathering is dirt cheap, albeit rather slow due to communication distances. Those Vargr corsairs better have excellent security!
What intelligence records?
Hans
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
And that famous 3% are coming up again. That number is from a de-canonised source and was a "Theoretical" number all the time. Just because one can spend that money does not mean one will do it. Given a nobility I'd say it won't be spend.
As for the sterling intelligence record - the 3I has none. Three Blind Mice (and not the 2300AD version) is a good description of Imperial Intelligence and it's capabilities to underestimate enemies or be caught with the trousers down.
As for the sterling intelligence record - the 3I has none. Three Blind Mice (and not the 2300AD version) is a good description of Imperial Intelligence and it's capabilities to underestimate enemies or be caught with the trousers down.
There's a failure of communication here. 3% defense spending is LOW for any state with enemies.
Because nobles don't want to defend their homes from acquisitive neighbors?
Hans
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Because nobles will find dozends of ways to squander away the money like building ugly castles (Neuschwanstein), funny uniforms for the guards etc.
They have done that in the past, they will do that in the future.
It seems to me that the Vargr governments will also invest in their military at the same rates as the Imps..maybe moreso because of their penchant for fighting or showing off power to other Vargr governments. It also seems to me that the reason they do not compete with the Imps is because their weapons are faced towards each other mostly as a group of smaller warring states. But they would unite as a race against 'alien' invaders.
I feel that to judge the Vargr's naval assets based on a single raiding band is to engage in Impie propaganda, usually aimed at Impie citizens to make them feel better. The Vargr governments don't hinder the bands for their own reasons; higher government charisma at tweaking the big bully's nose. Vargr citizens eat that stuff up and it makes them look powerful to other Vargr polities.
Vargr government won't hinder the raiders because of racial bias ( so what?..the Imps are only bald monkey-boys ) but they also won't risk going to war with the Imps over something so minor either, so they do work to keep raiders in check, even if only by social engineering or threats of a bigger stick.
During the rebellion, Vargr navies crossed into the corridor in force ( not all Vargr, but a few border states ) which also implies a more formidable force than is being bandied about here. Weaker states taking advantage of a situation that assumes the Imps won't be able to bring their full force to bear, but only a relatively limited response which the Vargr feel they can handle.
well, this is my opinion anyways...and I'm often heretical
I feel that to judge the Vargr's naval assets based on a single raiding band is to engage in Impie propaganda, usually aimed at Impie citizens to make them feel better. The Vargr governments don't hinder the bands for their own reasons; higher government charisma at tweaking the big bully's nose. Vargr citizens eat that stuff up and it makes them look powerful to other Vargr polities.
Vargr government won't hinder the raiders because of racial bias ( so what?..the Imps are only bald monkey-boys ) but they also won't risk going to war with the Imps over something so minor either, so they do work to keep raiders in check, even if only by social engineering or threats of a bigger stick.
During the rebellion, Vargr navies crossed into the corridor in force ( not all Vargr, but a few border states ) which also implies a more formidable force than is being bandied about here. Weaker states taking advantage of a situation that assumes the Imps won't be able to bring their full force to bear, but only a relatively limited response which the Vargr feel they can handle.
well, this is my opinion anyways...and I'm often heretical
Sorry, I'm lost. To what are you referring?
Agreed. I myself would cheerfully accept a peacetime military budget for Vargr states of 10% of GWP. As you say, they're surrounded by other Vargr states, which must make them feel very unsafe.
I don't see why they would necessarily unite in the face of alien invaders. They might, but then again, they might not. But it's moot, because the Imperium isn't invading them during the Rebellion. For the Vargr, it must be self-interest (enlightened or not as the case might be) all the way.
I'm not judging the naval assets of Vargr states based on a single raiding band[*]. I'm judging the assets of the subsection of Vargr society that makes it's living by raiding. It is my belief that Vargr heads of state generally doesn't have much reason for or interest in sending off large parts of their military forces to places dozen of parsecs away. The size of Vargr naval assets is of interest in evaluating how many individual ship captains may decide to desert and set up on their own, but presumably that won't be anywhere near the entire massed navies.
[*] BTW, nor really a fair description of what is clearly stated to be the biggest raiding band around.
I agree completely.
Yes, but that's where I feel the implausibility lies. The Vargr invaders would logically be a limited part of a limited slice of the Vargr Extents (And the further away a Vargr world is, the more limited the percentage of ships they will 'supply').
The Domain, OTOH, can call upon the massed forces of 34 subsectors. Granted, in 1117 Norris orders most of those forces to assemble in Vilis to stave off the Zhodani assault he expects, but, not being an idiot like Lucan, is he really going to strip the subsectors that borders on a rapacious raider culture completely bare? These worlds supply him with the resources to field the forces he needs to stave off the Zhodani. If the Vargr takes over a world, he loses the taxes he needs to keep his ships flying. Moreover, the worlds will have fixed defenses that won't be removed.
Next, what are the subsectors going to do after they wave goodbye to most of their ships? First, they're going to reactivate whatever mothballed ships they have lying around. Then they're going to start building more ships. The Marches just went on a war footing. That means the military budgets just went up.
Now, the first of those reactivated ships may be sent off to Vilis too. But if the Vargr have begun acting frisky, it's far more likely that they will be used to do something about it. Think about what would have happened if a band of Mexican bandits had crossed the border and taken over an American town in 1944. Do you think the authorities would have kept shipping off troops overseas as they finished their training, or do you think they would have scraped up a small force to go remonstrate with the bandits?
Finally, even if at first every ship gets sent to Vilis as fast as it becomes available, the Zhodani never shows up. Eventually it's going to dawn on Norris that maybe they won't come, at least not just yet. At that point (late 1117?) he'll begin diverting a few of the reinforcements to deal with the active hot spots along his borders.
I submit that whatever glory days the Vargr may have had will be over at this point.
Hans
"fleet standard" Close Escort, hmm. Both the published designs are broke. personally i like the T Patrol escort better, the troops can reload the turrets for continual missile fire (50t cgo!). Odd neither have any defenses like sand. fleet standard, J4M6, is doable at TLD. IMTU not TL15 Imp, TL12 say. maybe 13.
That said using PAs gets rad damage and avoids multimillion nuc missile volleys, in LBB2 is a deadly thing, passable in HG with the /6 vs fighters, to my thinking.
Pirates (dare i wade in?)
Another (canon?) fleet budget might be T4 pocket empires economy rules. i like em a lot though the RP to MCr seems to high by a factor of 1k, attack/def factors seem very too pricey by a factor of 10, gives some indication of trade by RP import/export (lacking a milk by MCorps there though), and i think the tactical/strategic ranges should be per 2 week turn rather than by year, otherwise it seems to take ungodly years to scout at lower TLs (strong arguement for the LBB2 high jump by TL ships). those factors above from back converting a 1kt 1/1/1 (J1T1)freighter as able to carry a RP, 10kCr/yr avg income, the attack/defense/transport/jump factor pricing also said freighter derived. Deep space bases seem too expensive. Unit maintence seems off. works great! ymmv.
I'm a BIG fan of the Imperium was formed to foster TRADE. increasing trade volume increases interchange and travel between the stars, this ends the long night. Trade economics change when you own the ships outright. shipping (speculative, purchased) grain can be big bucks. The lack of hydroponics and need for 2kCr/wk means a moon colony or whatever is a pure gravy run. Many pocket empires (pirates hm?) were bypassed in the imperiums early expansion. specifically mentioned is the problem of guarding against pirate attacks on such a large scale with limited resources, complicated even further by a 2 week response time minimum (assuming word gets out at all assume a picket scout that runs for help maybe). Mention is made of XBoat tenders being popular pirate prey. they are *not* stationed close to all this 100d picket stuff you two are on about. One hit could net a pirate a 1000t ship carrying 2 s/c or 4 xboat. swap the engines out, i've had some fun designing pirate ships from those drives. a /4 on the xboat even!
just as a pirate wants to avoid damage, i'd argue the loot from a xboat tender could net you the drives to make a sweet pirate vessel, even a lil fleet if it were carrying anything (and lookie here here comes a Xboat jumping in!). the same holds true for free-trader, even subsidized merchants. one hit that ship cannot afford to repair itself, will likely miss it's mortgage, or if subsidized there went any chance of a profit for months, or more. A merchant captain, picket or no if shot will very likely lose his ship (harsh interstellar economics, HARSH!) Question is could the picket prevent the pirate from shooting at or hitting the merchant *at all*? likely not. one hull hit and everyone aboard (or most, guess some get that save for donning a vacc suit hm?) are dead anyhow. thinking about it, that trader prolly is losing his ship from losing the cargo, hm? they sell em on auction? even if the pirate doesn't get the cargo.
IMTU i think maybe trade in larger scales are megacorp or big corp owned ships, not mortgaged, owning the cargo (heck, prolly even *made* the cargo), *very likely* along well patrolled routes escorted in convoys by destroyers (chrysanthemums n such have bad designs to my mind, can't hit fighters too well) handily along xboat routes. off the routes it gets, rough.
All this about picket vs pirate and jump shadows, ok that's how you all do it. I never thought one could be that precise on jumping, maybe with a good survey, most probably use derived jump calcs from massaged (and sold!) scout data. hey i got a one-use jump drive cassete, J1 10kCr. sell it to you for 5k, what ya say? (says the pirate to the victim, meanwhile a ship awaits at the jump destination muwahaha). The picket 100d scenario sounds like a guarded world, i don't see many pirates attacking that, honestly. An angry noble, megacorp move, merc action, sure maybe! T patrol cruisers, CE fleet escorts patrol the badlands, hoping to keep a modicum of peace in the backwaters. Destroyers are guarding the valuable shipping, and cruisers "have better things to do" (like guard their fueler/oilers). Pirates would be really well served by being able to jump out without refuelling. extremely even.
Ts and CEs can jump, they would, otherwise use SDBs/fighters. a fighter base on the world is probably as effective and (a lot?) cheaper than a squadron of Ts or CEs. honestly most protection is prolly just a customs ships boat or some such anyhow, to my mind. SDBs do long, deep patrols, hiding like. a, one volley of nuc missiles is many many many MCr.
some C433548-6 world, said fighters likely. some pirate bands (or Corps, or mercs) could give that a go (they'd be on the run for sure after that though! or the new government leaders lol). D433333-7, um, poor noble. poor colony. pirates prolly could name terms. this would be more like raiding. seize all cargoes at port, drink, loot, low berth hostage/slave a bunch, bail out before the cavalry arrives in 2 weeks (ditto the running).
Space is big, worlds many, even with people all over, resources are limited, it doesn't work having fleets at each world.
Just my thoughts on all this, interesting read the thread, no offense intended, ymmv, is IMTU take on it. A lot depends on the whole big/little, and as the imperium spans over 1000 years there is an immense variation from that alone, place to place, and TL too!, i don't think there's a one-size-fits-all pirate thing.
That said using PAs gets rad damage and avoids multimillion nuc missile volleys, in LBB2 is a deadly thing, passable in HG with the /6 vs fighters, to my thinking.
Pirates (dare i wade in?)
Another (canon?) fleet budget might be T4 pocket empires economy rules. i like em a lot though the RP to MCr seems to high by a factor of 1k, attack/def factors seem very too pricey by a factor of 10, gives some indication of trade by RP import/export (lacking a milk by MCorps there though), and i think the tactical/strategic ranges should be per 2 week turn rather than by year, otherwise it seems to take ungodly years to scout at lower TLs (strong arguement for the LBB2 high jump by TL ships). those factors above from back converting a 1kt 1/1/1 (J1T1)freighter as able to carry a RP, 10kCr/yr avg income, the attack/defense/transport/jump factor pricing also said freighter derived. Deep space bases seem too expensive. Unit maintence seems off. works great! ymmv.
I'm a BIG fan of the Imperium was formed to foster TRADE. increasing trade volume increases interchange and travel between the stars, this ends the long night. Trade economics change when you own the ships outright. shipping (speculative, purchased) grain can be big bucks. The lack of hydroponics and need for 2kCr/wk means a moon colony or whatever is a pure gravy run. Many pocket empires (pirates hm?) were bypassed in the imperiums early expansion. specifically mentioned is the problem of guarding against pirate attacks on such a large scale with limited resources, complicated even further by a 2 week response time minimum (assuming word gets out at all assume a picket scout that runs for help maybe). Mention is made of XBoat tenders being popular pirate prey. they are *not* stationed close to all this 100d picket stuff you two are on about. One hit could net a pirate a 1000t ship carrying 2 s/c or 4 xboat. swap the engines out, i've had some fun designing pirate ships from those drives. a /4 on the xboat even!
just as a pirate wants to avoid damage, i'd argue the loot from a xboat tender could net you the drives to make a sweet pirate vessel, even a lil fleet if it were carrying anything (and lookie here here comes a Xboat jumping in!). the same holds true for free-trader, even subsidized merchants. one hit that ship cannot afford to repair itself, will likely miss it's mortgage, or if subsidized there went any chance of a profit for months, or more. A merchant captain, picket or no if shot will very likely lose his ship (harsh interstellar economics, HARSH!) Question is could the picket prevent the pirate from shooting at or hitting the merchant *at all*? likely not. one hull hit and everyone aboard (or most, guess some get that save for donning a vacc suit hm?) are dead anyhow. thinking about it, that trader prolly is losing his ship from losing the cargo, hm? they sell em on auction? even if the pirate doesn't get the cargo.
IMTU i think maybe trade in larger scales are megacorp or big corp owned ships, not mortgaged, owning the cargo (heck, prolly even *made* the cargo), *very likely* along well patrolled routes escorted in convoys by destroyers (chrysanthemums n such have bad designs to my mind, can't hit fighters too well) handily along xboat routes. off the routes it gets, rough.
All this about picket vs pirate and jump shadows, ok that's how you all do it. I never thought one could be that precise on jumping, maybe with a good survey, most probably use derived jump calcs from massaged (and sold!) scout data. hey i got a one-use jump drive cassete, J1 10kCr. sell it to you for 5k, what ya say? (says the pirate to the victim, meanwhile a ship awaits at the jump destination muwahaha). The picket 100d scenario sounds like a guarded world, i don't see many pirates attacking that, honestly. An angry noble, megacorp move, merc action, sure maybe! T patrol cruisers, CE fleet escorts patrol the badlands, hoping to keep a modicum of peace in the backwaters. Destroyers are guarding the valuable shipping, and cruisers "have better things to do" (like guard their fueler/oilers). Pirates would be really well served by being able to jump out without refuelling. extremely even.
Ts and CEs can jump, they would, otherwise use SDBs/fighters. a fighter base on the world is probably as effective and (a lot?) cheaper than a squadron of Ts or CEs. honestly most protection is prolly just a customs ships boat or some such anyhow, to my mind. SDBs do long, deep patrols, hiding like. a, one volley of nuc missiles is many many many MCr.
some C433548-6 world, said fighters likely. some pirate bands (or Corps, or mercs) could give that a go (they'd be on the run for sure after that though! or the new government leaders lol). D433333-7, um, poor noble. poor colony. pirates prolly could name terms. this would be more like raiding. seize all cargoes at port, drink, loot, low berth hostage/slave a bunch, bail out before the cavalry arrives in 2 weeks (ditto the running).
Space is big, worlds many, even with people all over, resources are limited, it doesn't work having fleets at each world.
Just my thoughts on all this, interesting read the thread, no offense intended, ymmv, is IMTU take on it. A lot depends on the whole big/little, and as the imperium spans over 1000 years there is an immense variation from that alone, place to place, and TL too!, i don't think there's a one-size-fits-all pirate thing.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
My take on piracy within the proto-Traveller setting:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5122
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5122
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Olav hault-Plankwell - They didn't see the Rebellion coming
Solomanie Rim War - Guess the BADLY underestimated the enemy
Border wars against the Zhos - Always starting with a "surprise attack"
Dulinor - Only GT saw it coming but they that LKW as HeadOfIntelligence
Ine Givar - Infiltrating a FLEET DEPOT and only being stopped by the NAVY destroying the captured (and already fleeing) ships
Just some of the bigger canon examples.
Starviking
SOC-13
Wasn't that done by "The Fourth Imperium" a Villani Supremicist group founded by Zid Rachelle on Pretoria, Deneb? (Travellers' Digest 7)
Starviking
We agree on some things, but not on others. 
Just for sake of discussion, I think I need to mention that my source is DGP 'Vilani & Vargr '... I got rid of a bunch of wargaming and rpg stuff years ago, so can't look things up in them anymore.
***I don't see why they would necessarily unite in the face of alien invaders. They might, but then again, they might not. But it's moot, because the Imperium isn't invading them during the Rebellion. For the Vargr, it must be self-interest (enlightened or not as the case might be) all the way. ***
Agreed, the Imperium didn't invade them, however, the idea that an incursion into Vargr space could cause them to act united against a single enemy instead of fighting amongst themselves would bring about fears of territoriality concerns.
***[*] BTW, nor really a fair description of what is clearly stated to be the biggest raiding band around.***
From my source, the Kforuzeng were most powerful corsair band in the Gvurrdon sector. They absorbed several other bands, among them the Aegzaeng, who provided ground forces and hired out as mercenaries. The Kforuzeng began to splinter prior to the rebellion with the Ethueng breaking away and hired by Tukera as escorts and raiders against Tukera competitors. If not for the Oekhsos tirades and other anti-Imperium propaganda, they would have disbanded permanently by 1115. That description hardly fits the pitiful order of battle mentioned in earlier posts. At least not in the big-ship OTU.
***Yes, but that's where I feel the implausibility lies. The Vargr invaders would logically be a limited part of a limited slice of the Vargr Extents (And the further away a Vargr world is, the more limited the percentage of ships they will 'supply').***
***The Domain, OTOH, can call upon the massed forces of 34 subsectors. Granted, in 1117 Norris orders most of those forces to assemble in Vilis to stave off the Zhodani assault he expects, but, not being an idiot like Lucan, is he really going to strip the subsectors that borders on a rapacious raider culture completely bare? These worlds supply him with the resources to field the forces he needs to stave off the Zhodani. If the Vargr takes over a world, he loses the taxes he needs to keep his ships flying. Moreover, the worlds will have fixed defenses that won't be removed.***
In Corridor, the Dzarrgh Federate was a close trading partner of the Imperium, but when the Rebillion occured, they endorsed looting Imperium territory and even sent their own military assets to do so. The other main group to do so were the 'Glory of Taarskoernz' which failed to take Depot. A corair group, 'the Vaenggvae' acting as mercenaries to them succeeded in coercing Depot's personnel and thus becoming so powerful that it could ( and did ) dictate policy to its former employers. This group was present, with humans, at important negotiations concerning territorial disputes which ended with the Dzarrgh Federate controlling most of the worlds in the Corridor. It is suggeted that Denebian interests were involved with Vaenggvae interests.
Given that Norris pursues an isolationist position during the Rebellion, the closing of Corridor in beneficial in that it prevents the chaos of the Core from upsetting his domain. Norris is, indeed, not an idiot like Lucan.
***I submit that whatever glory days the Vargr may have had will be over at this point.***
And I submit that the glory days of the Vargr are unchanged.
On an idea closer to the topic here, what about Impie pirates crossing into Vargr space for raiding? If there is profit to be had with little risk, someone be doing it. So far, the consensus is that the Vargr are not a real threat, so Impies should have an easy time. After all, Impie pirates in Imperial space will have batrons chasing them down, eh?
Hans is quoted by statements marked with asterisks
I was too dumb to figure out 'quoting'..sorry for any confusion
Just for sake of discussion, I think I need to mention that my source is DGP 'Vilani & Vargr '... I got rid of a bunch of wargaming and rpg stuff years ago, so can't look things up in them anymore.
***I don't see why they would necessarily unite in the face of alien invaders. They might, but then again, they might not. But it's moot, because the Imperium isn't invading them during the Rebellion. For the Vargr, it must be self-interest (enlightened or not as the case might be) all the way. ***
Agreed, the Imperium didn't invade them, however, the idea that an incursion into Vargr space could cause them to act united against a single enemy instead of fighting amongst themselves would bring about fears of territoriality concerns.
***[*] BTW, nor really a fair description of what is clearly stated to be the biggest raiding band around.***
From my source, the Kforuzeng were most powerful corsair band in the Gvurrdon sector. They absorbed several other bands, among them the Aegzaeng, who provided ground forces and hired out as mercenaries. The Kforuzeng began to splinter prior to the rebellion with the Ethueng breaking away and hired by Tukera as escorts and raiders against Tukera competitors. If not for the Oekhsos tirades and other anti-Imperium propaganda, they would have disbanded permanently by 1115. That description hardly fits the pitiful order of battle mentioned in earlier posts. At least not in the big-ship OTU.
***Yes, but that's where I feel the implausibility lies. The Vargr invaders would logically be a limited part of a limited slice of the Vargr Extents (And the further away a Vargr world is, the more limited the percentage of ships they will 'supply').***
***The Domain, OTOH, can call upon the massed forces of 34 subsectors. Granted, in 1117 Norris orders most of those forces to assemble in Vilis to stave off the Zhodani assault he expects, but, not being an idiot like Lucan, is he really going to strip the subsectors that borders on a rapacious raider culture completely bare? These worlds supply him with the resources to field the forces he needs to stave off the Zhodani. If the Vargr takes over a world, he loses the taxes he needs to keep his ships flying. Moreover, the worlds will have fixed defenses that won't be removed.***
In Corridor, the Dzarrgh Federate was a close trading partner of the Imperium, but when the Rebillion occured, they endorsed looting Imperium territory and even sent their own military assets to do so. The other main group to do so were the 'Glory of Taarskoernz' which failed to take Depot. A corair group, 'the Vaenggvae' acting as mercenaries to them succeeded in coercing Depot's personnel and thus becoming so powerful that it could ( and did ) dictate policy to its former employers. This group was present, with humans, at important negotiations concerning territorial disputes which ended with the Dzarrgh Federate controlling most of the worlds in the Corridor. It is suggeted that Denebian interests were involved with Vaenggvae interests.
Given that Norris pursues an isolationist position during the Rebellion, the closing of Corridor in beneficial in that it prevents the chaos of the Core from upsetting his domain. Norris is, indeed, not an idiot like Lucan.
***I submit that whatever glory days the Vargr may have had will be over at this point.***
And I submit that the glory days of the Vargr are unchanged.
On an idea closer to the topic here, what about Impie pirates crossing into Vargr space for raiding? If there is profit to be had with little risk, someone be doing it. So far, the consensus is that the Vargr are not a real threat, so Impies should have an easy time. After all, Impie pirates in Imperial space will have batrons chasing them down, eh?
Hans is quoted by statements marked with asterisks
I was too dumb to figure out 'quoting'..sorry for any confusion
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Plankwell was 500 years before the Rebellion. And he was responsible for the start of the Civil War in the 600s.
Underestimate how? The Imperium still won and taking anyone's homeworld is a b*itch.
Well it's not a bad way to start a war is it? And I think given the speed of communication, war in the 57th century will tend to come on suddenly unless you're nose-to-nose to begin with. (Which isn't an optimal starting point in a war).
Dulinor - Only GT saw it coming but they that LKW as HeadOfIntelligence
IMO, the precarious political nature of the Imperium in 1116 was a McGuffin to justify a change in the OTU. By the time MT came along, Traveller had long ago given up on the decaying empire/barbarians at the gates tone of the earliest products and had settled in to being a very stable setting. (Hence the complaints that the OTU was not dynamic enough).
This has already been addressed.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Last time I looked taking your fleet to the capital without orders, demanding a meeting with the Empress and shooting her IS a rebellion. I was quite aware (as I assume most here are) when Plankwell usurped power
They started the war assuming they would do a quick win and take back ALL of Sollie space. Than they barely one and very quickly offered a truce.
And the same speed limit applies to the invading force. So any capabel intelligence service (even more one with a Techlevel-Benefit) should be abel to alert it's own size to troop build-ups. When the term surprise is used, this did IMHO NOT happen
Your interpretation (and that of some others). For me the Canon-Variant has always been "Rotten to the Core and run by an Impie with lack of ground contact" as described in MT and TNE. (As stated, more modern canon overwrites older stuff)
Different Organisation. Aside from that it was still a bunch of terrorists taking over ships in a DEPOT! system. That is like the RAF breaking into a Reforger Camp and making of with an M1 or two.
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