Fleet Structures & funding

[Hal]

This thread is an off-shoot of another in LONE STAR that I thought really belonged here more than it belonged anywhere else. The thread's title was "10+ Questions You Would Ask MWM" of which I responded with the question about fleet structures, funding, and command structure.

It is one thing to say

This reserve fleet is typically made up of older ships that are not modern enough for front line service, but are still fully functional. Naval reservists crew and man these ships, often taking part in exercises organized by the main fleets.

Yet another thing to detail how it is done. How are reservist personnel different than full time naval personnel?

From what I've read over the years about fleets within the Imperium, the Imperial Navy fleets are kept together for defense of th realm against external enemies. They are not broken up such that they pursue anti-piracy missions and so forth - this being the domain of other fleets. It would be one thing to state in no uncertain terms that the navy follows a two tier task assignment system where smaller ships and lesser squadrons handle internal security while larger ships and fleets are kept together to handle any external threats. This would have been logical and it would have been easily implemented. So what exactly is the purpose of the Subsector Navy? You do not need to break up a command structure into two separate commands to handle internal and external defense tasks - that is something that can be done within ONE Navy in a way that does not require reservists nor does it require that large numbers of ships are obsolete (numbers as evidenced in Fifth Frontier War boardgame are such that the "reserve" fleets are almost as numerous as regular fleets!).

Oddly enough, when looking at character generation in HIGH GUARD for the differences between Imperial Navy, subsector Navy, and planetary Navy personnel skills - I find that there is but ONE difference. Technical Services. If you look at the skills provided for in Technical Services, they are:
Electronic, Computer, Gravitics, and Jack of All Trades. I've noted that there isn't any skill in Technical that you can't get anywhere else for "normal" planetary Navy or subsector Navy with perhaps the exception of gravitics and/or Jack of all trades (they are available, but only to higher ranking NCO's or officers or those who get sent to engineering school). In all, there doesn't seem to be any difference between the skill sets for planetary/subsector/Imperial naval personnel. This to me makes High Guard less then helpful when it comes to determining what is so different between subsector fleets and full imperial naval fleets

The introduction to High Guard talks about a specific three tiered naval system to handle the needs of the Imperium. Why THREE ? Why not just say TWO and be done with it? As I see it now - an Imperial Navy along with a "reserve" of the Imperial Navy really implies only a two tier system. The Reserve fleet is at all time - a resource of the Imperial Navy. They are funded by the Imperial Navy's budget and the reserve personnel are called up into the Imperial naval fleet command structure. But even this is not entirely true, as these "colonial" fleets are maintained as "separate but equal" fleets. Instead of having a 214th reserve fleet that get integrated and dispersed amongst the 214th Main fleet, they are kept as a fleet in and of themselves... MESSY!

Thoughts, comments, etc?

For now, IMTU, I've resorted to using three government levels:

Imperial Government: this is the Emperor and his loyal minions along with the Major nobles of the Imperium.
Medieval Analogy: King of England.
Modern Analogy: Federal Government

Subsector Government: This is the Sector Duke and his subsector Dukes who carry out the Emperor's wishes. Being a "localized" Imperial Government section, they carry out the day to day affairs affecting the sector itself. Medieval Analogy: Dukedom or County of England
Modern Analogy: State Government

Planetary Government: Each world contains a sovereign government that has priveledges and responsibilities spelled out in that world's treaty with the Iridium throne. They provide the bulk of the governmental services and likewise take the bulk of the taxes levied upon the planet's citizens. They are responsible for the collection of the Imperial Taxes owed to the Iridium throne, but they give it to the agents of the Iridium throne rather than the throne itself.
Medieval Analogy: Barony or personal fiefs of medieval knights.
Modern Analogy: Local Government

IMTU: The Imperial Navy is fully distinct from the Subsector Navy which is fully distinct from planetary Navies. The Imperium recognizes the rights of Planetary Governments to field navies (and/or militaries) capable of traversing interstellar space (or else you'd have colonial navies sitting at their system of origin never allowed to jump out of their star system!). The Imperial Navy does not have the right to task subsector naval units to do things it wants done, for they are outside its chain of command and area of operations. Imperial units may not be commanded or tasked by subsector admirals because the subsector admirals fall outside the chain of command of the Imperial navy - except under one important proviso. I treat this as a treaty obligation in the case of planetary systems who have raised "colonial forces" for prestige purposes along with a built in governmental restriction of "in time of war, render any assistance required and upon activation into the Imperial Navy, integrate one's navy into the current Imperial Naval command structure".

This way, entire fleets may not be commandeered by the Imperial Navy in times of peace. This way, when a fleet is activated and drawn into the Imperial naval command structure - it is drawn in as a full unit rather than absorbed piecemeal into the actual active Imperial Navy squadron structures. Last but not least - it offers a political balance to the Imperial navy should it be required. Remember, not one, but TWO naval admirals have taken a fleet from the spinward marches and "marched" on the capital with the objective of seizing the Iridium thrown (or at least ultimately sitting on it in the case of the second admiral). Wouldn't YOU want to insure that no single admiral can do the same again without a counterbalance and/or it being highly difficult to assay without full popular support of the local subsector Dukes/Admirals?

All in all, instinctively, I see it as highly unlikely we will see TL 10 Warships serving side by side in the same space as TL 15 warships if both the Imperial navy and subsector Navy are funded by the same funding sorce and have the same command structure. On the other hand, if we have the Imperial Navy with one funding system, the subsector with another funding system, and planetary navies with yet another - then I can see a polyglot of various tech level warships serving near each other in space.

Imperial ships: built at TL 15 Depot systems
Subsector Ships: built at the highest TL sub-sector shipyards they have
Planetary ships: built at the planet's tech level or purchased outside of it

 

[flykiller]

Thoughts, comments, etc?

it was all meant to be a colorful backdrop for the adventures of a small band of travellers, not a high-fidelity simulation of an interstellar empire.

if you want a simulation then you'll have to start with assumptions about exactly what the Imperium is, exactly who and what the nobility are, and exactly how they get their funding. once you set that into place then fleets and their organization follow fairly easily.

 

[PBI]

It all depends on whether or not you follow a feudal or modern command structure, Hal. The three-tiered system as mentioned in HG is definitely more a nod to a less-centralized state, whereas a two-tiered system would be in line with modern military planning.

 

[mike wightman]

In his essay entitled "Battlefleets of the Marches", in JTAS #9, MWM did not use the term subsector navy.
Colonial and Regular are the terms used to describe the fleets of the Spinward Marches, with Colonial forces being locally raised at the planetary level.

The way I reconcile this with the three tiered structure in High Guard is for planetary navies to consist of SDBs and Monitors only, the Colonial fleets are what High Guard refers to as subsector navies, and then comes the regular Imperial Navy.

IMHO subsector fleets are under the direction of the subsector Duke, but in times of emergency or war can be "drafted" into the Imperial Navy command structure.

Notice that in FFW all of the initial Colonial squadrons are named, but the reinforcements (Colonial Reserves) are numbered.
I've always taken this to mean that their Colonial planetary names have been replaced with IN fleet numbers during activation and muster.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by PBI:
It all depends on whether or not you follow a feudal or modern command structure, Hal. The three-tiered system as mentioned in HG is definitely more a nod to a less-centralized state, whereas a two-tiered system would be in line with modern military planning.

Actually US Military is on a three tiered system. There is Active Duty, the full time Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines. The Reserves, which belong to the federal government but are primarily Cadre Units, where a few individuals are full time but the majority are part time, "Citizen Soldiers." And the National Guard, again Cadre Units, which can be "Federalized" or called into Active duty by the Federal Government but until or unless that happens belongs to the individual states and answers to the Govenor of that state. (And is subject to call up by the state in addition to being Federalized.) The National Guard is jointly funded by the Federal Government and the State Government.

So it doesn't require a loose Government to have a three tiered system, though the old SOviet Union had a two tier system. (Unless you want to count the Border Guard and National Police force as a third tier. (They belonged to the KGB not the Military though they were essentially trained and equipped to military standards.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

I like the three tiered system and apply it to Traveller IMTU as follows. Tier 1.
The Imperial Navy, In Each Sector reports to the Grand Admiral of the Sector. Comprised of, on average, one Squadron of Capital Ships per Naval Base. (Though some bases will have more some won't be assigned as a Homeport for a Squadron of Capital Ships.) Crurons of this nature will patrol, perform anti-piracy duties, show the flag, train, interdict Red Zones, explore, support Marine deployments, Disaster relief, etc. Generally they will be deployed as divisions of 2 ships or even individual ships with escorts. Batrons, approximately 1 in 4 squadrons, will be kept together, generally deploying together, primarily for training, or a massive show of force. The Batrons are the Sector's immediate reserve and primary combat power. The Counter Attack force, the Delay force in a major conflict while the reserves are mobilized and while reinforcements are rushed to the front, and the Crurons are recalled and concentrated.

Tier 2 is the Imperial Naval Reserve. These are the older but still servicable ships, manned by part time crews which occasionally train. These ships form a second line of ships to help fill the gaps in a major conflict. Again approximately 1 Squadron of Capital ships per Naval base. (And the same Naval bases as the full time squadrons so they can benefit from training with full time squadrons. They answer to a Reserve Grand Admiral for each Sector, who will generally be junior to the Regular Grand Admiral of the Sector and when activated answers to that Admiral.

Tier 3 is the Colonial Fleets. These are the responsibility of the local planets, cluster governments, subsector governments, etc. These can be part time or full time, generally full time. They are responsible for local defense, protecting the system's interests. (Escorting local goods and merchants, patroling the space lanes in the general vicinity, hunting down pirates in their vicinity, etc. They do coordinate with the Imperial Navy and are subject to call up in Situations of Clear and Present Danger to the Imperium. In general they are the System Defense Boats, Customs Patrols, Search and Rescue Craft, etc. They are funded by both the local government and the Imperium. Generally in the smaller tonnages, without more than a handful of Capital Ship Squadrons in all the Colonial Fleets of a Sector combined.

IN this there will be exceptions, for example Subsector Capitals will tend to have 4-6 Active Capital Ship Squadrons and a similar number of Reserve squadrons calling that system their Home Port. Those systems are also likely to boast a fairly robust and large Colonial fleet. (Where the few Colonial Batrons and CruRons actually exist.)

Now I do tend to use a variation of TCS for Naval budgets and IMTU Navies tend to be bigger than what I have heard about what in in things like FFW. But remember that in this case both sides get bigger Naval budgets so that tends to even out in the wash. Besides, with communication lags measured in weeks and the requirement to be able to actually be capable of mounting a defense Navies are going to have to be big just to handle operational realities of an area the size of a Sector.

 

[PBI]

Bhoins, never said that a three-tiered system required a less-centralized state, I merely said that as stated in HG, it was a nod toward feudalism.

I, too, like using a 3-tier system in Traveller, but I base mine on Imperial, Provincial (subsector) and Planetary. The Imperial forces are the primary offensive forces and act as a defensive reserve, whereas the Provincial and Planetary are the primary defensive forces, with an in extremis reserve role on offence.

Sometimes I go with a 2-tier, however, usually depending on how much I feel up to micromanaging

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Bhoins:


Tier 2 is the Imperial Naval Reserve. These are the older but still servicable ships, manned by part time crews which occasionally train. These ships form a second line of ships to help fill the gaps in a major conflict. Again approximately 1 Squadron of Capital ships per Naval base. (And the same Naval bases as the full time squadrons so they can benefit from training with full time squadrons. They answer to a Reserve Grand Admiral for each Sector, who will generally be junior to the Regular Grand Admiral of the Sector and when activated answers to that Admiral.

Since you've stated this as being how things are in your traveller universe can you tell me how a reserve unit functions? Lets say you have a BatRon with 4 capital ships in it. First, how does a person qualify as a reservist in your universe. Next, how are they scheduled to keep that BatRon functioning, and finally - how do you transfer Reserve crew A for Reserve Crew B? If they are reservists - doesn't that limit their area of operations as you need to transport your rservists to where they can resume their lives - no? If their time of operations responsibilities are measured in 6 month times every two years for example - might not the issue of transport time to meet the ship count against their "reserve" time?

So how does the reservist serve his time and meet his obligations?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Hal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:


Tier 2 is the Imperial Naval Reserve. These are the older but still servicable ships, manned by part time crews which occasionally train. These ships form a second line of ships to help fill the gaps in a major conflict. Again approximately 1 Squadron of Capital ships per Naval base. (And the same Naval bases as the full time squadrons so they can benefit from training with full time squadrons. They answer to a Reserve Grand Admiral for each Sector, who will generally be junior to the Regular Grand Admiral of the Sector and when activated answers to that Admiral.

Since you've stated this as being how things are in your traveller universe can you tell me how a reserve unit functions? Lets say you have a BatRon with 4 capital ships in it. First, how does a person qualify as a reservist in your universe. Next, how are they scheduled to keep that BatRon functioning, and finally - how do you transfer Reserve crew A for Reserve Crew B? If they are reservists - doesn't that limit their area of operations as you need to transport your rservists to where they can resume their lives - no? If their time of operations responsibilities are measured in 6 month times every two years for example - might not the issue of transport time to meet the ship count against their "reserve" time?

So how does the reservist serve his time and meet his obligations? </font>[/QUOTE]IMTU Reservists can either be individuals that have retired/mustered out or sign up as reservists in the first place. They generally live on the planet where the unit is based so travel time is not calculated in the equation. I never went into the details as to how often they train. (1 weekend a month might work but 2 weeks active training a year is a bit light, perhaps 4-5 weeks a year.)

It is not a job I will allow Player Characters to have because they don't sit still long enough,

however it does let you have additional fleet elements in times of war or crisis. The fleet is maintained as part of the contract with the yard at the Naval base or part of the Naval Bases routine activities, depending on how that works in YTU. (IMTU the Navy maintains its own maintenance facilities as part of the Navy base at each naval base.) Training is scheduled in advance so the Active component can plan ahead to train with the reserve unit. Simulated wargames etc.

Edit: I missed part of the question.

The Reserve BatRon sits at the Naval Base for most of the year. 1 weekend each month its reserve crew comes aboard, and conducts training. For (for example 5 weeks in the Summer) its annual training the crew for the Batron comes aboard and they conduct a training cruise. For example Jump conduct exercises, gunnery drills, simulate damage control, wilderness refueling, etc., jump, simulate a battle, Jump back home.

This further extends the life of the older ships because they are not operating full time.

 

[BetterThanLife]

One other thought that just occurred to me, Reserve units are notoriously undermanned, IRL, aside from having a difficult time maintaining full strength, training conflicts, service schools, etc will eat manpower available for crewing the ship. So perhaps each Reserve unit should have full strength manning of 120% of that required to man the ships. That way they are more likely to sail with full crews.

The same problem will happen with manning in active duty Naval vessels. Most canon Naval vessels don't take that into account. The crew is what the crew requirements in the rules has, there isn't a surplus and most don't have room for passengers. (Though some have a Frozen watch that could help with the shortfall.) IRL Naval Vessels don't operate with minimum crews, for several reasons, this being one reason, battle damage being another. Hmmmmm! Now I have to think about something else.

Thanks.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by PBI:
Bhoins, never said that a three-tiered system required a less-centralized state, I merely said that as stated in HG, it was a nod toward feudalism.

I, too, like using a 3-tier system in Traveller, but I base mine on Imperial, Provincial (subsector) and Planetary. The Imperial forces are the primary offensive forces and act as a defensive reserve, whereas the Provincial and Planetary are the primary defensive forces, with an in extremis reserve role on offence.

Sometimes I go with a 2-tier, however, usually depending on how much I feel up to micromanaging

Originally posted by PBI:
It all depends on whether or not you follow a feudal or modern command structure, Hal. The three-tiered system as mentioned in HG is definitely more a nod to a less-centralized state, whereas a two-tiered system would be in line with modern military planning.

OK I apparently misunderstood. My comments were not meant as a criticism, mearly as an observation that the three tier system in HG has a parallel in long standing US Military doctrine.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Hal:
From what I've read over the years about fleets within the Imperium, the Imperial Navy fleets are kept together for defense of th realm against external enemies. They are not broken up such that they pursue anti-piracy missions and so forth - this being the domain of other fleets.

I don't think I've ever seen that subject mentioned one way or another. The closest I can think of is a remark in Fighting Ships about the squadron of Tigresses being split up into two-Tigress units and stationed in separate systems during peacetime.

So what exactly is the purpose of the Subsector Navy? You do not need to break up a command structure into two separate commands to handle internal and external defense tasks - that is something that can be done within ONE Navy in a way that does not require reservists nor does it require that large numbers of ships are obsolete (numbers as evidenced in Fifth Frontier War boardgame are such that the "reserve" fleets are almost as numerous as regular fleets!).

The introduction to High Guard talks about a specific three tiered naval system to handle the needs of the Imperium. Why THREE ? Why not just say TWO and be done with it?

There are three tiers because there are three levels of states that fund the navies: The Imperium, the duchies, and the systems. The Imperium funds the Imperial Navy, each duchy funds a duchy (i.e. subsector) navy, and those systems that can afford it (and isn't specifically barred by Imperial edict from doing so) funds a system navy (system defense force).

As I see it now - an Imperial Navy along with a "reserve" of the Imperial Navy really implies only a two tier system. The Reserve fleet is at all time - a resource of the Imperial Navy. They are funded by the Imperial Navy's budget and the reserve personnel are called up into the Imperial naval fleet command structure.

I agree completely with you. You have to bear in mind that the evidence we have was written by two different 'teams' of authors, which has contributed considerably to the confusion. The main problem is that CT doesn't mention reserve fleets and MT doeesn't mention subsector navies. Worse, every mention of subsector navies from CT was replaced by a reference to reserve fleets in MT.

The way I reconcile this discrepancy is to merge the two sets of information and say that we have an Imperial Navy that includes reserve fleets and duchy (subsector) navies too.

Side note on terminology: IMO 'subsector navy' is used synonymously with 'duchy navy' even though a few duchies cover more than one subsector. This is because 90% or more of all acses a subsector is a duchy is a subsector.

Another side note on terminology: IMO 'colonial' is a term that is applied to all ships that are organized on a local level. It thus applies both to Imperial Navy reserve fleets and to duchy and planetary navies.


Hans

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
From what I've read over the years about fleets within the Imperium, the Imperial Navy fleets are kept together for defense of th realm against external enemies. They are not broken up such that they pursue anti-piracy missions and so forth - this being the domain of other fleets.

I don't think I've ever seen that subject mentioned one way or another. The closest I can think of is a remark in Fighting Ships about the squadron of Tigresses being split up into two-Tigress units and stationed in separate systems during peacetime.

So what exactly is the purpose of the Subsector Navy? You do not need to break up a command structure into two separate commands to handle internal and external defense tasks - that is something that can be done within ONE Navy in a way that does not require reservists nor does it require that large numbers of ships are obsolete (numbers as evidenced in Fifth Frontier War boardgame are such that the "reserve" fleets are almost as numerous as regular fleets!).

The introduction to High Guard talks about a specific three tiered naval system to handle the needs of the Imperium. Why THREE ? Why not just say TWO and be done with it?

There are three tiers because there are three levels of states that fund the navies: The Imperium, the duchies, and the systems. The Imperium funds the Imperial Navy, each duchy funds a duchy (i.e. subsector) navy, and those systems that can afford it (and isn't specifically barred by Imperial edict from doing so) funds a system navy (system defense force).

As I see it now - an Imperial Navy along with a "reserve" of the Imperial Navy really implies only a two tier system. The Reserve fleet is at all time - a resource of the Imperial Navy. They are funded by the Imperial Navy's budget and the reserve personnel are called up into the Imperial naval fleet command structure.

I agree completely with you. You have to bear in mind that the evidence we have was written by two different 'teams' of authors, which has contributed considerably to the confusion. The main problem is that CT doesn't mention reserve fleets and MT doeesn't mention subsector navies. Worse, every mention of subsector navies from CT was replaced by a reference to reserve fleets in MT.

The way I reconcile this discrepancy is to merge the two sets of information and say that we have an Imperial Navy that includes reserve fleets and duchy (subsector) navies too.

Side note on terminology: IMO 'subsector navy' is used synonymously with 'duchy navy' even though a few duchies cover more than one subsector. This is because 90% or more of all acses a subsector is a duchy is a subsector.

Another side note on terminology: IMO 'colonial' is a term that is applied to all ships that are organized on a local level. It thus applies both to Imperial Navy reserve fleets and to duchy and planetary navies.


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]I always placed the Subsector/Duchy Navies as part of the Colonial/Planetary fleets. Since my Reserve fleets were under direct Imperial Control. The Subsector/Duchy Navies are under Local control but subject to call up. Further that gives a wide variance in terms of Local Navies depending on the wishes and missions of that Duchy, and the direction of the Subsector Duke. (FOr example the Glisten Subsector Navy would have more Capital Ships, and more Starships for things like Anti-Piracy Patrols, Showing the Flag, etc because they are on the border and are responsible for the integration of Pax Rulin and DIstrict 268. As opposed to Mora, which is surronded by Imperial Subsectors so wouldn't need as big a Subsector Navy from a practical standpoint but might want a big one from a prestige standpoint. (So it would be more SDBs and Monitors to monitor the larger traffic flow.)

But since, IMTU the Subsector Navy is the responsibility of the Subsector Duke, and his staff but since it is under local control it is lumped in with the Colonial Naval Forces of the Sector. The reserve Naval elements are a portion of the Imperial Navy so represent a seperate entity and not under local control.

 

[aramis]

Bhoins: Actually, the US has a 3 tier mandated system, with a 4th tier in several states: The state militias. THe states are allowed armed bodies of troops outside the NG&R system, which can not be federalized (Ok, not automatically). Very few maintain this, and some make a blanket statement about the draftability of civilians of certain ages into the state militia upon the governor's order.

I see the planetary navies in this light. Some will be "One week per season", others full time (kind of a sherrif's parrallel), and still others "All locally registered ships". Unlikely to be "imperialized" with a variety of structures. And, based upon the TCS numbers, the colonial fleets of some of the larger worlds are merely a large chunk, so there are probably funds left over for a planetary fleet.

The Reserve fleets are, according to MT sources, organized by subsector; they are the subsector navy, albeit not always the colonial squadrons. IMO, probably a mix of decent coonial units, and second rate colonial and reserve-assigned ships. I assume the Reserve flee HQ is full-time and mixed IN and SSN personnel. The Subsector duke gets to use them unless the sector duke or grand admiral yanks them out for some other duty.

That leaves the Imperial Navy. Canonically, it's operationally organized to the sector level, with numbered fleets per subsector. There is oversight at the domain level... and we know that Norris strengthens the domain level when he takes over as Archduke.

Now, the advantage of the "All locally registered ships" mode is that it means you can grab your merchant fleet should you have to. The problem is, much of that fleet won't be in system at a given time. (I once did this to a PC group. No reg nor annual maintenance fees! just have to serve a week a year on customs detail; the following week we'll do the maintenance." Their passenger staterooms became loaded with local troopies for boarding and inspections... great fun.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Aramis,
Well I wasn't going to include the Texas Rangers (The Texas Rangers being the one example most people have heard of that actually uses the State Militia not subject to call up by the Federal Governemnt clause.) or Local Law enforcement. Nor was I going to count the Treasury Department, which can put an impressive array of hardware in the field. (The only thing that Treasury lacks is Tanks and APCs, though they do have armored vehicles they aren't full up military grade APCs.) But I suppose we can call the Border Guards, ATF and the Coast Guard another tier if you really want to. Then there is the CIA and FBI. Both of which can and have supplied Armed Cadres around the world. But specific military forces, especially those that have force projection capability, is pretty much limited to the levels I listed.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Actually, Virginia has a military force separate from the NG! It is called the Virginia Defense Force, and is an actual state militia. It actually coordinates with DoD for exercises, etc.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Aramis,
The modern equivalents (in the US) to what you have contemplated WRT the merchants being grabbed is the Merchant Marine and the Civil Reserve Air Fleet. The Merchant Marine don't necessarily get grabbed for duty (though my wife has an uncle that got shot at frequently in the waters off Vietnam, and was never in the military). The air carriers that participate in CRAF get a small subsidy each year, so that when the US absolutely needs extra airlift capacity overnight, it is readily available. (No outsize cargo capability, though - C5/C17.)

 

[PBI]

It's not so much how many tiers there are, but where the funding comes from and the authority of the various government levels over the respective tiers.

Using HG as a base, my 3-tier Trav navies are seperately funded, but I have the Imperial level forces being able to command any and all forces at subsector and below, whereas the subsector forces commond only those forces, planetary and subsector, within their home subsector. Planetary navies command themselves only.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Fine. If we're going to completely repeat the discussions of Sector, Subsector, Planetary navies, then I shall certainly put my own repetition in place.


SECTOR NAVY

The regular Imperial Navy. Paid for by Imperial level funds, and possibly Sector level funds as well. Commanded by the Sector Duke (i.e. role of the President of the US over the military) and the Sector Admiral (Senior Military Office with chief of staff, staff, and Fleet Admirals). Grand Admirals only appear at this level if they have been elevate to that Rank by the Emperor and assigned to work in that region. The forces of the Sector Navies are composed of the BatRons of the Imperium (jump battleships and battleriders w/tenders). There are also carriers (with datalinked massed fighter squadrons), cruisers, and destroyers/escorts; plus support in the form of scouts, tankers, re-supply transports, couriers, hospital ships, and troop ships. All these operate in support of the BatRons. BatRons are massed at strategic reserve points so they can be called to battle wherever they are needed.

IMTU Notes: There are a large group of BatRons sitting at Jewell, standing forward guard against direct invasion. Plus sector reserves at Rhylanor and Mora, and Domain reserves at the Depot in the Deneb Sector, and an even larger major-threat-only emergency reserve at Corridor/Depot. Important or troubled Subsectors may also have Task Forces deployed to them, but that is a variable situation. I usually posit that along the entire length of the Vargr Coreward Border, the Imperium deploys BatRons and CruRons (limited numbers of them) from Depot/Deneb and Depot/Corridor to jump from system to system along the border (ostensibly on training, but really showing the Imperial Flag to deter Vargr general invasion).


SUBSECTOR NAVY

These are what are frequently referred to as Colonial Navies. Raised and paid for by the Subsector Budget controlled by the Subsector Duke. They are under the command of the Subsector Duke the same way the Sector Navy is under the command of the Sector Duke. The Subsector Duke appoints and controls the development of the Subsector Navy's admiralty, usually acquiring admirals from the pool of officers available within the Subsector Navy itself, however, when suitably skilled candidates are not available, the IN itself will detach a Fleet Admiral (and possible more officers, as well, if necessary) to serve as commander (for as long as the Subsector Duke wishes it; a request handled through the Sector Duke's and Subsector Duke's Offices). The Subsector Navy is, of course, under the overarching direction of general orders given by the Sector Duke (who may, of course, order his subordinate Subsector Dukes to use their Subsector Navies to complete whatever specific tasks are necessary).

Also IMTU, Subsector forces are limited to Heavy Cruisers and less (100,000 dTons). In this way, it makes it quite difficult for Subsector Navy forces to rebel . . . the Sector Navy's capital ships are too much for them.

The role of the SN is: general defense, anti-piracy, anti-raider, early warning, customs assistance (when necessary), and providing Imperial presence dispersed in all (or almost all) systems. The Sector Navy and its critical BatRons, for the most part, must remain massed in strategic locations.

Technically, the Subsector Navy is a part of the "Imperial Navy" as much as the actual Sector Navy (they are paid for through the same MoT offices, at the same salary levels, and get the same pensions), but there is substantial rivalry between the two levels of forces, which are almost never thought of as the same by anyone except legal experts. The Sector Navy considers itself the real Imperial Navy, and looks down on the Subsector Navies. The Subsector Navies tend to think of the Sector Navy as elitist snobs who rarely get their hands dirty, and who wouldn't know how to blast their way out of a wet paper bag with a fusion bay.


PLANETARY NAVY

These are local forces raised by the local planetary government. They are limited in jurisdiction to their planet's 100 diameter limit, outside of that, the IN (Sector and Subsector) rule the space lanes. Some planetary governments have acquired permission to patrol their entire starsystem (requires approval from the Marquis of the world, (the County level doesn't exist as such IMTU; it becomes the subsector instead), the Subsector Duke, and the Sector Duke. Typically these are wealthier worlds, well able to afford their own defense.

The commanding admiralty, staff, and sailors are almost invariably local. Some PNs have a tiny fraction of outsider officers; and some PNs may call on the Sector or Subsector Navies for cadre officers to bolster training capability. A few PNs are know to use "foreign legion" type arrangements, where a large fraction of the force is non-local, though this is rare.

The Marquis or Baron of the world will often attempt to maintain a close relationship with the Planetary Navy, as there are military interface considerations with the Sector and Subsector Navy's, as well as coordination with any militarized vessels functioning as a part of the noble's Huscarles.

Vessels of the PN may not be jump capable without approval (requires an approval from the Sector Duke for each separate vessel). They may not have battlerider/tender groups (without a per tender vessel approval). This restricts them to SDBs and Monitors in most cases. Monitors are also size-restricted to up to 100,000 dTons. This keeps wealthy planets from gobbling up nearby worlds (most of the time), or even threatening the Sector Navy.


REBELLION ERA IN ORGANIZATION

I realize this organizational system was all switched around in MT, but I ignore that reorganization entirely.

 

[mike wightman]

Getting back to funding issues, where can the money come from for these ships?

Planetary Navy - planetary taxes;

Subsector/Colonial Navy - planetary/Duchy taxes;

Imperial Navy - Imperial trade taffifs and taxation, of member worlds and trade.

Some thoughts/questions.

Is there a Duchy tax, or do Dukes get their money from personal holdings or Imperial stipend?

How are the Megacorporations taxed - do they maintain their own navies?

Can wealthy individuals build their own navy? [this last one depends on the naval paradigms at play in the TU - it would be more possible in the early Traveller small ship universe than in the later large ship munchkinfest]