High Passengers Baggage Allotments

[far-trader]

Obviously unenforceable. All the Captain would have to say is that the Steward is sick. As I said, just ignore illogics in the system.

Obviously not. Not unenforceable. Not illogical.

If the Captain advertised for High Passages it was on the understanding that he or she is able to provide that level of service.

If the Steward is sick someone else will have to cover for them (another crewperson - Steward 0 is a freebie, or a temp hire, even a working passage).

And that 1ton of cargo hold space will have to be provided as well, too bad if you already booked freight to fill it or have it filled with spec cargo. Make room or face loosing your commercial High Passage license.

If you have to renege on some freight bookings to make room for the High Passage baggage you may lose your commercial Freight license.

You might just have to choose which way to go. Or who to compensate out of your own pocket. Paying the High Passenger Cr1,000* (perhaps plus 10% for the inconvenience) to cover them sending their extra baggage on the next ship may work. Or maybe the shipper of some of that freight will be amenable to a similar deal (the 10% - on the whole freight lot mind you, pick the smallest - inconvenience kickback to not report you).

* which you make on the freight so that much is break-even for you

It's a golden role playing opportunity staring you in the face. Don't blink.

 

[jawillroy]

Assuming your cargo hold is full up and your passenger actually want to avail himself of his full baggage allowance, you juist have to unload a dT of freight.
Hans

Actually not necessarily that easy if it's paid freight, since those lots can't be broken up. If it's spec freight, it's the captain/owner's call of course.

I always figure it this way:
1) load speculative cargo
2) load high passengers (if cargo space is free)
3) load mid passengers (if staterooms are free)
4) load peoplesickles
5) if cargo space free and if cargo lots fit, load paid freight.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Conversely nowhere is it stated that ships are allowed to _not_ offer this contract. The Imperium regulates travel quite extensively. The notion that a mere starship owner can blithely flout the standard imperial regulations that have been determined by the Emperor and his servants seems highly unlikely to me.

okay, if we going to get invloved in that sort of RAW snottyness, show me, and quote me, the sentence in the CT core rulebook that says the players must check to see if thier are any passengers travelling to thier destination. I don't own CT, so i can't say for certian it's not thier, but i'm reasonably certian the wording is "may" or "can", both of which imply the option, not the obilgation, to take passengers.

ergo, if he is not under obilgation to take passengers, how can a HP demand passage?


on a non RAW note, any captain offering High Passage would almost certianly include terms and condictions to the effect of "if we can't take your baggage, we will offer a full refund", and a T &C for MP to the effect of "we reserve the right to sell your seat to a high paying customer, in which case your will be refunded."

I note also that CT defines a High Passengers baggage allowance as '1,000 kg' not as 1 displacement ton as I wrongly stated above. Since no restrictions on the volume of this 1,000 kg's are noted by the RAW a high passenger could show up with an inflated giant mylar balloon massing 950 kg's but taking up dozens (hundreds?, thousands?) of displacement tons and insist that it be taken as his baggage. Therefore things are even worse than I thought, and ships carrying High Passengers can't plan on taking any cargo or freight at all.

on the cargo thing. I only own MgT. In that, it situlates 1 Dton of baggage for High passage, but keeps the 100KG for a middle passage.

really though, it the any reason why the High passenger would not be asked to Deinflate his ballon?

 

[rancke]

Actually not necessarily that easy if it's paid freight, since those lots can't be broken up. If it's spec freight, it's the captain/owner's call of course.

Remember, I'm supposing that this rule is backed by an Imperial Edict[*]. That being so, the ship's captain can't be held responsible for the inconvenience to the owner of the freight being put off the ship. It's just bad luck. An Act of God in legal parlance. He will have to pay back the freight fee, of course. It's the price he pays for living under the benevolent protection of the Imperium.

[*] This is a proposal of mine, not a canonical fact. No claim that this is somehow stated anywhere in canon is to be inferred. I hope that's clear.​

However, it only becomes a problem when the high passenger actually wants to avail himself of his baggage allowance AND the ship is completely full up.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I always figure it this way:
1) load speculative cargo
2) load high passengers (if cargo space is free)
3) load mid passengers (if staterooms are free)
4) load peoplesickles
5) if cargo space free and if cargo lots fit, load paid freight.

Interesting, I like to break it up over the week and permit early departure if the Captain feels they have enough. Or they can hang around longer but have to scrub all booked passengers and freight at the end of the week and start again. Free-Traders only mind you. Subbies and such have a schedule they have to stick to.

So I figure it as:

1) book and board passengers through the week
2.1) book and load freight through the week
2.2) it is advisable to reserve space for High Passage baggage if carrying
3) buy and load speculative cargo when found subject to 2.2 above
4) announce imminent departure and last call for business
5.1) shuffle passengers for last minute High Passage bumps
5.2) shuffle booked freight if necessary for last minute High Passage bumps
5.3) load last minute (Incidental) freight if there is room

 

[far-trader]

on the cargo thing. I only own MgT. In that, it stipulates 1 Dton of baggage for High passage, but keeps the 100KG for a middle passage.

Check my post end of previous page for the explanation of this if you missed it.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Check my post end of previous page for the explanation of this if you missed it.

no, I'm aware that CT says "1000Kg", not "1 Dton".

I just feel like pointing out that when talking about a setting common to multiple game systems, not every system handles things the same.

edit: no, i did miss that post. but still, the point remians that if we are going to enguage in RAW debates over specific wordings, then we must account for the fact that not everyone has the same set of rules and the same wording.

 

[far-trader]

no, I'm aware that CT says "1000Kg", not "1 Dton".

No, you misunderstand me, or I you

I'm not arguing one RAW over another, I'm confirming that CT intends 1,000kg = 1dton which matches MgT stating the baggage allowance as 1dton.

What's more, knowing that it is 1dton = 1,000kg, players can figure out how much gear they can take along when they book a high passage since most gear is listed as kg and not m3 or dtons

 

[McPerth]

In most versions of Traveller a High Passenger gets 1 dt. of cargo space. A High Passenger can bump a mid passenger. Therefore a starship can't be sure how many High Passengers they will have until right before liftoff (Unless bumping rights are time limited, and I'm not aware of any canonical statements that they are). Therefore starships (that carry passengers) will need to leave several tons of cargo space empty for the hypothetical baggage of their hypothetical high passengers. Therefore they can't fill their cargo areas. Therefore either they will be even less profitable than ever, or we need to have some way for ships to pick up freight or cargo at the last moment
(even though most rules say that it usually takes most of a week to find cargo or freight under normal circumstances.

Thoughts?


[1] Except maybe if they don't have a Steward. Since High Passage requires steward service maybe a ship without one could get out of taking High Passengers. "I'm sorry Sir, we don't provide that level of service." Of course if the High Passenger demands a Steward maybe that's what the gun bunny becomes, despite having no appropriate skills.

I've allways thought that this dton was already counted in the 4 dton for an stateroom, and not carried in the cargo hold, so cargo and passengers were independent (my interpretation only, not supported by rules).

Of course, one can argue then that why middle passengers have its baggage alowance so reduced.

One thing to have into account when talking about middle passengers that is not clear (at least to me) in cannon is if they require a full stateroom.

I don't know if it can be considered cannon, but in Alien Realms (CT), in one of the Vargr adventures, it's assumed that middle passengers share staterooms (without that detail, the adventure has no sense).

Of course, that's in Vargr space, and it's not known for strict regulations, and even less for strict comply with them...

Ignore rules that defy common sense.

That's another solution, of course, and one that will give you less headaches.

 

[gammamutant]

I've allways thought that this dton was already counted in the 4 dton for an stateroom, and not carried in the cargo hold, so cargo and passengers were independent (my interpretation only, not supported by rules).

Of course, one can argue then that why middle passengers have its baggage alowance so reduced.
.

I think the allowed cargo is reduced because the crew needs to load said cargo and a middle passenger hasn't paid enough to justify the time. If above mentioned HP or MP wants to share their room with a horde of Mylar balloons, they are more than welcome, but the ship's cargo hold is for cargo. Luggage goes in the storage area of the stateroom.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I've never thought that High passangers were worth the price. Lets see.

Need 5 dton per passanger, stateroom and cargo, for 10,000 income and 2,000 costs. And a Steward (best cost per 8 highs). 2dton staeroom (small one) and 2,000 + 250 costs.

8 High is:
42 dton
Costs 18,250
Income 80,000
income per ton 1470.

Middle is 4 dton per passanger and no steward, leaving 10 dton for frieght so:

8 Middle is:
42 dton
Cost 16,000
Income 64,000 passanger + 10,000 freight
income per ton 1380.

(and just for competness

8 Lows is:
42 dton
Cost 800
Income 8,000 passanger + 34,000 freight
income per ton is 980.)

So I was wrong, but for Cr 90 a ton do you really want he hassel?

The tangables for High passage is another crew member, and the intangables are more roleplaying opertunities.
Best regards,

Ewan

P.S. and there is no reason to carry low passangers what so ever.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

O and I completly forgot the capital costs of passangers:

8 High is:
3.24 Mcr
or 76,190 cr per ton

8 Middle is:
3.2 Mcr
or 76,190 cr per ton

8 Low is:
0.4Mct
or 9,5238 cr per ton

all based on the 42 tons needed to ship the high passangers. So High Passge would take 162 jumps to break even against shipping freight.

Best regards,

Ewan

P.S. and you are just throwing your money away on low passangers

 

[shadowcat20]

Ok,

Just some things I used in my game that may help.

First Vouchers for High/med/Low were only redeamable at class A and B starports. At class C or lower it was up to the Ship Captain weather to take them or not.

Reason being at a class A or B you normally had a Highport where the passengers either walked abord or were shuttled there by port services. On lower starports the ship either had to land or send it's own shuttle to collect them and their cargo. Hence more cost to the ships captain. You then have the proper medical help to freeze and unthaw low passengers safely.

Also Most captains using lower ports may prefer cash to turning in and doing the paperwork and hanging around for for voucher redemption. Say someone trying to stay below the radar or running a skipped ship.

As for stowage. I always had the cabins contain the 100 KG of storage space. The other 900kg was in the cargo space or ships locker for weapons*.
Mid passengers stowed their stuff minus weapons in their cabin. High passage got extra room. By tradition in my game the space for passenger stowage was saved for personal investments by the crew. 1 day before shipping out the list was closed and any remaining space was used by the crew.

* I had a long standing tradition the other 100kg from that ton was used by the ships captain for his own cargo, or rented to a crew member. It could also be used to carry the extras a high passenger would get (Food, Drink, Ect)
Just some random ideas that my help,

 

[far-trader]

Ok,

Just some things I used in my game that may help.

<snip>

Good stuff there. Don't know why the Starport/Voucher tie-in idea never occurred to me, but that's nicked now! (Thank you for sharing )

 

[JustinInOz]

P.S. and you are just throwing your money away on low passangers

As far as your analysis goes, you are corrrect. The analysis stops short of one thing. Your assumptions are that you are always at full capacity.

There might not be enough high/middle passengers on offer. In which case, if there are low passengers on offer, better to be full, at a lower rate, than running partially empty.

 

[aramis]

I've not thought it to be a DT of cargo in many years, but my players often have. I've oft considered it to be 1000kg of baggage, taking roughly 1.4m³.

 

[samuelvss]

I have played it as up to a Dton and up to 1,000 kg; usually, if it is just baggage, it will just fit into the cabin, but sometimes it is used for speculative trade, household goods, etc. If the 1 dton is over 1,000 kg (which it Will be, unless its LHyd or bubble wrap), then the High Passenger can chooce to pay a proportionately discounted rate for the 1 dton (5,000 kg, he pays Cr 800), but he has that 1 dton reserved for him. The key here up to 1 dton of luggage will go, and not get "bumped," for a high passenger.

 

[far-trader]

I've not thought it to be a DT of cargo in many years, but my players often have. I've oft considered it to be 1000kg of baggage, taking roughly 1.4m³.

But honestly, why would the Captain care about the weight? The ship design systems don't (1) if you read them as dtons. Shipping costs don't if you read the commerce as dtons. Of course I'm convinced it is the same anyway either way so there's no difference. You're allowed 1000kg or 1dton, and the 1000kg has to fit within 1dton and the 1dton can't mass more than 1000kg

(1) though I'll argue they do and that dtons are an after-(incomplete)thought and the ship design "tons" are in fact mass and not volume

...of course I'm crazy There's no way I'd still be sane if I wasn't

 

[whartung]

As far as your analysis goes, you are corrrect. The analysis stops short of one thing. Your assumptions are that you are always at full capacity.

There might not be enough high/middle passengers on offer. In which case, if there are low passengers on offer, better to be full, at a lower rate, than running partially empty.

The Low passengers require exclusive facilities that can't be used for anything else, the mid/high passengers use the same staterooms. Heck, you can cram loose boxes and bags of goods in to an empty stateroom if you like.

E.D.'s point is simply that the Low passengers never pay off the expenses to create the facilities in the first place. Better to use the space as just cargo or higher margin staterooms and retain flexibility.

 

[JustinInOz]

In defence of Low Berths

I understand exactly what yourself and ED have said.

I am merely pointing out that one of the underlying assumptions, 100% filled capacity as the basis of making the value calculations, is false. Your insistance on this has made me look at the numbers.

If you are allocating tonnage to generate revenue, you need to be always as full as possible. Staterooms that are empty wont pay your ship mortgage. Stuffing a bit of cargo on top of the bunk wont pay your ship off. I posit that cargo modules won't fit into the space allocated to a stateroom. You are placing yourself at the mercy of the GM if you are breaking things open or relying on loose baggage.

For 1 stateroom you allocate 4 dTons. If you have many staterooms and the last one is sometimes full and sometimes empty, then you are in the place where it is economically detrimental to not have Low Berths.

For those same 4 dTons you get 8 low berth passengers. When they are full, which if you look at the availability tables, is almost always, you make 7200cr per jump. If you somethimes have the stateroom full and somethimes empty, then you make a fraction of 8000cr every jump. The fraction is much less if you sometimes have no high and have to have middle. Middle maxes out at 6000cr.

The capital costs, per dTon for Low Berths are 80% of the costs of staterooms. If they are consistently full Low Berths repay themselves in 55.6 jumps. 64.5 jumps if you assumme that you could have been carrying freight in the same space.

The analysis of 8 high to 8 mid to 8 low is not appropriate when it puts in all the cargo space into the low berth calc. By doing that all it shows is that passengers pay more than cargo. If that is all you are saying then, it is true. A fully loaded ship with passengers will always earn more than a fully loaded ship with cargo.

But that is part of what the thread is about. It is showing that if the high passengers get cargo allocations, their value is degraded. I am not saying that you should be allocating much of your space to low berths. I am just saying that allocate the space to whatever will assure you of being full.