Fuel Bladders
- Thread starter Mithras
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Lycanorukke
SOC-13
The critical pressure isn't really that high (relatively speaking) - 13 atm (188 psi) - compare to oxygen ( 49.6 atm - 729 psi).
The main problems are keeping it cold (~24 Kelvin), and hydrogen diffusion.
Very well, aparently. 
Seriously?
I would say super-insulating high-tech materials, plus a near-infinite fusion power source must have something to do with it.
A fuel bladder is not designed primarily in terms of efficiency or long-term safety; it's a time-consuming, risky solution to extend a ship's range beyond what would normally be possible.
Seriously?
I would say super-insulating high-tech materials, plus a near-infinite fusion power source must have something to do with it.
A fuel bladder is not designed primarily in terms of efficiency or long-term safety; it's a time-consuming, risky solution to extend a ship's range beyond what would normally be possible.
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See, I have a busy world in MTU, which is an asteroid belt, with a large population, industry, boat building and huge orbital habitats. But there is no gas giant. Fuel must come from ice balls in the belt. Due to the enormous volume of water needed for the habitats, not to mention passing ships, I need ice mining on an industrial scale.
I envisage a large 1000ton (or larger) ice harvester resembling a flying oil-rig landing on an iceball. It scoops and turns the slush into LHyd. Rather than have this rig thing be a vast empty fuel tank, I was envisioning a system of bladders at the top which extend as filled, perhaps out to a max capacity of 5000 dtons (maybe more). The thing can reach iceballs quickly and return slowly, a hundred of these rigs can be working at anyone time.
My concept was inspired by this image I've borrowed from the web:
http://www.bagtaggar.com/sketchbook/NSS/miner2.jpg
From the site of Stanley von Medvey (http://bagtaggar.blogspot.com/)
I envisage a large 1000ton (or larger) ice harvester resembling a flying oil-rig landing on an iceball. It scoops and turns the slush into LHyd. Rather than have this rig thing be a vast empty fuel tank, I was envisioning a system of bladders at the top which extend as filled, perhaps out to a max capacity of 5000 dtons (maybe more). The thing can reach iceballs quickly and return slowly, a hundred of these rigs can be working at anyone time.
My concept was inspired by this image I've borrowed from the web:
http://www.bagtaggar.com/sketchbook/NSS/miner2.jpg
From the site of Stanley von Medvey (http://bagtaggar.blogspot.com/)
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Mithras, you're doing it wrong.
Just take one of those iceballs and strap some trusthers on it. Bring it to a close stable orbit around the industrial area and build a full-blown scooping/purifying factory on it.
Voila, instant refuelling point. Want to bring refined fuel to starport itself for the convenience of costumers? Get ourself a few unmanned 1000 ton ferries, (little more than a empty H-fuel storage tank with a truster, no life support, no bridge) and make a 24/7 fuel ferrying service.
Or if you want to get even lazier, forget the factory. Just build a mass driver on the iceball and sling ice chunks to starport itself, where they get processed into fuel, stored and sold.
Just take one of those iceballs and strap some trusthers on it. Bring it to a close stable orbit around the industrial area and build a full-blown scooping/purifying factory on it.
Voila, instant refuelling point. Want to bring refined fuel to starport itself for the convenience of costumers? Get ourself a few unmanned 1000 ton ferries, (little more than a empty H-fuel storage tank with a truster, no life support, no bridge) and make a 24/7 fuel ferrying service.
Or if you want to get even lazier, forget the factory. Just build a mass driver on the iceball and sling ice chunks to starport itself, where they get processed into fuel, stored and sold.
An orbital refinery that moved around the system to take advantage of both ice asteroids and gas giants could also work, and have the added advantage of being large enough to service heavy traffic (in both terms of numbers as well as sizes of ships) out near the jump points. That way it could pick up incoming and outgoing traffic, and still service in-system traffic.
Here's my take on that for MTU: (The low berths are in case of industrial accidents, illness, etc....just toss the guy in cold sleep until the next shuttle can evac him.)
Gas Giant Refining Platform (GGRP) TL-13
50,000 ton dispersed structure
Maneuver Drive (6) 6-G (Agility 1 / Emergency agility 6)
Power Plant (7) EP= 3500
Fuel = 3500 tons Cargo = 1915
Computer = Model 6fib (CPU-15/ Storage-35)
Vehicles = 20 Fueling Lighters
3 Shuttles (Personnel)
3 Shuttles (Cargo)
Weapons = 0
Staterooms= 550
Low Berths= 100
Emergency Low Berth= 0
Crew: 547
Bulk Fuel Capacity: 20,000 tons (refined)
5,000 tons (unrefined)
Docking Facilities for Refueling: Ships (refined only) x50
Small Craft (either) x50
Incoming Pump Stations x20
Crew Detail:
Captain / Manager Engineering 120
Pilots 2 Fueling Crew 150
Navigator 2 Service 150
Commo 2 Flight Crews (including Ground Crew and extra pilots to aid
Medical Section 20 refueling operations) 100
The GGRP is a maneuverable refinery for processing L-Hyd fuel from Gas Giant atmospheres and acting as a refueling station for ship traffic with that refined fuel. The platform’s carried Fueling Lighters operate of a round-the-clock schedule maintained by the GGRP’s computers scooping raw fuel and returning it to the incoming pump stations where it is transferred for processing. Processing begins with storage in the 5000 ton raw tankage storage, from there it is refined and transferred to the refined fuel tankage. As adjustments to the schedule are needed based on demand the computer makes those adjustments in the Lighter schedules.
Starships can refuel at the standard prices for refined fuel at any of the 50 docking stations, but size will dictate priority. Each station can accommodate up to 500 tons of ship, so a 5000 ton ship would require 10 stations to dock and fuel.
Small craft refueling stations can pump either refined or raw fuel depending on the customer’s needs, though small craft can use raw fuel without the ill effects it has on jump drives.
The GGRP has massive 6G maneuver drives to help it maintain position over the gas giant’s powerful gravity well. The GGRP can also use the drives to move to any orbit in its system to help deliver fuel should the need arise. When the GGRP is under acceleration to a different orbit it cannot perform refueling operations except by launching and recovering its own Fueling Lighters.
Fueling Lighter 55 MCr TL-12
600 ton streamlined wedge w/ scoops and processors
Maneuver Drive (C) 1-G (Agility 1 / Emergency agility 1)
Power Plant (C)
Fuel = 10 tons Cargo = 500 tons (fuel) / 38 tons (dry)
Computer = Model 1bis (CPU-4/ Storage-0)
Vehicles = 0
Weapons = 0
Staterooms= 4
Low Berths= 0
Emergency Low Berth= 0
Crew: Captain /Pilot
Navigator
2 Engineers
(Second engineer helps w/ fueling operations)
The standard in-system refueling craft is the 600 ton Fueling Lighter. The ship is used to supplement refueling operations for starports by servicing ships not capable of atmospheric re-entry, for scooping and ferrying raw fuel to Gas Giant Refueling Platforms (GGRP), and sometimes carried onboard bulk carriers to allow them to scoop and refine raw fuel.
Because of the craft’s unfortunate official designation crews often call this type of lighter a “Zippo”, “Torch”, or similar nickname. The official Ramship LIC (the primary builder) record shows, however, that there is no greater incidence of onboard fires or explosions than in any similar craft. Instead, the term “lighter” merely comes from the long tradition of designating ships and craft after wet naval terms. Lighters were small craft that serviced ships too large to dock for refueling and resupply.
Here's my take on that for MTU: (The low berths are in case of industrial accidents, illness, etc....just toss the guy in cold sleep until the next shuttle can evac him.)
Gas Giant Refining Platform (GGRP) TL-13
50,000 ton dispersed structure
Maneuver Drive (6) 6-G (Agility 1 / Emergency agility 6)
Power Plant (7) EP= 3500
Fuel = 3500 tons Cargo = 1915
Computer = Model 6fib (CPU-15/ Storage-35)
Vehicles = 20 Fueling Lighters
3 Shuttles (Personnel)
3 Shuttles (Cargo)
Weapons = 0
Staterooms= 550
Low Berths= 100
Emergency Low Berth= 0
Crew: 547
Bulk Fuel Capacity: 20,000 tons (refined)
5,000 tons (unrefined)
Docking Facilities for Refueling: Ships (refined only) x50
Small Craft (either) x50
Incoming Pump Stations x20
Crew Detail:
Captain / Manager Engineering 120
Pilots 2 Fueling Crew 150
Navigator 2 Service 150
Commo 2 Flight Crews (including Ground Crew and extra pilots to aid
Medical Section 20 refueling operations) 100
The GGRP is a maneuverable refinery for processing L-Hyd fuel from Gas Giant atmospheres and acting as a refueling station for ship traffic with that refined fuel. The platform’s carried Fueling Lighters operate of a round-the-clock schedule maintained by the GGRP’s computers scooping raw fuel and returning it to the incoming pump stations where it is transferred for processing. Processing begins with storage in the 5000 ton raw tankage storage, from there it is refined and transferred to the refined fuel tankage. As adjustments to the schedule are needed based on demand the computer makes those adjustments in the Lighter schedules.
Starships can refuel at the standard prices for refined fuel at any of the 50 docking stations, but size will dictate priority. Each station can accommodate up to 500 tons of ship, so a 5000 ton ship would require 10 stations to dock and fuel.
Small craft refueling stations can pump either refined or raw fuel depending on the customer’s needs, though small craft can use raw fuel without the ill effects it has on jump drives.
The GGRP has massive 6G maneuver drives to help it maintain position over the gas giant’s powerful gravity well. The GGRP can also use the drives to move to any orbit in its system to help deliver fuel should the need arise. When the GGRP is under acceleration to a different orbit it cannot perform refueling operations except by launching and recovering its own Fueling Lighters.
Fueling Lighter 55 MCr TL-12
600 ton streamlined wedge w/ scoops and processors
Maneuver Drive (C) 1-G (Agility 1 / Emergency agility 1)
Power Plant (C)
Fuel = 10 tons Cargo = 500 tons (fuel) / 38 tons (dry)
Computer = Model 1bis (CPU-4/ Storage-0)
Vehicles = 0
Weapons = 0
Staterooms= 4
Low Berths= 0
Emergency Low Berth= 0
Crew: Captain /Pilot
Navigator
2 Engineers
(Second engineer helps w/ fueling operations)
The standard in-system refueling craft is the 600 ton Fueling Lighter. The ship is used to supplement refueling operations for starports by servicing ships not capable of atmospheric re-entry, for scooping and ferrying raw fuel to Gas Giant Refueling Platforms (GGRP), and sometimes carried onboard bulk carriers to allow them to scoop and refine raw fuel.
Because of the craft’s unfortunate official designation crews often call this type of lighter a “Zippo”, “Torch”, or similar nickname. The official Ramship LIC (the primary builder) record shows, however, that there is no greater incidence of onboard fires or explosions than in any similar craft. Instead, the term “lighter” merely comes from the long tradition of designating ships and craft after wet naval terms. Lighters were small craft that serviced ships too large to dock for refueling and resupply.
Yes, OK they make more sense In my asteroid belt, I did consider shifting iceballs, but thought that would be a very slow method. But I can see it happening, if I've got O'Neill cylinders made out of asteroid material, I'm sure I can push iceballs and comets around. So there'd be a full-time Outland-style processing plant on the iceball, with docking stations for passing ships and shuttles to the local habitats.
Sabredog, your 50,000 ton bad-boy will dwarf everything in my campaign! I could see it in one of my systems, an industrialized superhub, with a rich intrasystem civilization. How much would a beast like that cost??
In my asteroid belt, I did consider shifting iceballs, but thought that would be a very slow method. But I can see it happening, if I've got O'Neill cylinders made out of asteroid material, I'm sure I can push iceballs and comets around. So there'd be a full-time Outland-style processing plant on the iceball, with docking stations for passing ships and shuttles to the local habitats.Sabredog, your 50,000 ton bad-boy will dwarf everything in my campaign! I could see it in one of my systems, an industrialized superhub, with a rich intrasystem civilization. How much would a beast like that cost??
I didn't worry about the price: it was built so I could run my own Outland-style adventure, and I added more to where ever I have a Naval Depot or heavily trafficked cluster of worlds on the assumption that they would be either a group effort by a cluster of worlds dependent on each other for economic support, or something the military/government would fund and help maintain for strategic reasons.
Some plot devices are just worth the price and/or the handwave.
Some plot devices are just worth the price and/or the handwave.
CT via HG. The info on docking/pumping stations and other procedures is mine since there isn't anything in the rules covering these sorts of operations. It was also a way to regulate player traffic and enforce some "realism" to ship operations by sometimes forcing them to wait their turn at the pumps. And along with my Murmansk-class Scout Tenders that cruise along the border worlds, the GGRP's have become homes away from home in some spots on the outer edge of MTU.
The one at the jumping off point that exits Terran Imperial space in the subsector the majority of civilized frontier space is in is nicknamed Last Chance Gas (naturally) and has had extensive hostel/hotel/casino/entertainment facilities added to it. It is a haven for smugglers and other shady types who use it's dark corners for moving freight (or spies, slaves, kidnap victims, insert needed plot device here) in and out of the Empire to the frontier worlds.
It is operated by a consortium that moved it just beyond the enforceable Imperial border so it could claim neutrality. Since the line was determined to be the outermost gas giant of that system (it is well beyond the official jump access points and navigation lanes), and an Imperial world is the primary world of that system, the GGRP is often under legal attack by agents and law enforcement trying to exert power over those who use it. The resulting Casablanca feel and plot seeds have kept us amused for many a session.
The one at the jumping off point that exits Terran Imperial space in the subsector the majority of civilized frontier space is in is nicknamed Last Chance Gas (naturally) and has had extensive hostel/hotel/casino/entertainment facilities added to it. It is a haven for smugglers and other shady types who use it's dark corners for moving freight (or spies, slaves, kidnap victims, insert needed plot device here) in and out of the Empire to the frontier worlds.
It is operated by a consortium that moved it just beyond the enforceable Imperial border so it could claim neutrality. Since the line was determined to be the outermost gas giant of that system (it is well beyond the official jump access points and navigation lanes), and an Imperial world is the primary world of that system, the GGRP is often under legal attack by agents and law enforcement trying to exert power over those who use it. The resulting Casablanca feel and plot seeds have kept us amused for many a session.
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
The big problem for bladders is that they would not be 'space worthy'. Soft and squishy, one micrometorite in transit and you end up with a deflated balloon at the end.
With the mass driver the ice mining station could also have a side job of refining any interesting ores it comes across while ice mining, turning them into containers, filling then with fuel and slinging them to a capture point. Once the fuel is taken out the container is melted down and sold for the metal value. And if you find any interesting gems/metals you load them into the container instead of fuel. If you are on a pure ice ball however this wouldn't work.
Another possibility may be to have the tanker do double duty as the refinery, like the Nostromo. A tug tows the refinery around the system collecting the ice cubes from groundside mining stations and refines it as it goes. As it reaches the next mining station it drops off the now empty ice containers from the previous station and collects new full ones. It them refines the new cargo as it proceed to the next station...
By the time the tug gets back to 'main base' the towed refinery has produced a full load of LH, and just pumps it off, and then the tug starts out to the mines again. Cutting out the refining/fuel storage requirements of the mining stations would make them a lot smaller and cheaper - an by extension nastier.
With the mass driver the ice mining station could also have a side job of refining any interesting ores it comes across while ice mining, turning them into containers, filling then with fuel and slinging them to a capture point. Once the fuel is taken out the container is melted down and sold for the metal value. And if you find any interesting gems/metals you load them into the container instead of fuel. If you are on a pure ice ball however this wouldn't work.
Another possibility may be to have the tanker do double duty as the refinery, like the Nostromo. A tug tows the refinery around the system collecting the ice cubes from groundside mining stations and refines it as it goes. As it reaches the next mining station it drops off the now empty ice containers from the previous station and collects new full ones. It them refines the new cargo as it proceed to the next station...
By the time the tug gets back to 'main base' the towed refinery has produced a full load of LH, and just pumps it off, and then the tug starts out to the mines again. Cutting out the refining/fuel storage requirements of the mining stations would make them a lot smaller and cheaper - an by extension nastier.
Then have the bladder inside of an accordian-like metal skin that adds protection and rigidity. As the the bladder fills the leaves of the metal container expand as needed, and vice versa. The "hull" of the container wouldn't need to be as heavy or thick as a full ship's hull (no jump grid, plumbing, etc..) so it can fold up fairly compactly. Maybe not so much that it takes up as little room as a collapsible bladder, but at say 2x the collapsed volume?
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
I idly though of that using a two-state memory plastic. In a normal state it is a thick but flat package of hard plastic, but a small current through the material and it self unfolds into a tank. Remove the current and it folds up again.
The catch though was the Hard Times rules about hulls - they had a certain required 'armour level' to stop micometeor and cosmic ray damage (10 for disposable or non-fragile cargo (no living or delicate stuff) hulls, 40 for standard ships/shuttles. If you skimped on it for whatever reason you started taking minor hits each day (note this is IIRC, dont have the book with me ATM
).The other was leakage - LH diffuses from containers at about 1% per day. While I suspect higher tech materials (and catalysts) could prevent this - such as starship tanks and 'dismountable' temporary tanks- light 'transportable' materials couldn't.
Peter Schutze
SOC-12
>It scoops and turns the slush into LHyd
Why make life hard for yourself ?
Why limit the usefulness of the slush components by only keeping the hydrogen component ?
Purify the slush into specific chemicals eg water, methane and transport it around that way.
Liquid hydrogen is frustrating to keep stored for long periods whereas pure water or methane blocks would be much more convenient to handle.
If they are re-frozen after filtering (which should be the most likely end state in a deep space mining setup) you also have less worry from micrometrorites etc
many of the chemicals would also be denser (thus smaller containers) in a solid state than the same amount of liquid hydrogen without the impurities.
From memory frozen methane contains 7x the hydrogen compared to the same m3 of liquid hydrogen under the required pressure to keep it liquid. Its not until you get to solid "metallic" hydrogen (in situations like a gas giants core) that the density balance tips in favour of pure hydrogen
Besides once you get to the starport / habitat needing your liquid hydrogen you might find someone who will buy the "waste" oxygen from converting the water into liquid hydrogen or a chemical complex in need of the other wastes like the carbon from the methane
Why make life hard for yourself ?
Why limit the usefulness of the slush components by only keeping the hydrogen component ?
Purify the slush into specific chemicals eg water, methane and transport it around that way.
Liquid hydrogen is frustrating to keep stored for long periods whereas pure water or methane blocks would be much more convenient to handle.
If they are re-frozen after filtering (which should be the most likely end state in a deep space mining setup) you also have less worry from micrometrorites etc
many of the chemicals would also be denser (thus smaller containers) in a solid state than the same amount of liquid hydrogen without the impurities.
From memory frozen methane contains 7x the hydrogen compared to the same m3 of liquid hydrogen under the required pressure to keep it liquid. Its not until you get to solid "metallic" hydrogen (in situations like a gas giants core) that the density balance tips in favour of pure hydrogen
Besides once you get to the starport / habitat needing your liquid hydrogen you might find someone who will buy the "waste" oxygen from converting the water into liquid hydrogen or a chemical complex in need of the other wastes like the carbon from the methane
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
The fuel bladders described in the game material are intended to be inside the ship's cargo bay, therefore no need for space-worthiness. Putting them outside the hull changes a lot.
All very interesting!
I will retain my concept, firstly because I love the artwork I posted, secondly because I love the idea! These harvesting rigs (my design worled out to 600 tons, capable of lugging 3200 dtons of stuff) could be used by independants that supply the further habitats and colonies, far away from the giant refinaries drilling into captured iceballs at the two O'Neill habitats. Here they can move from one hollowed asteroid base to the next. And I never thought about just getting out the water or methane, and letting the buyer do what they will with it. So the bladder would be filled with water...! Great!
Micrometeoroids aren't a problem, I think I'm going to use a non-accelerating constant speed gravity drive that operates using a warp-field. The field naturally deflects micrometeorids.
I will retain my concept, firstly because I love the artwork I posted, secondly because I love the idea! These harvesting rigs (my design worled out to 600 tons, capable of lugging 3200 dtons of stuff) could be used by independants that supply the further habitats and colonies, far away from the giant refinaries drilling into captured iceballs at the two O'Neill habitats. Here they can move from one hollowed asteroid base to the next. And I never thought about just getting out the water or methane, and letting the buyer do what they will with it. So the bladder would be filled with water...! Great!
Micrometeoroids aren't a problem, I think I'm going to use a non-accelerating constant speed gravity drive that operates using a warp-field. The field naturally deflects micrometeorids.
Peter, are you saying that a transport carrying 1000 dtons of frozen methane could be turned into 7000 tons of LHyd at the destination? Pardon my poor chemistry credentials!
Paul
The Methane (CH4) is a way more dense method of storing Hydrogen, but you'll need to get rid of the carbon.... Liquid is 0.4 T per cubic meter, of which 1/4 is hydrogen (4 of 16 atomic mass units).. for 0.1T per cubic meter, as opposed to 0.07T per cubic meter as LHyd. 1.4T per Td as liquid methane.
Water is 1/9 hydrogen.... which puts it at 0.11T Hydrogen per cubic meter. 50% improvement over L-Hyd, but at a high extraction cost.
The Methane (CH4) is a way more dense method of storing Hydrogen, but you'll need to get rid of the carbon.... Liquid is 0.4 T per cubic meter, of which 1/4 is hydrogen (4 of 16 atomic mass units).. for 0.1T per cubic meter, as opposed to 0.07T per cubic meter as LHyd. 1.4T per Td as liquid methane.
Water is 1/9 hydrogen.... which puts it at 0.11T Hydrogen per cubic meter. 50% improvement over L-Hyd, but at a high extraction cost.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Well, unless you're heating it it'll quickly become ice out there in the big black.
It works because Traveller rules (like your warp drive, perhaps) accelerate volume, not mass. If you had to spend fuel accelerating all that extra mass, it might not be worthwhile transporting Methane or water, even if you could find a buyer for the other chemicals.
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