Marcatlas
SOC-12
Ah, I see. Interesting
High Pop Industrial Agricultural Garden worlds?
- Thread starter Tim
- Start date
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Industrialized agriculture.
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Nope. Our Pop 8 is too high for Ag, but too low for Ind. Also, our Atm 6 precludes Ind.
We do qualify for Rich, however. And China or India might qualify for Ind, depending on where you decide to test their atmospheres for taint.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
I'm not taking about what the codes state but what logic dictates. E.g. being stupid and polluting the atmosphere wouldn't be a prereq for being industrial.
Which actually points to something interesting …
If the whole USA looked like Iowa or Kansas, we would have a POP closer to that of an AG world.
If the whole USA looked like Pennsylvania or New Jersey, we would have a POP closer to that of an IND world (and probably a tainted atmosphere).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
So the USA becomes a balkanised world...
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Spoiler alert: ... the USA is balkanized ... that's why there are "big states and small states" along with chromatic divisions between them.
And some states are perpetually flirting with secession from the union due to "you're not the boss of me!" arrogance born of parochialism.
King Midas
SOC-8
You are probably right, but my first thought was allergens. To me, it's astonishing that so few planets don't have some plant that causes severe reaction to humans. I know that at some moderate tech level immunization would be trivial*, but "Sometimes that doesn't work."
*I'm on Cottman IV, downwind from a patch of Ghostwind poppies. Nice breeze.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It's not really balkanized yet. There's still a nominally-legitmate central (Federal) government.
I mean, I can see how it could happen around several issues and several states or groups of states, but it hasn't actually gone that far. Further discussion risks busting the forum rules on politics, so I'll just leave it here. Fair point to raise, though.
Not getting into politics, but just the structure of the US Constitution (Government Type) ... the US is a FEDERATION of States under the US Constitution ... so there is a very real sense in which it is a central government comprised of representatives of 50 Local Governments (the definition of "Balkanized") that get together to argue about what should be done.
Spinward Flow chose an insightful word ... "parochialism". That is not about "political views", but about "a strong sense of LOCAL IDENTITY". That has application to worlds in Traveller (including relations between worlds within a subsector).
Krikkitone
SOC-12
Balkanized is not a bunch of local governments that argue about what the central government should do (US). Balkanized is a bunch of local governments that threaten each other with what to do… ie The Americas are Balkanized, USA is not. Balkanized worlds may have something like a UN, a place for the strong countries to tell the weak ones the way things are going to be (when the strong countries agree)
Once the Central government has an army bigger than any local governments, and it uses it without significant resistance then you are Definitely not Balkanized. If the “central government” can only advise (UN) and strong “local governments”(US, China, etc.) do whatever they want. Then its Balkanized.
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Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Wait.
I said something useful?
I apologize and will attempt to prevent it from happening again!
I would not say most of them, though that's true for some (as both given here, Agricultural and Rich)
All industrial worlds are High Pop too, and can be Poor, Vacuum, Asteroid, Water, Fluid, and many others
I'd say mostly from services, as most high density population zones are today in Real World...
Also, I guess most High Pop worlds have a good degree of industrialization, even if not considered Industrial as per trade code, and are probably self suficient in food production , though probably agricultural products are in high demand for variety and as luxury products. Hydroponics and recicling would be, again I guess, enough as to avoid mass starvation of the population, but variety and quality of food may suffer.
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Krikkitone
SOC-12
I think the “Ind” trade code is partly a way to explain that Hi pop world in a bad atm. Basically “why do 40 billion people live in a corrosive atm/vacuum/etc.?”. The answer is, thats where the jobs are…there’s a massive amount of infrastructure sitting there with a ready dumping ground for waste,..and it becomes self perpetuating.
It may extend beyond a mere "dumping ground". Let's take some more modern industries like "Semi-conductors" and "Electric Vehicles/Photovoltaics". Many of the steps in the manufacturing process involve things like "acid etching" or "chemical catalysts" that are very "NOT ECO FRIENDLY". While it is certainly possible to create a closed environment that recycles these dangerous chemicals, a planet in which these compounds could be inexpensively extracted from an atmosphere or lake that naturally contained lethal concentrations of sulfuric acid or ammonium hydroxide or lithium compounds would have a REAL economic advantage in large scale industrial process that used those compounds.
However, you are correct that there are 40 billion people there because THAT is where the jobs are. Same reason people still leave small towns for expensive, crowded cities.
Depending on the year and the weather that day ... that could almost describe Los Angeles or New York or Tokyo during a smog alert day.
While "I" might not disagree, "THEY" would resent your description of them as "weird".
On a serious note, My great grandparents died from the breathing conditions in Manchester, England where the family of Welsh Master Blacksmiths moved to work in the Armaments Factories in the late 1800's. People living in deadly tainted atmospheres was once a daily reality. I suspect that if I knew more about industry in places like India and China and the Third World ... it is still a reality in some places.Depending on the year and the weather that day ... that could almost describe Los Angeles or New York or Tokyo during a smog alert day.
While "I" might not disagree, "THEY" would resent your description of them as "weird".
My only point is that nothing that has been a historic reality can be "inconceivable".
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