Has Agent changed your vision of the Third Imperium?

[AtlanticFriend]

That's the "what's the even-worse outcome" to be prevented. The Wave is going to totally screw over the Imperium. It may have been seen as necessary to break the Imperium up before the Wave arrived.

This would give each faction the ability to respond to it differently, and perhaps one of their approaches would work (and be isolated from failed efforts by other factions).

Now that's a very clever idea! Geopolitical genetics... The Imperium breaks in pieces in order to recombine its components later, once the Empress Wave has washed away.

I was often dumbfounded to read that Dulinor, before the assassination, had asked Strephon to step down, with no consequences. Your theory, Grav, would offer a rationale to Strephon's inaction: he needs Dulinor to initiate the Rebellion. Of course, that also means he accepts to put his own wife and daugthter in mortal peril, and that he plans on having an Akhalikoi dispute Dulinor's claim.

 

[mike wightman]

How much peril are you in if you and your entire family have wafer back up and clone body banks...

 

[AtlanticFriend]

How much peril are you in if you and your entire family have wafer back up and clone body banks...

True that. Hmmm, but would a wafer be recoverable if the body it's "wearing" is killed?

 

[mike wightman]

According to T5 you can have regular personality/memory back ups - you may lose a few <time period of your choice> due to the date of your death compared withthe date of your last back up.

This is mentioned in T5.

Turns TL13+ into a very different culture for the rich who can afford this...

 

[Grav_Moped]

True that. Hmmm, but would a wafer be recoverable if the body it's "wearing" is killed?

According to a recent short story by MWM (it's short, might just have been an excerpted chapter), apparently it is. It's used as a plot element. Memories accrued by a deceased copy can be re-integrated into an active personality copy using the normal wafer-swap mechanics from the novel. As usual, it's an unpleasant process.

 

[whartung]

That's the "what's the even-worse outcome" to be prevented. The Wave is going to totally screw over the Imperium. It may have been seen as necessary to break the Imperium up before the Wave arrived.

Has anything canonical been written post-wave?

1248 isn't post-wave, is it?

Not sure when it's scheduled to hit. Zho's, Regency and the Marches are the first to be hit as I understand it.

Do the Zho's understand it? Are they going to try and "get out of the way" ala Puppeteers?

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Joes know it's coming (as of 1105, it's coming up their Core Expedition Route but won't reach the main part of their empire until after the Hard Times era*).

This is apparently part of the motivation for their repeated attempts to expand into Imperial space.


*At least as of now. It's been repeatedly accelerated by retcons, it might end up moving even faster...

 

[mike wightman]

The Zhodani didn't fight the frontier wars to expand into Imperial space, they fought them to stop Imperial expansion.

A massive retcon was introduced to give the Zhodani a reason to try and take Rhylanor - why they didn't just show the Imperial authorities their data on the wave and ask for access to the Ancient device that could have stopped it is beyond my reasoning.

The retcon to the speed of the wave and making it ftl invalidates the 1248 setting.

 

[aramis]

Maybe the Implant Chips is a Cymbeline. The logic would be, since they are they are the only sentient "machines" (that I know of), they would be the only one able to preserve the complexity of maintaining a distinct personality and free volition.

It is established in canon (Signal GK, IIRC) that the 3I doesn't know about the Cymbeline chips until the 1100's...

So, probably not.

 

[mike wightman]

It is established in canon that:

Imperial science was aware of the possibility of inorganic
microchip intelligence before its discovery on Cymbeline in
1067.

They researched the deyo transponder and the rest is history.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

It is established in canon (Signal GK, IIRC) that the 3I doesn't know about the Cymbeline chips until the 1100's...

So, probably not.

Ah, damn. No, then. Too bad, this idea had some internal logic.

 

[robject]

Has anything canonical been written post-wave?

Only at a high level. The starchart is still changing.

GALAXIAD (1900) (FFE). There are brief mentions in the Traveller5 Core Rules, which also briefly overviews the dozen or so "eras" in the history of Charted Space.

Many articles in Xboat briefly mention post-Wave facts... but Xboat is intended to be an idea mill because the touch is so light.

The post-Collapse timeline is held tentatively in my head, and somewhat more certainly in Marc's head. It has a few data points, but has a lot of not-sufficiently-answered questions surrounding the progress and fates of empires in the 1200s.

The two timelines (OTU, LTU) converge somewhere around 1450 (exact date unknowable).

1248 isn't post-wave, is it?

It isn't.

In my opinion, 1248 is a branch in the timeline that postpones the Wave by perhaps a century, to rejoin the timeline somewhere around 1450.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

First, regardless of any other factor, I freely admit my bias. 1248 my favorite era regardless of all other factors. Others may mock or poo-poo it, but I'm proud of my heart on sleeve. OTOH, I acknowledge the ... difficulties of it which I will get into.

Has anything canonical been written post-wave?

1248 isn't post-wave, is it?

Yes, at this time 1248 is canon. :CoW: The Traveller 5 Core Rulebooks clearly marks as one of the Important Eras of History (5.10 Book 1 p.13). That is the basis I go by (like my signature). Like many versions of the game there will be inconsistencies between versions the problem is the major inconsistency is a whopper.
In brief: The books chronicle history from the beginning of the Rebellion in year 1116 to current year 1248. It tied up various loose ends, created the 4th Imperium, broke up the Marches into semi warring factions (Darrians and Swordies are friends!:xh. Also, Lucan's fate is revealed, the K'kree go jihad'ing, and Vland gets Scoured the Ancient's way. Some hate it, I welcome it.

Not sure when it's scheduled to hit. Zho's, Regency and the Marches are the first to be hit as I understand it.

Do the Zho's understand it? Are they going to try and "get out of the way" ala Puppeteers?

...And this is the reason it may not be canon. All sources acknowledge the Empress Wave hitting Spinward Marches around IY 1203. The disagreements are speed and deadliness which impacts the history before 1203 and after.
A. Originally, in TNE and 1248 books, the Wave moved at lightspeed (1 hex ~ 3.26 years) and wasn't so deadly. It disrupted psionics in Zhodani society so much to its core with billions upon billions fleeing and unable to describe why. Psions go insane, shut down, get a headache, etc. But generally, proles and other non-psions were not impacted unless the were under psion influence. But this would imply that Zhodane Sector is already suffering and has been since the 1080s. And the Vargr States, Julians, etc.
B.Newer sources, Mongoose AM4: Zhodani and the Agent Novel make the Wave MUCH deadlier, as to affect non-psions even grasses and such, at approx speed of 1pc. (hex) per year. This works fine for the coreward Vargr and Zhodani sector unpreparednes, but not history. The Spinward Marches portion of TNE books would be invalidated to some degree, as well as my beloved 1248.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Do the Zho's understand it? Are they going to try and "get out of the way" ala Puppeteers?

On this point currently: As written in the various sources, ummm yes, they know, but as of 1105 they don't understand it well enough. Fienzhatshtiavl(trans. literally, ‘yonder, chilling thought’) was identified by the Seventh Core Expedition and correlated to previous expeditions and stories. The have a handle on speed and what it does but not why. More importantly, they don't seem to be able to counteract it. They know that unless they can, they estimate the homeworld will be hit in 1183. There are plans to move the nobles, but that's it. Mongoose AM4 goes into detail.

 

[mike wightman]

As you say, 1248 can not be considered canon anymore.

Mongoose has overwritten some of the setting elements in it, and the retcon to an FTL wave means the wave hits the Spinward Marches much sooner than the 1248 timeline.

If 1248 is canon then the MgT changes can not be canon nor can MWM changes be.

Now since it is MWM's setting then his changes must be considered canon and therefore 1248 becomes an alternative universe where the wave travelled at the speed of light as per the original details in TNE.

As I have posted a few times before, T5 gives us a get out clause/technology. Reality manipulation...

 

[mike wightman]

On this point currently: As written in the various sources, ummm yes, they know, but as of 1105 they don't understand it well enough. Fienzhatshtiavl(trans. literally, ‘yonder, chilling thought’) was identified by the Seventh Core Expedition and correlated to previous expeditions and stories. The have a handle on speed and what it does but not why. More importantly, they don't seem to be able to counteract it. They know that unless they can, they estimate the homeworld will be hit in 1183. There are plans to move the nobles, but that's it. Mongoose AM4 goes into detail.

This is another preposterous bit of retconning. As of 1105 the Zhodani will have been studying the wave for decades and have centuries worth of data, and since previous core expeditions managed to 'overjump' the wave then this in one way to avoid it.

They discovered the wave effects in the seventh expedition, and yet still launched an eighth expedition, don't you thin they will have sent a research ship or two to investigate the wave as a separate mission?

First rule of a retcon, it must make more sense than what it replaces - the new version of the wave and the Zhodani details fail that test.

 

[RandyB]

As you say, 1248 can not be considered canon anymore.

Mongoose has overwritten some of the setting elements in it, and the retcon to an FTL wave means the wave hits the Spinward Marches much sooner than the 1248 timeline.

If 1248 is canon then the MgT changes can not be canon nor can MWM changes be.

Now since it is MWM's setting then his changes must be considered canon and therefore 1248 becomes an alternative universe where the wave travelled at the speed of light as per the original details in TNE.

As I have posted a few times before, T5 gives us a get out clause/technology. Reality manipulation...

I thought the out was "unreliable narrators of pre-Galaxiad eras"?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

This is another preposterous bit of retconning. As of 1105 the Zhodani will have been studying the wave for decades and have centuries worth of data, and since previous core expeditions managed to 'overjump' the wave then this in one way to avoid it.

They discovered the wave effects in the seventh expedition, and yet still launched an eighth expedition, don't you thin they will have sent a research ship or two to investigate the wave as a separate mission?

First rule of a retcon, it must make more sense than what it replaces - the new version of the wave and the Zhodani details fail that test.

They have Mike. It only appears that way because they did not mention it. I omitted much to summarize 600+ pages of the Wave and the four primary 1248 books into two posts. But you are wrong. Grumble all you like all you like but the licensee (Mongoose) was permitted to print it, the current IP holder (Marc) permitted it and has been clear on how he handles canon (my signature is a direct quote of Marc's view of retcon's to remind me) and the primary author/coordinator of T5 (Rob Eaglestone) have not dismissed it. Not yet anyways. Rob even commented earlier in the thread:

There are brief mentions in the Traveller5 Core Rules, which also briefly overviews the dozen or so "eras" in the history of Charted Space.
Many articles in Xboat briefly mention post-Wave facts... but Xboat is intended to be an idea mill because the touch is so light.
The post-Collapse timeline is held tentatively in my head, and somewhat more certainly in Marc's head. It has a few data points, but has a lot of not-sufficiently-answered questions surrounding the progress and fates of empires in the 1200s.
The two timelines (OTU, LTU) converge somewhere around 1450 (exact date unknowable).
In my opinion, 1248 is a branch in the timeline that postpones the Wave by perhaps a century, to rejoin the timeline somewhere around 1450.

This, to me, implies at least, that the jury is still out.

 

[robject]

This, to me, implies at least, that the jury is still out [on 1248].

Mike beat me to the T5 reference to 1248. It exists in some form or another. But also as Mike has noted, the Wave is too fast for the full monty of a rich 1248 background. That's why I mention a branch in the timeline... and why Reality Manipulation might be in effect... or unreliable historians... and so on.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

As you say, 1248 can not be considered canon anymore.

I agree that the entirety cannot be accepted but there are primary events that can still occur because
A: Too far away from the Wave or too early in the timeline that the Wave could not, as previously or currently described, prevent.
B: Virus acting for some time as an "isolation blanket" preventing contamination of events from one area of Charted space to impact another from another.

It has been said that 700 years will erase everything. I disagree. The events I speak of will, I think, will echo down the centuries even onto Galaxiad. Fear, hate, religion and genetics are great motivators to remember.

I speak first of The Lords of Thunder. Long before 1203, The Lords of Thunder have made an alliance with a "friendly" strain of Virus. They go back to the homeworld, kill the Steppelord, take over and declare a jihad on all meat eaters, including humans (and other other omnivores). Any Vargr and Julian refugees from Coreward will only encounter death. By 1203, Gateway and surrounding has been purged and Ley Sector nearly so. Any survivors of the pogrom will not forget telling horror stories of the robots, the lances or the hooves. And I suspect neither will the K'kree forget the glory days and the instinctive fear they wiil have for all things gnaak,