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Gas in the tank

Lots of good replies from several people!

Originally posted by far-trader:
Bad news for them, you seem to have overlooked the week already spent in J-space. They only have 30tons of fuel left at this point, not enough for a suicide J1 on fumes
Hmm...

I know the actual rules are vague on this, but I've always thought of the fuel requirement for jump to be all-inclusive.

If 40 tons are needed for a J-1, and 80 tons are needed for a J-2...

...then, what's happening, in a J-1, is that 30 tons are required for the actual jump while 10 tons are used to power the powerplant and maintain the jump bubble during the jump.

....if a J-2 is happening, then 70 tons are used to make the jump while 10 tons are used to keep the powerplant operational (heat, ship's power, etc) and maintain the jump bubble.


-------------------------------------

But...

Then there's Sig's mention of the earliest X-Boats not even having a powerplant.

In that case...maybe the jump drive maintains the jump bubble during jump (not the powerplant).

I guess it depends on how all that stuff fits together...
 
Lots of good replies from several people!

Originally posted by far-trader:
Bad news for them, you seem to have overlooked the week already spent in J-space. They only have 30tons of fuel left at this point, not enough for a suicide J1 on fumes
Hmm...

I know the actual rules are vague on this, but I've always thought of the fuel requirement for jump to be all-inclusive.

If 40 tons are needed for a J-1, and 80 tons are needed for a J-2...

...then, what's happening, in a J-1, is that 30 tons are required for the actual jump while 10 tons are used to power the powerplant and maintain the jump bubble during the jump.

....if a J-2 is happening, then 70 tons are used to make the jump while 10 tons are used to keep the powerplant operational (heat, ship's power, etc) and maintain the jump bubble.


-------------------------------------

But...

Then there's Sig's mention of the earliest X-Boats not even having a powerplant.

In that case...maybe the jump drive maintains the jump bubble during jump (not the powerplant).

I guess it depends on how all that stuff fits together...
 
Originally posted by WJP:
I know the actual rules are vague on this, but I've always thought of the fuel requirement for jump to be all-inclusive.
WJP,

It is. Don't over analyze the problem.

If 40 tons are needed for a J-1, and 80 tons are needed for a J-2...
Yes, that is correct.

...then, what's happening, in a J-1, is that 30 tons are required for the actual jump while 10 tons are used to power the powerplant and maintain the jump bubble during the jump.
And that is completely wrong. If that were true the early, powerplant-less x-boat would have needed only 30 dTons to jump 4 parsecs. Oddly enough, even without a powerplant, that early x-boat still requires 40 dTons.

Per CT, the jump drive aboard your A2 requires 40 tons to jump one parsec - period. Per CT, the power plant/m-drive aboard you A2 requires 10 tons per week - period.

....if a J-2 is happening, then 70 tons are used to make the jump while 10 tons are used to keep the powerplant operational (heat, ship's power, etc) and maintain the jump bubble.
Maintain the jump bubble? Yes, that's part of the jump drive's job. Fuel the power plant? No, different job altogether.

Then there's Sig's mention of the earliest X-Boats not even having a powerplant.
And the later x-boats are fixed by including a power plant. Don't over analyze this.

In that case...maybe the jump drive maintains the jump bubble during jump (not the powerplant).
Sure it does. Where did it ever say any differently?

I guess it depends on how all that stuff fits together...
Exactly.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by WJP:
I know the actual rules are vague on this, but I've always thought of the fuel requirement for jump to be all-inclusive.
WJP,

It is. Don't over analyze the problem.

If 40 tons are needed for a J-1, and 80 tons are needed for a J-2...
Yes, that is correct.

...then, what's happening, in a J-1, is that 30 tons are required for the actual jump while 10 tons are used to power the powerplant and maintain the jump bubble during the jump.
And that is completely wrong. If that were true the early, powerplant-less x-boat would have needed only 30 dTons to jump 4 parsecs. Oddly enough, even without a powerplant, that early x-boat still requires 40 dTons.

Per CT, the jump drive aboard your A2 requires 40 tons to jump one parsec - period. Per CT, the power plant/m-drive aboard you A2 requires 10 tons per week - period.

....if a J-2 is happening, then 70 tons are used to make the jump while 10 tons are used to keep the powerplant operational (heat, ship's power, etc) and maintain the jump bubble.
Maintain the jump bubble? Yes, that's part of the jump drive's job. Fuel the power plant? No, different job altogether.

Then there's Sig's mention of the earliest X-Boats not even having a powerplant.
And the later x-boats are fixed by including a power plant. Don't over analyze this.

In that case...maybe the jump drive maintains the jump bubble during jump (not the powerplant).
Sure it does. Where did it ever say any differently?

I guess it depends on how all that stuff fits together...
Exactly.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by WJP:
...My question is: How long do you think the ship can operate on just battery power with the powerplant shut down?
Perusing Book 2 I stumbled across its canonical answer to this question. 1d6 days (pg. 6 "Drive Failure").

Fits rather nice with my old remembered 1 day per powerplant size (1 through 6) so that must have been its genesis
Of course with larger powerplants (like from Book 5) you get even more time.
 
Originally posted by WJP:
...My question is: How long do you think the ship can operate on just battery power with the powerplant shut down?
Perusing Book 2 I stumbled across its canonical answer to this question. 1d6 days (pg. 6 "Drive Failure").

Fits rather nice with my old remembered 1 day per powerplant size (1 through 6) so that must have been its genesis
Of course with larger powerplants (like from Book 5) you get even more time.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Perusing Book 2 I stumbled across its canonical answer to this question. 1d6 days (pg. 6 "Drive Failure").
Ooooo...Very cool, Far Trade Dan, very cool indeed.

This is exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Awesome.

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Perusing Book 2 I stumbled across its canonical answer to this question. 1d6 days (pg. 6 "Drive Failure").
Ooooo...Very cool, Far Trade Dan, very cool indeed.

This is exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Awesome.

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Perusing Book 2 I stumbled across its canonical answer to this question. 1d6 days (pg. 6 "Drive Failure").
Ah, you beat me to the punch. ;)

But as to the overall logistics...

I'm a little confused about the original fuel profile.

As per canon, a Type A2 is a 200-dton Jump-2 vessel, and typically (B2, 2e) needs only 60 dtons of fuel: 40 dtons of Jump fuel (20% of 200) and 20 Powerplant fuel (Powerplant-2 times 10 dtons).

What's being described (maybe from a thread last week which I missed?) is more like a Solomani Type SA, a 400-dton Jump-2 merchant. That vessel requires a base 100 dtons of fuel: 20% times 400 equals 80, plus 10 dtons times Powerplant-2. Looks like they're carrying 20 dtons more fuel than they typically need. (I am assuming M-2 and P-2 here, since a B2 "merchantman" whose M-drive rating exceeds her J-drive rating is not a "merchantman" but rather some sort of "yacht" or "gunboat", as I can guarantee she won't meet expenses doing honest haulage no matter how one "adjusts" the trade/speculation system.)

Normally, they hop 2 pscs and burn 80 dtons of Jump fuel, plus (approximately, if one insists on that dorky 168 hours ± 10% Jump duration nonsense) 5 dtons for the Powerplant (one-fourth of 20 dtons), leaving (again, "approximately" :mad: ) 15 (three weeks' worth) in the tanks. But for whatever reason, this version has an extra 20 onboard, bringing the leftover total to 35-ish (which is around seven weeks' worth, incidentally).

35 dtons still isn't enough for an escape (even Jump-0 to the other side of the system takes a minimum 10%, meaning 40 dtons), but it might have been possible to plan ahead. To whit: is the vessel (again, from the examples of the Type SA and Type R) carrying a standard 20-dton Launch, fitted as a Lifeboat, perhaps? If player-characters have been trained to the proper level of paranoia appropriate to a "hard science fiction" setting, they'd have long ago fitted it with a modest-sized collapsing tank for just such an emergency, and would be in the habit of keeping it topped off for a rainy day.

Then they could simply pump all however many spare dtons of fuel they managed to bring with them aboard the Launch into the starship's tanks (before they leave Jumpspace, rather than in combat, I should think). As long as they have at least 5 dtons (the rest of the Launch being emer low berths and whatnot), they can top up the starship to 40.

So that solves the Jump fuel problem.

What to do about Powerplant (and thus life supp)?

Two options. On the one hand, they can pile into the Lifeboat, fire it up but not launch it, and pack crew and pasengers (except maybe the regular Lows, who'll be fine where they are since low berths operate on internal power appearantly) into the emer lows as either couches or proper low for the week in Jump (Fast Drug can make the time in a couch pass quicker), then just let the mothership sputter and go cold while in Jump. This requires the (reasonable?) assumption that Powerplants are not required to maintain Jump once its initiated, but normally run during Jump only to provide power to all the other ship systems. Upon breakout, they temporarily abandon the mothership (no, it's not then available for salavage; see other threads on that topic) and go look for help (or at least more fuel).

On the other hand, if they have enough extra fuel stashed away, 10 dtons or so, they can put a total of 45 into the starship, and make a Jump-1 (or less) escape outta there as "normal"... and, as expected, they'll be "running on vapors" upon the next breakout, so there's probably a sortie aboard the Launch to look forward to at that point.

IMTU, I build my Type SAs with 100 dtons of fuel, no default small craft, and a 180-dton hold (6 Cutter Modules equivalent). I then stick a 30-dton collapsing tank in there for the aforementioned rainy day. On less-than-full-freight runs, with 130 dtons of fuel total, she's got what she needs for an emergency Jump-1 after a routine Jump-2.

The only other issue I have is that if the characters deplete the batteries after 1D6 days, what do they then use to restart the fusion reaction in the Powerplant? Presumably they can, somehow... but it's unclear where they gets the joules...
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Perusing Book 2 I stumbled across its canonical answer to this question. 1d6 days (pg. 6 "Drive Failure").
Ah, you beat me to the punch. ;)

But as to the overall logistics...

I'm a little confused about the original fuel profile.

As per canon, a Type A2 is a 200-dton Jump-2 vessel, and typically (B2, 2e) needs only 60 dtons of fuel: 40 dtons of Jump fuel (20% of 200) and 20 Powerplant fuel (Powerplant-2 times 10 dtons).

What's being described (maybe from a thread last week which I missed?) is more like a Solomani Type SA, a 400-dton Jump-2 merchant. That vessel requires a base 100 dtons of fuel: 20% times 400 equals 80, plus 10 dtons times Powerplant-2. Looks like they're carrying 20 dtons more fuel than they typically need. (I am assuming M-2 and P-2 here, since a B2 "merchantman" whose M-drive rating exceeds her J-drive rating is not a "merchantman" but rather some sort of "yacht" or "gunboat", as I can guarantee she won't meet expenses doing honest haulage no matter how one "adjusts" the trade/speculation system.)

Normally, they hop 2 pscs and burn 80 dtons of Jump fuel, plus (approximately, if one insists on that dorky 168 hours ± 10% Jump duration nonsense) 5 dtons for the Powerplant (one-fourth of 20 dtons), leaving (again, "approximately" :mad: ) 15 (three weeks' worth) in the tanks. But for whatever reason, this version has an extra 20 onboard, bringing the leftover total to 35-ish (which is around seven weeks' worth, incidentally).

35 dtons still isn't enough for an escape (even Jump-0 to the other side of the system takes a minimum 10%, meaning 40 dtons), but it might have been possible to plan ahead. To whit: is the vessel (again, from the examples of the Type SA and Type R) carrying a standard 20-dton Launch, fitted as a Lifeboat, perhaps? If player-characters have been trained to the proper level of paranoia appropriate to a "hard science fiction" setting, they'd have long ago fitted it with a modest-sized collapsing tank for just such an emergency, and would be in the habit of keeping it topped off for a rainy day.

Then they could simply pump all however many spare dtons of fuel they managed to bring with them aboard the Launch into the starship's tanks (before they leave Jumpspace, rather than in combat, I should think). As long as they have at least 5 dtons (the rest of the Launch being emer low berths and whatnot), they can top up the starship to 40.

So that solves the Jump fuel problem.

What to do about Powerplant (and thus life supp)?

Two options. On the one hand, they can pile into the Lifeboat, fire it up but not launch it, and pack crew and pasengers (except maybe the regular Lows, who'll be fine where they are since low berths operate on internal power appearantly) into the emer lows as either couches or proper low for the week in Jump (Fast Drug can make the time in a couch pass quicker), then just let the mothership sputter and go cold while in Jump. This requires the (reasonable?) assumption that Powerplants are not required to maintain Jump once its initiated, but normally run during Jump only to provide power to all the other ship systems. Upon breakout, they temporarily abandon the mothership (no, it's not then available for salavage; see other threads on that topic) and go look for help (or at least more fuel).

On the other hand, if they have enough extra fuel stashed away, 10 dtons or so, they can put a total of 45 into the starship, and make a Jump-1 (or less) escape outta there as "normal"... and, as expected, they'll be "running on vapors" upon the next breakout, so there's probably a sortie aboard the Launch to look forward to at that point.

IMTU, I build my Type SAs with 100 dtons of fuel, no default small craft, and a 180-dton hold (6 Cutter Modules equivalent). I then stick a 30-dton collapsing tank in there for the aforementioned rainy day. On less-than-full-freight runs, with 130 dtons of fuel total, she's got what she needs for an emergency Jump-1 after a routine Jump-2.

The only other issue I have is that if the characters deplete the batteries after 1D6 days, what do they then use to restart the fusion reaction in the Powerplant? Presumably they can, somehow... but it's unclear where they gets the joules...
 
Originally posted by boomslang:

I'm a little confused about the original fuel profile.

As per canon, a Type A2 is a 200-dton Jump-2 vessel, and typically (B2, 2e) needs only 60 dtons of fuel: 40 dtons of Jump fuel (20% of 200) and 20 Powerplant fuel (Powerplant-2 times 10 dtons).
If you count up the squares in the deckplans of the Type A2, you'll see that it's volumne is a 400 ton hull (not the canocal 200 ton).

The Type A2 is about the same size as the 400 ton subsidized merchant. Check out the deckplans in Traders and Gunboats, especially the fuel tank--it's 120 tons (exactly what is needed for a 400 ton vessel).

I used Book 2 design to re-build the Type A2 on a 400 ton hull.

Also, if you check out (some sources) of MT, you'll see that this discrepency was caught, and the Type A2 (in MT canon) is sometimes referred to as a 400 ton vessel.
 
Originally posted by boomslang:

I'm a little confused about the original fuel profile.

As per canon, a Type A2 is a 200-dton Jump-2 vessel, and typically (B2, 2e) needs only 60 dtons of fuel: 40 dtons of Jump fuel (20% of 200) and 20 Powerplant fuel (Powerplant-2 times 10 dtons).
If you count up the squares in the deckplans of the Type A2, you'll see that it's volumne is a 400 ton hull (not the canocal 200 ton).

The Type A2 is about the same size as the 400 ton subsidized merchant. Check out the deckplans in Traders and Gunboats, especially the fuel tank--it's 120 tons (exactly what is needed for a 400 ton vessel).

I used Book 2 design to re-build the Type A2 on a 400 ton hull.

Also, if you check out (some sources) of MT, you'll see that this discrepency was caught, and the Type A2 (in MT canon) is sometimes referred to as a 400 ton vessel.
 
Originally posted by WJP:
Also, if you check out (some sources) of MT, you'll see that this discrepency was caught, and the Type A2 (in MT canon) is sometimes referred to as a 400 ton vessel.
I'm kinda Old School: I don't consider MT to be part of the CT canon... :D

Either way, I still say you're carrying either 20 dtons more fuel than B2 says you need, or just 10 dtons less than your crew will wish they had...
 
Originally posted by WJP:
Also, if you check out (some sources) of MT, you'll see that this discrepency was caught, and the Type A2 (in MT canon) is sometimes referred to as a 400 ton vessel.
I'm kinda Old School: I don't consider MT to be part of the CT canon... :D

Either way, I still say you're carrying either 20 dtons more fuel than B2 says you need, or just 10 dtons less than your crew will wish they had...
 
Isn't Starship Operators Manual written for MegaTraveller? IIRC they did away with "Powerplant classes" and there is no link between JumpEngine and Reactor.

I'll re-check the rules tonight.
 
Isn't Starship Operators Manual written for MegaTraveller? IIRC they did away with "Powerplant classes" and there is no link between JumpEngine and Reactor.

I'll re-check the rules tonight.
 
Originally posted by boomslang:
Originally posted by WJP:
[qb]Either way, I still say you're carrying either 20 dtons more fuel than B2 says you need, or just 10 dtons less than your crew will wish they had...
Required jump fuel is: 0.1MJn

0.1 * 400 * 2 = 80 tons for the Jump Drive


Required fuel for the PP and M-Drive is: 10Pn

This ship has PP-D, required for a 400 ton hull to push a Jump Drive-D (for the J-2 performance).

PP fuel is: 10 * 4 = 40

80 + 40 = 120

120 tons is correct, per Book 2, for this 400 ton vessel.
 
Originally posted by boomslang:
Originally posted by WJP:
[qb]Either way, I still say you're carrying either 20 dtons more fuel than B2 says you need, or just 10 dtons less than your crew will wish they had...
Required jump fuel is: 0.1MJn

0.1 * 400 * 2 = 80 tons for the Jump Drive


Required fuel for the PP and M-Drive is: 10Pn

This ship has PP-D, required for a 400 ton hull to push a Jump Drive-D (for the J-2 performance).

PP fuel is: 10 * 4 = 40

80 + 40 = 120

120 tons is correct, per Book 2, for this 400 ton vessel.
 
Originally posted by WJP:
Required fuel for the PP and M-Drive is: 10Pn

This ship has PP-D, required for a 400 ton hull to push a Jump Drive-D (for the J-2 performance).

PP fuel is: 10 * 4 = 40

80 + 40 = 120

120 tons is correct, per Book 2, for this 400 ton vessel.
No.

From the B2 Drive Potential Table, the Pn of a Powerplant-D in a 400-dton hull is 2, not 4. Any Drive-D (such as your J-drive and your M-drive) makes Level-2 performance in a 201-to-400-dton hull.

Really. I promise.
 
Originally posted by WJP:
Required fuel for the PP and M-Drive is: 10Pn

This ship has PP-D, required for a 400 ton hull to push a Jump Drive-D (for the J-2 performance).

PP fuel is: 10 * 4 = 40

80 + 40 = 120

120 tons is correct, per Book 2, for this 400 ton vessel.
No.

From the B2 Drive Potential Table, the Pn of a Powerplant-D in a 400-dton hull is 2, not 4. Any Drive-D (such as your J-drive and your M-drive) makes Level-2 performance in a 201-to-400-dton hull.

Really. I promise.
 
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