Heretics of the TNE, and why

[Liam Devlin]

It may come as a wonder to some, why I chose the signature sign "TNE-HIC (heretic in Chief)". perhaps now is a good time to explain, what makes me a TNE heretic (for the curious, or those who might wanna know.).

As discussed on this page before, GDW and the Ilelik Kuligaan vision, coupled with the jingoistic RC skew towards all things 3I as evil/ bad/ or just not good, "lets redo it all over", sticks in the craw of anyone who enjoyed the 3I before the Great War/Rebellion era. We remember the good it stood for. We did not forget.

Reason Two, if GDW was going to continue this course, how to re-align such a thing towards common sense? One must commit heresy from DN vison of OTU, one assumes, or create an alternate timeline. I chose the former.

Reason Three, rather than trash all else that had gone before, I utilized all under the banner of Traveller prior to TNE as a canon resource (this gets me askew a few folks who remember the way IBIS suddenly appeared as IRIS in a cHallenge/ Dragon magazine issue.IIRC, It was a Challenge from my xeroxed sheets on em.

Reason Four, the initial view of the TNE was that PCs would have a better/ bigger impact on the universe around them, but then DN yanked that off with a storyline style that could allow no such deviation--a betrayal of sorts, I felt to RPGing. If he betrayed (not too strong a word for what I felt then, and now) us, then I could commit heresy and "ignore" the party line somewhat. I did, I do, and here we are...

Then GDW went belly up, as if on cue, time froze at 1203-04...and those who remembered pressed on.
I found like minded folks, and we collaborated on the Tne list. But I suppose the party faithful felt Liam's ideas too radical, and being no fool, went elsewhere for a time. Here as a matter of fact.
Don't get me wrong, I still intend to finish what I am doing for TNE there, but I am moving onward again. Not standing still. t20 is the future of traveller at the moment. Seize the day. realize what you have in yer hands and in these boks, and run with it! See you at the finish line, someday!

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Reason Three, rather than trash all else that had gone before, I utilized all under the banner of Traveller prior to TNE as a canon resource (this gets me askew a few folks who remember the way IBIS suddenly appeared as IRIS in a cHallenge/ Dragon magazine issue.IIRC, It was a Challenge from my xeroxed sheets on em.

Your correct. IBIS was a late 70s/early 80s Dragon article that portray them as an Intel agency. The IRIS was a later two/three part article found in Challenge. These articles described thier job as clearing up Imperial succession.

The IRIS articles was the heresy that worked it's way into canon.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Reason Four, the initial view of the TNE was that PCs would have a better/ bigger impact on the universe around them, but then DN yanked that off with a storyline style that could allow no such deviation--a betrayal of sorts, I felt to RPGing. If he betrayed (not too strong a word for what I felt then, and now) us, then I could commit heresy and "ignore" the party line somewhat. I did, I do, and here we are...

Then GDW went belly up, as if on cue, time froze at 1203-04...and those who remembered pressed on.
I found like minded folks, and we collaborated on the Tne list. But I suppose the party faithful felt Liam's ideas too radical, and being no fool, went elsewhere for a time. Here as a matter of fact.
Don't get me wrong, I still intend to finish what I am doing for TNE there, but I am moving onward again. Not standing still. t20 is the future of traveller at the moment. Seize the day. realize what you have in yer hands and in these boks, and run with it! See you at the finish line, someday!

One question: What's your take on the Manifest Destiny document that describes Regency settlements into the Wilds?

I like it that it shows the Regency is ready and able to begin recontacting survivors of the Collapse and the bright the light of civilization.

Of course we still have MJD's M:1248 work in progress to review.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I believe somewhere between Peter Gray's version/ and Chris Griffens manifest destiny lies the answer . The Regency is prepared to come through, and the frontiers will open. Very wild west. Griffen and Gray differ on how dark things have been behind the Q-zone walls. MJD gets to set the pace on that, not I. And I shall await his project for that, on grounds of "we ain't there yet".

As for IBIS/ IRIS. We'll disgree agreeably as always.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
I believe somewhere between Peter Gray's version/ and Chris Griffens manifest destiny lies the answer . The Regency is prepared to come through, and the frontiers will open. Very wild west. Griffen and Gray differ on how dark things have been behind the Q-zone walls. MJD gets to set the pace on that, not I. And I shall await his project for that, on grounds of "we ain't there yet".

Is there an online source for Peter Gray's work? I would like to compare that with Regency Source and Manifest Destiny.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
As for IBIS/ IRIS. We'll disgree agreeably as always.

Quite True.

In time I believe you will understand and see the heresy of the articles and return to the true canon.

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by George Boyett:

Is there an online source for Peter Gray's work? I would like to compare that with Regency Source and Manifest Destiny.

A lot of his stuff is on the BARD pages.
http://www.downport.com/bard/
That and the TNE-List.

Shane

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
A lot of his stuff is on the BARD pages.
http://www.downport.com/bard/
That and the TNE-List.

Shane

Thanks. I took a quick look. Interesting reading, especially the Aslani war plans and Regency's counter-plans.

 

[shield]

Liam

Don't want to rain on your parade, but didn't the real strephon (ala arrival vengence) admit to knowing nothing about the IRIS, and it was a con

You can kick me later


Cheers
Richard

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Liam

Don't want to rain on your parade, but didn't the real strephon (ala arrival vengence) admit to knowing nothing about the IRIS, and it was a con

You can kick me later


Cheers
Richard

Your right! Strephon didn't believe them, as indicated in his journal entries of Survival Margin.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Liam

Don't want to rain on your parade, but didn't the real strephon (ala arrival vengence) admit to knowing nothing about the IRIS, and it was a con

You can kick me later


Cheers
Richard

_________________________________________________
A MWM "ask Avery" question if ever was!

As fer IBIS/IRIS, the Trav Bibliography ($8.00) on this E-store here at QL, sez:

Author: Charles E Gannon (author/ of the master work "Hard Times"
of IRIS.

1st Appearance: Challenge 33, 1988, pp53-58."IRIS"(6p) "Details and background" of this Imperial secret Agency.

2nd appearance: Challenge 34, 1988, pp35-38; 4 pages, diagrams, etc,
How to generate Secret agent MT-PCs for Rebellion era adventures. Charles E Gannon, author.

3rd appearance: Challenge 36, 1988, pp23-27, & 36. The Green Hills of Earth"
(6p), illus. incl.
"This adventure involves getting to Terra to prevent use of a bioagent that would de[populate the planet."
(uses stuff from 33 & 34 issues)-also by Charles E.gannon.

4th appearance:Challenge 50, "No Time to rest" (adventure), Robert N Sprinkle. pp14-19. Set in SM, PC agents must rescue kidnapped Baron & get him to a conference council on time. Incl deck plans of TL-13 200dt Yacht Venturi.

Survival margin TNS passages from 1121-1124. (the MT-rebellion era 2.0, as Mr T Foster puts it.)

Strangely, no mention of IBIS in the Bibliography, and it does have Other periodicals listed by FASA, Judges Guild, etc.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Strangely, no mention of IBIS in the Bibliography, and it does have Other periodicals listed by FASA, Judges Guild, etc.

Does it list any Traveller articles in Dragons? The editor may have never knew about them.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Strangely, no mention of IBIS in the Bibliography, and it does have Other periodicals listed by FASA, Judges Guild, etc.

Does it list any Traveller articles in Dragons? The editor may have never knew about them. </font>[/QUOTE]_______________________________________________
Doesn't mention White Dwarf or Dragon at all. If it appeared there, and was later put into JTAS, DGP, or MTJ its not listed.
Publisher is BITS of this periodical bibliography. So your side of your version of events still holds some water somewhere, as I recall seeing the same article fer IBIS.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RichardP:
Liam

Don't want to rain on your parade, but didn't the real strephon (ala arrival vengence) admit to knowing nothing about the IRIS, and it was a con

You can kick me later


Cheers
Richard

Your right! Strephon didn't believe them, as indicated in his journal entries of Survival Margin.</font>[/QUOTE]My interpretation from Survival Margin is that Strephon intentionally didn't meet with IRIS because he wanted to find a way "out" of the war after having seen the devastation.

Ron

 

[Liam Devlin]

I concur. If he refused to see them, they'd assume he had something to hide, and thus disqualify himself. And the "buffoons" would go away.(and they did).

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
I concur. If he refused to see them, they'd assume he had something to hide, and thus disqualify himself. And the "buffoons" would go away.(and they did).

1. Strephon thought it was a con because he never heard of them.

2. By the time they got to him, he was already feel guilty for not taking a firm hand earlier.

3. He didn't recognise thier authority as it violated the powers of the Moot. (IE. Strephon was a True Canonist

)

 

[shield]

Liam,

Yeah certainly strephon told the IRIS to take a hike (survial margin) but I think I remember an earlier quote from SM where strephon wonders who they are and why Lucan is co-operating with them, and concludes Lucan has no real idea who they are or if they are real.

But yeah there is a lot of IRIS stuff from the early challenges, and some adventures in the Hinterworlds with IRIS agents. I assume that they started as a regular agency, and during the strephon revisions - (real or fake) they got swept along. Remeber IK ranting about intelligency agencies thinking they could solve everything - Do I detect the heavy editorial hand of Dave N?

Cheers
Richard

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by George Boyett:

1. Strephon thought it was a con because he never heard of them.

2. By the time they got to him, he was already feel guilty for not taking a firm hand earlier.

3. He didn't recognise thier authority as it violated the powers of the Moot. (IE. Strephon was a True Canonist

)

_________________________________________________
Is your skepticism rooted in that the author wrote in Challenge and that Challenge is thus sub-canon/ semi canon?
Charles E Gannon, who headed up "Hard Times"-MT sourcebook is the author of all but one of those IRIS write ups, and adventures.
Ahh, to answer #1, the emperor who knew all kinds of things, didn't know about them. Strephon, as dulinor said, "was a man." And thus could not know "everything".
#2 is correct, he'd decided too much blood had been spilled and figured out he had to play along long enought to get "out" of the war as a faction leader. The Only leader to do so, as MJD pointed out. #3,He recognized their "power" because he had to refuse being seen by them. They took his refusal not as an authority issue, but as fait d'accompli he was a clone or robot-thus not the "true Strephon". He played the spooks for the fool, and they took it and ran with it. All else played out as he foresaw.
But Dulinor and Lucan continued on after each other-the war had taken a life of its own..and spiralled into the Black war, and hard Times.
Thus, Strephon is not as you conjecture.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Yeah certainly strephon told the IRIS to take a hike (survial margin) but I think I remember an earlier quote from SM where strephon wonders who they are and why Lucan is co-operating with them, and concludes Lucan has no real idea who they are or if they are real.

But yeah there is a lot of IRIS stuff from the early challenges, and some adventures in the Hinterworlds with IRIS agents. I assume that they started as a regular agency, and during the strephon revisions - (real or fake) they got swept along. Remeber IK ranting about intelligency agencies thinking they could solve everything - Do I detect the heavy editorial hand of Dave N?

------------------------------------------------
Strephon was not all knowing or infallible. And since the Moot was dissolved, and didn't attempt to tell Lucan where to get off, they took themselves out of any legal means to oppose him, thereby betraying the rest of the Imperium to factionalism.
In the second portion,
there is the T Foster hypothesis:
MT 1.0 (1116-1120) early rebellion war years.
MT 2.0 (1121-1125)
MT 3.0 (1126-1130)

There was no doubt behind the scenes arguments who would win the war, how such and such metaplot would play out, etc. Gannon's stuff worked in both 2.0, and 3.0.(Hard Times era).

And yes, the dissenting voice running throughout 2.0 to 3.0 was IK (DN's PC in the backrooms of MT?)ranting all was doomed, and unworthy even then. There, you scare me by being near prescient to the truth, which several participants aren't talking of even today.

heretically yours,

 

[kafka47]

Being a big fan of conspiracies. Maybe, IRIS was the conspiracy of nobles behind the facade of the official intelligence agencies. [FYI: The Rebellion Sourcebook incidently mentions the list of agencies operating within the Imperium. IBIS is there but I seem to rememeber that it was also mentioned in one of the Paranoia Press Sectors]

Maybe, the assassination triggered a long dormant project dating from the Civil War aimed at Damage Control and preventing another calamity. But, unfortunately, the small group of nobles that were in charge of the conspiracy were killed off in Lucan's purges of the Moot, so that could he alone reign in the organization. (maybe, even Lucan was a member)* Meanwhile, the existing operatives continued to activate sleeper agents. These sleeper agents, like every other institution was pressed into service by the faction leaders. Until the remenant could set up a base camp in the Easter subsector. From there they tried to figure out who they were and what they were about, aka Bourne Identity.

*We always assume that Lucan was merely a spoiled brat. Why not play him as a Mastermind who plays the role of the fool.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Being a big fan of conspiracies. Maybe, IRIS was the conspiracy of nobles behind the facade of the official intelligence agencies. [FYI: The Rebellion Sourcebook incidently mentions the list of agencies operating within the Imperium. IBIS is there but I seem to rememeber that it was also mentioned in one of the Paranoia Press Sectors]
-----------------------------------------------
Looking through MT-Rebellion SB at present, pp40-41, the Agencies..no IBIS, or IRIS mentioned in MT-1.0
IBIS was put out by paranoia press, along with SORAG, IIRC. But from CT to MT (OTU, it didn't make the cut it seems...
-------------------------------------------------
Maybe, the assassination triggered a long dormant project dating from the Civil War aimed at Damage Control and preventing another calamity. But, unfortunately, the small group of nobles that were in charge of the conspiracy were killed off in Lucan's purges of the Moot, so that could he alone reign in the organization. (maybe, even Lucan was a member)* Meanwhile, the existing operatives continued to activate sleeper agents. These sleeper agents, like every other institution was pressed into service by the faction leaders. Until the remenant could set up a base camp in the Easter subsector. From there they tried to figure out who they were and what they were about, aka Bourne Identity.
------------------------------------------------
Possible thesis there. Arbellatra's reign is the supposed beginnings of IRIS from C. E. Gannon's article in Challenge (Trav MT 2.0-3.0). I also like to think the head honchoes were wacked int he melees in Capital when Dulinor's attack went down...the regrouping at Easter makes sense, and then discovering their identity, set to find a decent claimant to the throne. ..
-------------------------------------------------
*We always assume that Lucan was merely a spoiled brat. Why not play him as a Mastermind who plays the role of the fool.

------------------------------------------------
Truly a heretical thought! (bows) and a novel twist to history! congrats kafka47!

hereticaly yours,

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
IBIS was put out by paranoia press, along with SORAG, IIRC.

I don't recall this. I suspect that they were from a Dragon article, and not even remotely canon.

As far as IRIS was concerned, they were clearly marked as a variant when they first appeared, that is, as non-canon. Gannon later made them canon, and, as we know Nilsen removed them.

My interpretation of the Strephon stuff is that:
(a) Strephon thought they were fakes;
(b) He used them to get himself out of the war by convincing people that he was a fake.

There is no contradiction between the two.

Personally, I despised IRIS. I couldn't even force myself to completely read the original articles!

They were obnoxious on many levels. Firstly, the whole "psionic super-spy" thing is just plain old munchkin fodder. Secondly, the background as it was given was complete hogwash.

Leaving aside the 500 year old conspiracy that didn't go astray, the whole idea of this "middle-class" agency goes across the grain of the Imperium. There is no way in the universe Arbellatra, or any of her circle, would have gone along with this kind of thing. Letting nobodies decide who gets to be Emperor? You've got to be kidding! This is the sole prerogative of the nobility (especially the Admirals).

In any case, why would the nobility pay the slightest attention to them when the succession is in dispute? No one has heard of them, and they are nobodies anyway!

*They can't actually do their supposed job!*

I'm willing to believe that there may well have been some kind of psionic "palace eunuchs" hanging about, but I am not willing to accept that they would be entrusted with control over the succession, or that they would be the kind of munchkin legion they were portrayed as.

Alan