High Pop Industrial Agricultural Garden worlds?

[Tim]

On this site, https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Trade_classification/summaries, it gives some trade classification combinations that don't seem possible.

Garden worlds have untainted breathable atmospheres
Agricultural worlds can't be High Population (< billions) or Low population (>thousands)
Industrial worlds have to be High Population (> hundreds of millions)

Is this from Mongoose because in T5 and CT, Agricultural worlds and Industrial worlds are mutually exclusive by populaton, and Garden worlds can't be Industrial worlds by atmosphere.

Ag Ga Hi In

World is a high-population, agricultural garden world with a near-ideal, utopian environment conducive to most sophonts and a billion or more sophonts in population size and a well-established industrial sector. As an agricultural world, this world is a near-ideal environment for producing quality foodstuffs of plant, animal, and other forms. Quality foodstuffs are a major export commodity for this world. Its economy and population are rapidly growing and living conditions are expected to incrementally rise barring outside forces. This world's well-developed manufacturing and processing sectors are major business here. Manufactured goods are a major export item.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Looks like someone made a mistake to me.
As you say, the underlying requisites for the trade codes are in opposition.

The fun part is when you realized that agricultural worlds can have tainted atmospheres, but they can't be overly populated in order to leave enough habitat to devote to farming and husbandry for agricultural export. Having an untainted atmosphere is just a bonus.

Agricultural + Rich is certainly doable.
Industrial tends to be rather exclusive of most other trade codes, however.

 

[tjoneslo]

That summary table was build from the random sector data that existed before the efforts of the T5 second survey to apply the consistent rules from T5 to all the worlds in charted space. So yes, that table contains several "impossible" combinations. They are no longer used, but left there to inspire ideas.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So yes, that table contains several "impossible" combinations. They are no longer used, but left there to inspire ideas.

"Views on shape of planet differ."

The wiki is supposed to be a repository of FACTUAL information ... not fanciful whimsy that is obviously incorrect on its face.

 

[Condottiere]

You can industrialize agriculture.

High population is tougher, either it's in orbit, reverse Elysium, or underground.

 

[tjoneslo]

The wiki is supposed to be a repository of FACTUAL information ... not fanciful whimsy that is obviously incorrect on its face.

Not all of the early versions of Traveller were clear this wasn't possible. And several people wrote sector generators incorporating their house rules. Which ended up, through a long sequence of being copied around without review, on Traveller Map and the Wiki. When Marc published the T5 rules and decided the combination wasn't possible (thus violating his own MOARN rules) there was left a broken legacy. So now we're waiting for someone at some time to review and fix the underlying data.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Referee fiat. It's even RAW:

LBB3'77, p8:
At times, the referee (or the players) will find combinations of features which may seem contradictory or unreasonable. Common sense should rule in such cases; either the players or referee will generate a rationale which explains the situation, or an alternative description should be made.
Finally, the referee should always feel free to impose worlds which have been deliberately (rather than randomly) generated. Often such planets will be devised specifically to reward or torment players.

 

[Ulsyus]

You can industrialize agriculture.

Why not? Many-layered hydroponic beds, stretching several stories high, makers turning out printed meat products, none of that seems outlandish at a higher TL. We use the term and methods of industrialised farming today: imagine how much more effective it could be at TL 12 or above?

 

[kilemall]

Why not? Many-layered hydroponic beds, stretching several stories high, makers turning out printed meat products, none of that seems outlandish at a higher TL. We use the term and methods of industrialised farming today: imagine how much more effective it could be at TL 12 or above?

Sure, I would assume so for space habitat particularly.

That is not the same as an Ag trade code though, indicating surplus and desirable industrial needs like farm machinery. The high tech stuff may be doable and take the edge of needs, but would have a scale of production cost that would limit export.

 

[whartung]

The high tech stuff may be doable and take the edge of needs, but would have a scale of production cost that would limit export.

There's definitely some truth to this.

Consider the specific example of, say, ornamental plant (like daisies).

In Scandinavian countries they have very sophisticated greenhouses with automated machinery to help manage and harvest them.

Here, we have green houses, but with raised tables, and temperature controls (mostly through venting), etc.

Finally, you have Central America, where they just stick it in the ground.

There's a scale of land efficiency, labor efficiency, etc. going on here. There's also other demographics. For example, in Guatemala, not only are their workers who are willing to work, they also happen to be shorter, so working the fields directly is less impactful on them. It's also a self-maintained climate for the plants. Land is quite expensive, and the seasons short, and labor high in Scandinavia, so they use much more sophisticated production.

But, a key note, these are all competitive with each other. There's production efficiencies with the higher tech methods, even though they are more expensive. But none of them sway the market to inefficiency so much as to abandon completely one technique over the others. Guatemala has some high operation costs for a US grower, shipping for one.

So, don't necessarily rule out that there can be a high tech vertical farming world profitably making product and competing with a fertile, T-shirt world using conventional methods. The high tech world may well be subsector closer, for example. All of these things work to balance the marketing equations. The game, however, is much to simple to model this well.

 

[Krikkitone]

I think that a typical “vertical farming” type world would do that if Land was at a premium. Land at a premium probably means a high population, so they probably won’t be exporting as much as a world that produces the same amount with only a moderate population.

Also the moderate pop Ag world is still potentially using very high tech (autoharvesters, fertilizer target drones, nanopesticides) etc. But they are probably very land intensive on standard Ag worlds.

 

[atpollard]

That is not the same as an Ag trade code though, indicating surplus and desirable industrial needs like farm machinery.

Don't loose sight of the other impact of Trade Codes ... Vertical Farming does not need to IMPORT large Harvesting Combines (as the Ag Code would imply when applied to the Trade Table.)

 

[mike wightman]

This is another example of where TL should rear its ugly head.

A TL9+ high population world will have access to whatever industry and whatever agriculture it require,

Robotic manufactories, robotic vertical farms, space based robotic resource extraction

Garden world for occupants.

 

[Condottiere]

Three dimensions includes up and underground.

 

[Krikkitone]

This is another example of where TL should rear its ugly head.

A TL9+ high population world will have access to whatever industry and whatever agriculture it require,

Robotic manufactories, robotic vertical farms, space based robotic resource extraction

Garden world for occupants.

Have access to =\= produce locally. TL,pop 9+ starport X world would produce everything locally. A TL,pop 9+ starport B world is going to be importing (and exporting) a whole lot (because it’s cheaper…hooray for outsourcing).
So a world can be
Ag: export food, import equipment
Ind: export goods/resources, import equipment
Hi pop:import everything

They can make robo combines for exporting their crops, but they will also import them… (and they will also import lots of crops that don’t grow locally)

 

[mike wightman]

TL9+

Climate controlled vertical farms can be set to grow anything from anywhere.

An Industrial world can make anything and then you do not have interstellar transport surcharge.

Where does the population of the high pop world get their wealth from to imp[ort everything?

 

[kilemall]

TL9+

Climate controlled vertical farms can be set to grow anything from anywhere.

An Industrial world can make anything and then you do not have interstellar transport surcharge.

Where does the population of the high pop world get their wealth from to imp[ort everything?

If it’s a high pop world it may not be IND but it is defacto not NI. So answers the question of wealth, may not be massive production export but enough to trade with NI worlds.

Still can be a demand for Ag imports- unique tastes or culturally/seasonal demand, high wealth individuals paying for ‘real’ organic, prestige items for status and social gatherings.

 

[Condottiere]

A wild boar from Terra being a delicacy.

 

[Condottiere]

And Spam.

 

[atpollard]

Ahhh, Synthetic Food.

LOOKS like this:

... and TASTES like this:

[FYI ... that Hamburger is NOT MEAT.]