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Food aboard ship

Enoki

SOC-14 1K
I have also been giving this some thought. Another mundane topic but one that would be important to the crew in real life.

Anyway, a typical ship is going to have to stock a pretty substancial amount of meals aboard for a typical jump cycle, if not more. How often replenishment would occur would I think depend on where you jump into... what system that is.

On at least human manned ships I would think the norm would be to stock meals similar to airline food or military MREs where all you do is heat and serve. These might be a bit more bulk items like large trays that serve 10, 20 or more people with several used each containing one meal component. Some fresh food would likely be available too along with refrigerated goods.

But, if you had to stock say, 30 days worth of food aboard this could quickly amount to literally thousands of meals even on a relatively small ship. For example a small freighter or trader with say, a crew of 5 and 20 passengers would require 75 meals per day (assuming 3 each) or 2250 for 30 days, maybe a bit more for waste and such. 2300 "MRE's" takes up a bit of space and would cost a fair amount of money. Higher quality food would raise the price too.

Then there is the problem of replenishing the supply. This likely would be no problem at an A or B starport, maybe even a C. But tech level would play a role too. A low tech world probably won't have the "MRE" available. They might have canned and jarred items, some preserved things but, much of what would be available would be simple bulk fresh food items. These could take up more space and would take greater skill (steward skill levels or equivalent) to prepare than something you simply heat and serve.
So, you could find yourself having food issues jumping into say a tech level 4 would with a class D or E starport.
The other thing would be the population present. Jumping into a world with just thousands of people might result in you finding there isn't enough food on the market available period to meet your bulk requirements for another jump.

Now, on larger ships there might be gardens, livestock pens, etc., available for producing some food on board. I doubt some how that with the general tech levels as given in Traveller that something like Star Trek's replicator is available nor would there be much you could practically do to reprocess waste into food.

Then there are the other races: Vagar, Aslan, etc. Their food needs would change the dynamic considerably. Do these prefer fresh food, particularly meat? The food choices might also dictate how much (more or less meals per day, calorie intake etc., ) food had to be carried.

Lastly, you have to consider the cost. A player operating a freigher or passenger ship would have to consider what the cost of food for the crew and passengers would be. Obviously, a high passage passenger would expect better than a mid passage one would. The crew might not accept minimal quality food either particularly if it were the norm.

Some things to think about
 
An endless food supply...

I'm only mentioning this because I came across it a couple of days ago. Not exactly appetizing, but you might want to wait before declaring the waste-into-food idea dead....

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/06/artificial-meat-made-from-poop.php

There was also a thread a while ago about food aboard a troop transport.

Relevant data (via Aramis)
Man-Days per DTon and given in Best of JTAS 1, p30: 2000 Person-Days per DTon, KCr50 per DTon. that's 6.75L per man-day; lists as "Food and consumables."

FF&S2 also has stats; I don't have mine accessible.

(via my research at the time)
My research indicates an MRE takes up about 120 cubic inches, or .001982 cubic meters, or 7000 per dton (3 meals per day, about 2333 man-days). This comes pretty close to the numbers given in GT: Interstellar Wars (1 dton, 2000 man-days, 12 tons weight). That's the only place I recall seeing it mentioned off the top of my head.

So, 1 dton of cargo will supply your troops for 4 days and change, or 7 dtons per month. That's just food, though, so I'd probably double that to account for medical supplies, toilet paper, replacement parts, etc. So 7x2x3= about 42 dtons for 90 days.

EDIT: Ah, GT: Starships uses the same number, but also notes you can carry 1000 man-days of fresh food instead of 2000 man-days of preserved.

Sooo, with those numbers in mind, a trader with a complement of 25 requires about a dton per month if using preserved food, and 2 dtons per month for fresh/refrigerated...somewhat less if you're not above...recycling.:eek:o:
 
IMTU ships, or at least the larger military ships, cannot carry enough fresh food for their crews for extended periods of time. Thus organic matter aboard ship is recycled as food via algae vats. Shaped into cubes, flat squares, or 'macaroni', these mixes of protein, carbohydrates, sugars, and fats, supplement fresh food. Food cubes cannot replace fresh food entirely as they often lack many vitamins and other nutrients but they can bulk out fresh food reducing the amount needed to be carried.

As for 'fresh food' I was struck by a scene in the film Das Boot: The submarine was resupplied mid-mission and for awhile the central passageway (which was narrow to begin with) was jammed by all manner of food stuffs. So I would think it not uncommon for ships replenishing in the wild (so to speak) taking on an assortment of local foodstuffs and other exotica. And for a time the otherwise Spartan corridors may be likewise lined with low tech crates of alleged food.

When replenishing at regular stops there would be warehoused supplies of standardised MREs. But in other cases, especially in frontier sectors, naval crewmembers will often face a dining dilemma of choosing between bad but known food cubes or random mystery food. :devil:
 
First, MRE's are mostly packaging. I would imagine something more akin to airline food/TV dinner trays; planning for 1 kg/person/day, with roughly 1000/m^3. For a Type S, assuming double occupancy (a generous assumption!), the 3 dtons of cargo would hold 1750 days worth of rations.

This is, of course, an extreme example; for anything over a couple of jumps, a large amount of space would be consumed by sundries, entertainment, and the like. Even if we assume the food bulks out at 2 liters/person/day, then the 28 liters for a jump would comfortably fit in a small cabinet in the stateroom. Water, of course, would be extra, but is provided/recycled through life support. Even a compliment of 25 would take up less than a third of a cubic meter for a 14 day jump cycle. It could be in the stateroom, or commons. IMTU, the lines typically have a Middle passenger "order" their food on checking in, and it is sent to their stateroom. Free Traders are more likely to have a bit more than is necessary, and it is first-come, first-served.

These are, of course, minimum figures; there would likely be ample storage space for comfort food items. About 4 m^3 of storage in cabinets are the passengers commons would probably be more than ample for a Free Trader to run between A & B ports without scrimping.

Some assumptions are that food will be packaged/prepared analogously to the new 1 cup coffee makers: the preparation involves automated reading of the package, heating and hydration. The disposable packaging would probably be minimal foil, fitted into a ceramic tray for dining; a "dishwasher" unit cleans/compacts the foil, which cleaning the ceramic trays and silverware. Middle passengers essentially do this themselves; High passengers have proper china and fresh food for chrome.

My read, anyway.
 
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IMTU, the MFI is the model, not its cousin, the MRE.

A meal in a bag, with each item in a bag itself, heat-n-eat, shelf (and vacuum) stable while sealed. Nothing dehydrated save beverage powders.

Here's some info on current milspec ratons: http://www.qmfound.com/operational_rations_current_future_1963.htm

The old MRE and MFI have been replaced with MCE and FPIFI... but the general pattern is the same.
 
one thing, though: while living on combat rations for a few days to a few weeks is ok, trying to live on them for extended periods of time is very draining to morale. starship pursars would try and get fresh, intresting food a pretty much every stop in order to strech the compo rations and make life that little bit more bearable. navy shipboard food is generally as fresh as they can make it.

trust me, after a week on boil in a bag food, the first thing a soldier does when he gets back to civilisation is head for the local Macdonalds. :D
 
Calculating from scratch (and maybe British Fridges are smaller than American ones), my Fridge-Freezer is 0.5x0.5x0.8 x2 = 0.4m^3 Let's call it 0.5m^3 to allow for some cupboard space and a bread bin.

That keeps two of us in home-cooked food for a week - the frozen food probably lasts up to a month. So by that reckoning (and especially considering the improved surface area/volume ratio of walk-in freezers) each dT of food storage should supply 56 people with real meals for a week.
I can't see that creating many problems aboard ship.
As for re-supply, Most TUs have habitable planets with edible food everywhere - extic atmospheres are a rarity. Even if food production (farming) is low TL, packaging and storage is likely to use high tech imports, so even a frontier starport should be able to supply frozen food to visiting starships.
On the whole, I don't see food as a problem. In MTU, crew and passengers eat heratily and well - unless something goes wrong... :devil:
 
I think most Traveller ships whould have refrigerators to keep a sizable amount of food and so the problem may not be as great as it may seem.

After all, today's subs (AFAIK) have them and keep their crews well fed for weeks long patrols (OK, I know, not at the cuisine level a High Passenger may ask for).

Also someone has pointed de difficulty that obtaining food in a low TL planet may have. We must remeber most low TL planets have (more or less) hospitalable biosphere and atmpsphere, and I uess most of them are more food producing oriented that higher TLs, so I don't believe ther should be a great problem here either.

The worst place to obtain food (IMO) should be a low pop, high TL unhospitalable planet (e.g. a TL 10+, pop 2-3 asteroid belt), where food would be scarce and mostly imported and preserved (aside from some hidroponics they may grow locally).
 
...
trust me, after a week on boil in a bag food, the first thing a soldier does when he gets back to civilisation is head for the local Macdonalds. :D

To exspensive, unless you are an officer.

An All you can eat buffet is the best after being in the field for 3 weeks to 6 months.

:)

Dave Chase
 
Found this several years ago

Must be from the TML, couldn't verify it because travellercentral archive only goes back so far. Also looks to be from TNE but some good points nonetheless.

From: Ted7@qrc.com (Mitchell K Schwartz)
Subject: Food in Space
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 16:32:22 -0400 (EDT)

Question about food aboard starships:

How much space aboard a vessel do rations take up? Please correct me if I am wrong, but rations are part of the consumables that folks aboard ship use up (and that cost 1 KCr per crew or passenger per jump). Now, its perfectly reasonable to me that some of the volume rations take up are part of the space used by the life support system. But how much is that? 1 jump (7 days per person) of rations? 10? 100? 1000?

Assume there is a standard meal pack that takes up one liter volume and weighs .5 kg. 3 per day means 21 per jump; for a crew of 9, that's 100 Kg and .2 cubic meters per jump. At 10 jumps (10 weeks; you could stay somewhere for two weeks after 4 weeks travel), that's 1 ton and 2 cubic meters. And 4 jumps is not a long trip. When you run to say 6 months, or start talking about vessels carrying more people, you really start running into a lot of space taken up by rations. A
vessel carrying 20 people with rations for 25 weeks uses 10 cubic meters and weighs over 5 tons. And those are all the equivalent of freeze dried rations.

So, how much of my vessel is given over to rations that I don't get to control? Frankly, much more than 1-2 cubic meters "by magic" is unreasonable. It should be accounted for in the vessel design. Or accounted for in the vessel's cargo hold.
Ration size, BTW, doesn't matter. If a ration pack is only .5 liter, then you are still faced with a limit; the limit is just twice as large. Since there is no differentiation by volume or price for ration quality, does that mean that there is only one choice on the quality of food served aboard any starship, be it military troop transport, first rate liner, or royal personal yacht?

One fellow player suggested that this isn't an issue, because the life support system features full recycling, from toilet to table and back
again. So what are you being charged 1 KCr per jump for if it's a closed system? What are you replenishing? What are you adding? How much space does it take up? How much can you carry? What Tech Level produces it? (Important
if you are out exploring or zooming about the Wilds) I have a number of problems with that type of system anyway. While I can easily enough buy that you can process out poisons from bodily wastes and be left with a fair amount of neutral bulk, where do you get the additional nutrition?

I'm curious what other folks have done. Or whether it has occurred to any of you at all. Note: this is granted a humano-centric view of food storage and preparation. I won't tackle the Aslan requirement for live food or the
K'kree preference for fresh plants till later.

Suggestions:
I'd suggest that a vessel can stock up to a month's meager rations or two weeks large or special rations out of life support. Carrying more rations requires additional storage. Meager rations require no special storage facilities (freeze-dried etc.). Large or special rations require refrigerated or freezing containers.

Meager: Prepackaged, prepared, ration packs, 1 l .5 kg apiece. Various types: some require just heating; some require mixing with water; some are ready to eat (cold, hard, and crunchy; think MRE). Prepared in minimal galley. It is not always clear what the component items are; the meal is almost always a single item (one bar, one dish or bowl). Quality varies from just acceptable to nearly inedible. For example: the IN/IM SISR (Std Imperial Survival Ration, called SISO by the rank
and file for Same in Same Out). Costs 3-10 Cr /meal.

Large: Standard grocery mix of food prepared from raw materials for long term storage, but not cooked. Generally about 2 l .75 kg per meal. Canned or frozen vegetables, frozen meat, grain products. Requires cooking in some form of galley (see below) to prepare. While not the highest quality, meals look like meals made of separate courses, and you can usually tell what the components are - provided they are prepared by a competent chef. Costs 12-20 Cr/ meal.

Special: Gourmet meals made of high quality, fresher versions of the above. 2.5 l, .85 kg. This requires a full galley and a fine cook (Steward-4+ or Cook-3+); otherwise this tastes simply like a better version of the above). Costs 25-50 Cr/meal.

Minimal Galley: Basically just a small Microwave or similar heating facility, a hot plate, some open counter space, and a sink. at the edge of the crew lounge. This is part of the budget for life support.

Half Galley: 4 cubic meters dedicated to food preparation, cooking, and utensil storage. Oven is large enough to cook meals for 6-10 in one sitting. Suitable for preparing either meager or large rations. Usually opens onto one side of crew lounge; sometimes partitioned off. Mass: 1.2 t. Vol 4 cu. m. Cost .12 MCr Power .1 MW
(Alternative: large ships may require several: .2 cu m./crew & passenger; minimum of 4 cu.m. 1 dedicated cook (or steward) for every full 8 cu.m. of Half Galley) Mass: .3 t. per cu. m. Cost .1 MCr/ton Power .025 MW / cu.m.

Full Galley: 12 cubic meters dedicated to food preparation, cooking, and utensil storage. Includes variable configuration ovens, toasters, stoves, etc; more cooking tools than Julia Child can shake a spoon at. Completely separate room. Generally manned by a dedicated cook, who can create some truly spectacular meals. Mass: 3.6 tons Vol 12 cu.m. Cost .6 MCr Power .4 MW (Alternative: large ships may require several: .3 cu m./fed person; minimum or 12 cu.m. Note: Not everyone aboard may be served by the Full Galley; for example, a liner's Full Galley may only serve the 1st class customers; a rich noble may have his yacht's full galley only serve his immediate party and have an additional half galley for the crew.)
Mass: .3 t. per cu. m. Cost .1 MCr/ton Power .025 MW / cu.m.

Additional Storage:
Meager rations can be stored in any container with no special requirements. To preserve more than the minimal amount of Large or Special rations, additional preservative storage space is required. (I say preservative because newer technology may come up with something beyond refrigeration).
TL Container Mass Storage Power Cost
6 1 m3 100 kg .8 m3 .02 MW .0005 MCr
6 2 m3 180 kg 1.7 m3 .035 MW .0012 MCr

Container: Volume of container
Mass: Weight of empty container (decreases with tech)
Storage: Storage volume (increases with tech)
Power: Power used by preservation technology (decreases with tech)
Cost: Cost per unit (increases with tech)

1 m3 storage 2 m3 storage
Per TL Increase:
Decrease Mass: 10 kg 20 kg
Increase Storage: .01 m3 .02 m3
Decrease Power: .001 MW .002 MW
Increase Cost: .0001 MCr .0002 MCr
For example, at TL11, a 2 m3 food storage unit is:
Mass: 80 kg Storage: 1.8 m3 Power: .025 MW Cost:.0022 MCr
Ted7

Apologize in advance if I have stepped on someone's toes
 
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Know what? Sorry, I don't think crews (much less passengers) are going to eat MREs for a week during transit. Being as I go to the grocery store once a week, I know I can store "fresh" food in my refrigerator for at least a week. And that's in my crummy 15 year old frost free Frigidaire.

Watch an episode of "Deadliest Catch" and while they're not barbecuing sides of beef on the deck, they seem to eat pretty well in their claustrophobic galley. I assume they don't do a lot of green leafy vegetables more because they'd rather consume 10K calories per day and the fact that they're generally male crews than as much that they don't want to store it. But certainly lettuce doesn't necessarily pack as tightly as canned green beans.

If we have technology to keep a person in suspended animation for a reasonably indeterminate amount of time, I'd like to think there would be something that can keep a steak, and possibly vegetable, as well preserved and come out "just as fresh" as when it went in.

Now it's fair to discuss volumes and such, but simply the premise that everyone is eating canned food or pre-prepared meals, for an entire week. That seems a stretch. Starships aren't airliners. Folks are on them for far longer periods of time, and they have more space available. The crews are likely as not to be living on the ship, even in port. Airline food has a bad enough reputation today that I don't think it needs to be brought in to the far future.
 
Well, I think a lot of this is tied into what kind of TU you imagine. If you see a week in jump space as a week of down time, with little actual "work" to be done, and lots of time to fill, then fresh food, making good meals and eating in a social become a good way to fill that time. But, if the week in jump is lots of work, with the Captain the the Pilot splitting shifts on the bridge, and the engineers having to do continuous adjustements, then easy to prepare, prepackaged meals that everyone eats on their own makes sense.

As for passangers, how culturally diverse is your TU? Depending on the situation, you could have half a dozen different cultural backgrounds to accomodate on a single small merchant ship. Having passangers purchase their own food to bring along makes more sense in that situation, then trying to come up with meals that everyone is comfortable. But, if your TU envisions a more unitary culture, at least among the travelling class (who the charactors and the NPC are part of) then making meals for all the passangers makes much more sense.

Just my thoughts...
 
The original TV dinners, with meat, vegetable, mashed potato, and fruit or dessert, was about 12 inches by 10 inches by 1 inch tall. If you throw in a 2 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch detachable utility pack with eating utensils, condiments, and beverage powders (or even liquid concentrates), it makes a 12 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch complete meal.

For 1 person for 30 days at 3 meals a day, a stack of TV dinners with varied breakfast, lunch, and diner meals would only be 90 inches tall (almost 8 feet). If you want to make it square, it's about a 2 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot pack. Easily manageable.

A Scout/Courier with double occupancy (8 people) could stack them in each stateroom (under each bunk), assuming they are shelf stable and just need to be heated. Otherwise a special place has to be made in the Galley or Cargo Hold.

The original price of a TV Dinner was $0.98, so only about 30Cr per person for a month (or 240Cr for the whole 8 person crew).

I'm sure by the 56th century, there would be shelf-stable standardized food modules about the size of a TV dinner, made just for Starships and Travellers. A 12 inch wide by 1 inch tall by 10 inch deep food module heater would probably be standard in any Starship Galley.

A High Passage meal would probably be bigger and a lot different.

So:

Food Module Pack
1 person, 1 month (90 meals)
2' x 2' x 2'
30Cr

Food Module Palette
8 person, 1 month (720 meals)
4' x 4' x 4'
240Cr
 
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I just watched the Fifth Element last night and in one scene she takes a jar about the size of a spice jar out of the cabinets shakes some pill sized things into a bowl, puts it into a microwave style oven and almost instantly out comes a roasted chicken with vegetables. Seems somewhat realistic in that regular cans, mre's etc. will seem very primitive ways of preserving food to TL 15 people. So food would have the dual preparation features of the preserved food, with an oven that rehydrates-heats the preserved food item.
 
I just watched the Fifth Element last night and in one scene she takes a jar about the size of a spice jar out of the cabinets shakes some pill sized things into a bowl, puts it into a microwave style oven and almost instantly out comes a roasted chicken with vegetables. Seems somewhat realistic in that regular cans, mre's etc. will seem very primitive ways of preserving food to TL 15 people. So food would have the dual preparation features of the preserved food, with an oven that rehydrates-heats the preserved food item.

Back to the Future had a Hydrator, and they had what looked like mini PizzaHut pizza that they put in and out came a full size PizzaHut pizza.

Dave Chase
 
Back to the Future had a Hydrator, and they had what looked like mini PizzaHut pizza that they put in and out came a full size PizzaHut pizza.

Dave Chase

Then it cooked it as well? I think that higher TL's will have room temperature stable food items that reheat-rehydrate well and can be stored in a compact manner. Nothing beat fresh food, though, so mostly that would be reserved for high passage on a star liner and would take up a good amount of room (though refrigeration/storage would probably be better ala "cold sleep" - low berth type storage). Navy and run of the mill merchant ships would be less luxurious, but adequate. In the field certain rations could be available, from dry meats, cheese and breads; to whole meals ala the tv dinner style just lift the cover and it prepares itself, maybe even some sort of pill form "short ration".
 
Look, I've flown quite a bit in the East (asia) and the inflight meals i've had, particularly Royal Brunei, were fantastic. Nice takeaway at home quality.

Flying2.jpg


Flying over Baghdad, sunrise. Everyone asleep but me :) Sorry. Have to show this photo to someone! Surreal.

Flying13.jpg
 
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