High Passengers Baggage Allotments

[Peter Newman]

In most versions of Traveller a High Passenger gets 1 dt. of cargo space. A High Passenger can bump a mid passenger. Therefore a starship can't be sure how many High Passengers they will have until right before liftoff (Unless bumping rights are time limited, and I'm not aware of any canonical statements that they are). Therefore starships (that carry passengers) will need to leave several tons of cargo space empty for the hypothetical baggage of their hypothetical high passengers. Therefore they can't fill their cargo areas. Therefore either they will be even less profitable than ever, or we need to have some way for ships to pick up freight or cargo at the last moment
(even though most rules say that it usually takes most of a week to find cargo or freight under normal circumstances.

Thoughts?


[1] Except maybe if they don't have a Steward. Since High Passage requires steward service maybe a ship without one could get out of taking High Passengers. "I'm sorry Sir, we don't provide that level of service." Of course if the High Passenger demands a Steward maybe that's what the gun bunny becomes, despite having no appropriate skills.

 

[HG_B]

Thoughts?

Ignore rules that defy common sense.

 

[rancke]

I interpret High, Middle, and Low Passages as vouchers that can be exchanged for tickets; the issuing organization will then redeem them for the actual cost of the ticket. A Priority Passage Voucher, or "High Passage" as it's usually known as, was originally intended for getting high Imperial officials traveling on official business to their destination as fast and as efficiently as possible. That is why they can bump other passengers and demand baggage space. There is a high-powered Imperial Edict behind it. (People who "upgrade" middle passages, OTOH, do so by bribing the steward, who will, of course, in order to avoid any fuss, inform the next 'bumpee' that he is being bumped by the high passenger).

Over time this purpose became somewhat diluted, and by the Classic Era they are issued to people quite far down the organisatorial 'food chains' and freely traded outside the organizations. People who are planning to use them to pay for a jump-1 or jump-2 ticket will often try to sell them to someone planning to make a jump-3 or higher trip.

Here's a sample Priority Passage Voucher. There are several others in the neighboring files.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=678


Hans

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

understand that high passenger bumping a mid passagenger is not a legal right of the HP.

rather, it is the legal right, by law or precedent, for a passenger carrying ship to change it's mind about carrying a passenger and sell his space to another person willing to pay more. Of coruse, the MP gets his money back (assuming he paid it before boarding. I'd say they might wait until on the ship or even at the destination). As no service has been rended and no money changed hands , thiers no case for a compliant.

now, if a HP turns up with a Dton of baggeage, and the ship has no more space for it. then the HP is either gonna have to travel without his baggage, or find another ship.

The ship owner is under no legal obilgation to carry anybody, so the HP can't demand transport. he can merey offer money, more so than the transport of the MP would get.

 

[rancke]

understand that high passenger bumping a mid passagenger is not a legal right of the HP.

How do you know that? AFAIK the rules don't give PC captains any option. Mind you, that could be a game artifact rather than a setting feature. I'm not saying that there's anything to prove that my suggestion is true. It's merely something that does work and does explain the game rule. You milage is definitely entitled to vary, but you're stating yours as a fact. Is there some canonical source for this that I've overlooked?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

How do you know that? AFAIK the rules don't give PC captains any option. Mind you, that could be a game artifact rather than a setting feature. I'm not saying that there's anything to prove that my suggestion is true. It's merely something that does work and does explain the game rule. You milage is definitely entitled to vary, but you're stating yours as a fact. Is there some canonical source for this that I've overlooked?


Hans

It says nowhere that there is anyone to "enforce" the option of "bumping".

 

[rancke]

It says nowhere that there is anyone to "enforce" the option of "bumping".

What does that prove? It would be like any other failure to comply with Imperial regulations. It says nowhere that there is anyone to enforce any of the regulations, and you can defy them on worlds without starport guards or planetary defenses, but it has consequences down the road.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

What does that prove? It would be like any other failure to comply with Imperial regulations. It says nowhere that there is anyone to enforce any of the regulations, and you can defy them on worlds without starport guards or planetary defenses, but it has consequences down the road.


Hans

?? Where, exactly, is it stated that it is an Imperial Reg?

 

[rancke]

?? Where, exactly, is it stated that it is an Imperial Reg?

Nowhere, and if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that I didn't claim it did.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Nowhere, and if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that I didn't claim it did.


Hans

ROFL! :rofl:

Rancke2 "It would be like any other failure to comply with Imperial regulations."

 

[Peter Newman]

It says nowhere that there is anyone to "enforce" the option of "bumping".

The Imperium has a legal system that includes contracts and their enforcement. Buying a ticket is a contract. We know that someone will enforce it, we just don't know the specific name of the agency that does so. CT says [Bk2 pg 4-5] is "middle passage is offered on a standby basis, in the event that not enough high passages are sold."
Therefore a mid passenger does not have the right to a stateroom if a high passenger bumps him. Therefore in CT it's a condition of middle passage that you can be bumped, rather than a condition of High Passage that you can bump.

I note also that CT defines a High Passengers baggage allowance as '1,000 kg' not as 1 displacement ton as I wrongly stated above. Since no restrictions on the volume of this 1,000 kg's are noted by the RAW a high passenger could show up with an inflated giant mylar balloon massing 950 kg's but taking up dozens (hundreds?, thousands?) of displacement tons and insist that it be taken as his baggage. Therefore things are even worse than I thought, and ships carrying High Passengers can't plan on taking any cargo or freight at all.

MT also gives High Passengers 1,000 kg. of baggage. Both also give Middle Passengers 100 kg. of baggage with no volume restrictions, so a Middle Passenger can bring in a 95 kg giant inflated mylar ballon. How many displacement tons will it occupy? Can any starship ever plan on taking any cargo, or do they have to leave it all empty for the last minute High Passenger with the balloon?

TNE has the same rules. [TNE p 218]

This seems unworkable.

 

[rancke]

Rancke2 "It would be like any other failure to comply with Imperial regulations."

It would be if my interpretation was correct.

I said that I interpreted passages as vouchers (Post #3). Xerses stated categorically that starship captain were not legally obligated to let high passengers aboard (#4). I challenged that (#5). Then you replied to me (#6).

Does that bring you up to speed?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

The Imperium has a legal system that includes contracts and their enforcement. Buying a ticket is a contract. We know that someone will enforce it, we just don't know the specific name of the agency that does so. CT says [Bk2 pg 4-5] is "middle passage is offered on a standby basis,

It is up to the owner, what the contract is, or isn't. Nowhere is it stated that ships have to offer this contract. That's obvious or ships couldn't predict cargo & passenger loads.

 

[Peter Newman]

It is up to the owner, what the contract is, or isn't. Nowhere is it stated that ships have to offer this contract. That's obvious or ships couldn't predict cargo & passenger loads.

Conversely nowhere is it stated that ships are allowed to _not_ offer this contract. The Imperium regulates travel quite extensively. The notion that a mere starship owner can blithely flout the standard imperial regulations that have been determined by the Emperor and his servants seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[rancke]

The Imperium has a legal system that includes contracts and their enforcement. Buying a ticket is a contract. We know that someone will enforce it, we just don't know the specific name of the agency that does so. CT says [Bk2 pg 4-5] is "middle passage is offered on a standby basis, in the event that not enough high passages are sold."
Therefore a mid passenger does not have the right to a stateroom if a high passenger bumps him. Therefore in CT it's a condition of middle passage that you can be bumped, rather than a condition of High Passage that you can bump.

Since I propose my voucher idea as an amendment to the rules, I don't mind that, but it really is six of one and half a dozen of the other. If high passengers have a right to bump middle passengers, middle passages would have to be sold subject to the condition that they may be bumped.


Hans

 

[travlar]

It is up to the owner, what the contract is, or isn't. Nowhere is it stated that ships have to offer this contract. That's obvious or ships couldn't predict cargo & passenger loads.

It also quite clearly states that the price is the same. If that's the case, than I would expect the contract to be the same as well. While the rules do not state that you must bump middle passengers, it doesn't say that you are allowed to not do so, either, and does seem to assume that the bumping will happen. In fact, it suggests it's so widespread that everyone does it.

 

[HG_B]

It also quite clearly states that the price is the same. If that's the case, than I would expect the contract to be the same as well. While the rules do not state that you must bump middle passengers, it doesn't say that you are allowed to not do so, either, and does seem to assume that the bumping will happen. In fact, it suggests it's so widespread that everyone does it.

Obviously unenforceable. All the Captain would have to say is that the Steward is sick. As I said, just ignore illogics in the system.

 

[Peter Newman]

Obviously unenforceable. All the Captain would have to say is that the Steward is sick. As I said, just ignore illogics in the system.

Why would you ever expect trade laws to be logical? The illogical rules are modeling illogical imperial regulations.

 

[far-trader]

I note also that CT defines a High Passengers baggage allowance as '1,000 kg' not as 1 displacement ton as I wrongly stated above. Since no restrictions on the volume of this 1,000 kg's are noted by the RAW a high passenger could show up with an inflated giant mylar balloon massing 950 kg's but taking up dozens (hundreds?, thousands?) of displacement tons and insist that it be taken as his baggage. Therefore things are even worse than I thought, and ships carrying High Passengers can't plan on taking any cargo or freight at all.

Actually no. In CT at least 1,000kg is 1ton is 1dton. In fact dton is not even mentioned specifically in ship design, only in the deckplan drawing notes, where it is very loosely defined.

Check the example in the Trade and Commerce section (pg 48 CT LBB 2) to see how one determines what makes up 1 ton of "firearms". In the example 1 ton is 1,000kg. And the only thing that makes sense is that the deckplan dton has to average 1,000kg. Modern shipping is similar in that container shipping (volume) is limited to total mass contained within for reasons of material strength. You ship in a container what will fit within it for both volume and mass limits. In CT (Traveller in general) those limits are 1dton and 1mton (1,000kg).

So the High Passage baggage allotment of 1,000kg is 1mton and 1dton and will require cargo hold space to be held if you advertise to take that level of passenger. In MTU at least a ship only advertising Middle Passage bookings can't be forced to provide High Passage (as in provide a Steward and fit 1ton of baggage in the hold). A High Passage ticket could still be used to bump a Middle Passenger on such a ship but the High Passenger would only have Middle Passage service (no Steward and 100kg of baggage).

Also for what it's worth to the discussion I read the High Passage baggage allotment of 1 ton as extra to the carry on (stored in the stateroom) which I make at 100kg. As in the Middle Passage baggage of 100kg is carry on only and fits within the stateroom, requiring no cargo space be set aside. And the 10kg for Low Passage fits within the Low Berth allotment.

This seems unworkable.

Not at all

At least I hope my explanation has shown that.

 

[rancke]

I really don't see the problem with having to give a high passenger 1 dT of baggage space. It's essentially the same problem as having full up with middle passengers and having to put one out of the ship. Assuming your cargo hold is full up and your passenger actually want to avail himself of his full baggage allowance, you juist have to unload a dT of freight.


Hans