Highly Abstract Squadron Design & Combat

[flykiller]

...but in fact, what you, Flykiller, and Ptah are headed at is more or less a USP applied to squadrons instead of singleships. Which is generally not where I want to go. I'm trying to generalize away from that.

then a single number for offense and another for defense should be sufficient. but at that level of generalization the only thing travelleresque about the game might be the artwork. squad leader counters on a terrain board or starship squadrons on a star field, not much difference.

what's your gameboard? strategic hexmap showing star systems, supplemented by tactical hexmaps for each individual star system?

point system:
1 point to set up a squadron
1 point for each maneuver factor, 6 max
1 point for each jump factor, 6 max
1 point for each offensive factor, no limit
1 point for each defensive factor, no limit

20 points, raider squadron
1 point to create
3 points for admiral
3 points for maneuver
5 points for jump
4 points for offense
2 points for weapons range
2 points for defense

40 points, monitor squadron
1 point to create
1 point for maneuver
0 points for jump
17 points for offense
4 points for weapons range
17 points for defense

20 points, supply squadron
1 point to create
2 points for maneuver
4 points for jump
1 point for offense
2 points for defense
10 points of supply factors
(get some convoy action going)

etc

 

[flykiller]

'curs to me that you'll need some double-blind features here too. squad leader had mystery counters that covered real ones, you couldn't tell what was under that '?' counter until you hit it or it did something. might be useful in a game like this. "there's twenty counters over there in that system. a squadron, all blanks, half of each? don't know." maybe buy some at the beginning of the game, also each side accumulates one more each turn to do with as they please to simulate aging information.

 

[flykiller]

point system:
1 point for each hex of sensor range
(coming in sensor range gets rid of '?' counters)

20 points, scout squadron
1 point to create
6 points maneuver
4 points jump
1 point for offense
1 point for defense
7 points sensor range

etc

 

[flykiller]

point system:
1 point to set up a squadron
jump
1 point for jump 1
3 points for jump 2
5 points for jump 3
etc, 6 max
maneuver
1 point for maneuver 1
3 points for maneuver 2
5 points for maneuver 3
etc, 6 max
1 point for each offensive factor, no limit
1 point for each offensive factor hex range
(weapons range cannot exceed sensor range)
1 point for each hex of sensor range, no limit
1 point for each defensive factor, no limit

etc

 

[flykiller]

hits

offensive hits dealt to a squadron remove an equal number of points from its capability factors. e.g. 3 points damage applied to the maneuver capability of a maneuver factor 2 squadron reduces it to maneuver factor 0. defense factors must be eliminated before damage may accrue to squadron capability factors.

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

Does cost (in Cr) come into play here?

 

[flykiller]

you mean with what I've posted? the points it costs could be thought of as including whatever it takes to produce the squadrons in question. I suppose money would be the major component.

not quite sure how to account for tech level though. perhaps altered point costs for certain components such as jump and maneuver and defense, reflecting larger and more costly power plants and armor at tech levels below 15.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by robject:
...but in fact, what you, Flykiller, and Ptah are headed at is more or less a USP applied to squadrons instead of singleships. Which is generally not where I want to go. I'm trying to generalize away from that.

How one might adapt/extend the USP to represent squadrons could well be a profitable (and new) topic altogether.

I see what your saying, you really want a simple very high-level approach. Simple attack-defense-move kind of stuff. I think the way then to include the fighters, etc. and spinal concepts, is to make some assumptions about effectiveness against a "standard" squadron that may includesa a balanced system. This is of course for generating the stats from actual ships. If you just want squadron performance, exactly what's in the squadron is below the level of resolution of the system.

It does add a lot of complexity to now track weapon types versus defense types, or have different types of attack ratings, in essence we are working back to a USP as you noticed.

 

[Ptah]

Good stuff flykiller, maybe at higher TL you just get more points for the same cost / size squadron.

 

[avi.hecht]

I think there are two problems in the excellent discussion above.
A. To get 'meaningful' results from the simulation you have to fix the rules – in other threads (I think the system defence one) people noted that in different versions of Traveller fighters are less or more significant. The simulation of a single ship combat will strongly affect the attempt to simulate a squadron.
B. To loose the distinction between weapon systems will loos a big chunk of Traveller feel, but more importantly it will loos, IMO, the simulation value. In other, historical, war games you usually get away from distinct weapon types only when the units are considered homogeneous (in WWII and later simulations it is usually Divisions and above). I do not think the standard Traveller order of battle (whatever that is) is big enough to get away from distinguishing the affects of fighters, Beam/particle weapons and missile weapons.

Big Warning – my experience is with Historical/Modern war simulations and war games –no experience what so ever with Traveller Space combat.

 

[Scott Martin]

Originally posted by Ptah:
I see what your saying, you really want a simple very high-level approach. Simple attack-defense-move kind of stuff. I think the way then to include the fighters, etc. and spinal concepts, is to make some assumptions about effectiveness against a "standard" squadron that may includesa a balanced system. This is of course for generating the stats from actual ships. If you just want squadron performance, exactly what's in the squadron is below the level of resolution of the system.

It does add a lot of complexity to now track weapon types versus defense types, or have different types of attack ratings, in essence we are working back to a USP as you noticed.

Rock Paper Scissors anyone? Spinal mounts are ineffective against fighter squadrons, turrets are pretty useless against cap ships.

Why build escorts in this system, since *all* weapon types will be effective against them? (noting that there weren't a lot of ships between 200 dT and 1,000 dT in TCS games I was involved in...)

You're also going to have major problems with defence ratings: a TL-11 ship with a high defence rating is effectively defenceless against a TL-12 "Kill-o-Zap" meson armed ship.

<lowers comfy rock back over head>

Scott Martin

 

[The Oz]

How's this for some quick-and-dirty squadron-level combat rules?

Squadron ratings for TRAVELLER

Squadrons are rated for their Jump ability, Attack, and Defense.

Basing squadrons on HG ships.

The squadron Jump rating is equal to the Jump drive rating.

If the ships have meson guns, the Attack rating is based on the number and size of meson guns in the squadron.
</font>

• Meson spinals of A-J are 0.5 Attack points each.</font>
• Meson spinals of K+ are 1.0 Attack points each.</font>

If the ships do not have meson guns, the Attack rating is based on the percentage of missile bays or missile turrets. If less than 33% of the possible hardpoints are taken up by missile weapons the Attack rating is zero, if 33% or more of the hardpoints are used for missiles the Attack rating is 1, and if 67% or more of the possible hardpoints are taken up with missile weapons, the Attack rating is 2.

The defense rating is based on the size of the ships: every 200,000 tons of capital ship displacement in the squadron gets one Defense point. There is a minimum of 0.5 Defense point for every capital ship hull, regardless of the total tonnage. To keep squadrons to a reasonable size, the maximum number of capital ships in one squadron is 8, and the maximum possible Defense rating is 10. Round all ratings down.

Ships that lack defenses will have modifiers that affect their performance in combat. These modifiers affect the combat die roll and are cumulative. This modifier is shown in parentheses next to the Defense rating, like this 8(-2)
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Condition Modifier
Agility 2- -2
Agility 4- -1
Armor 3- -3
Armor 10- -2
Armor 13- -1
Nuke damper 3- -2
Nuke damper 6- -1
Meson screen 3- -2
Meson screen 6- -1
Computer 3- -2
Computer 6- -1</pre>[/QUOTE]So, a squadron of 4 Tigress-class SDs would have ratings of:

Jump 4
Attack 4
Defense 10(0)

A squadron of eight Atlantic CRs would have:

Jump 4
Attack 8
Defense 4(-3)

Carried craft (battle riders) are rated separately from their tenders.

Combat resolution

Squadrons fire on opposing squadrons. Each player will take turns being attacked. The player under attack lines up his squadrons into a "line of battle" and a "reserve. "Every enemy squadron in the line of battle must be engaged by one friendly squadron before multiple squadrons may engage a single enemy squadron in the line of battle or engage an enemy squadron in reserve. All fire is simultaneous and all shots are resolved before any damage takes effect.

Squadrons roll a number of d6 equal to their Attack rating. If multiple squadrons are firing their Attack dice are added together. All of the Attack dice being fired at a single target squadron are rolled at once. The defending squadron then rolls a number of d6 equal to its Defense rating. Subtract any defense modifiers from every Defense die rolled. Each modified Defense die that is greater than or equal to an Attack die stops that Attack die from doing damage. Every Attack die that is not stopped does one point of damage to the defending squadron. Any Attack die that is a "6" and is not stopped does two points of damage to the defending squadron.

Squadrons may take damage equal to their Defense rating. When they take one more damage point than their Defense rating the squadron is destroyed. Each point of damage taken reduces the squadron's Jump, Attack and Defense ratings by one point.

Reserve

Squadrons in reserve may launch and recover carried craft, perform damage control and may Jump out of combat.

Carried craft may only be launched by squadrons in the reserve. All carried craft may be launched at once, and may immediately enter the line of battle. Carried craft that wish to be recovered must spend one turn in the reserve before being recovered. If they wish to be recovered tat turn they may not fire (if they do fire, they cannot be recovered that turn) and if they are fired upon and do not return fire (in their attempt to be recovered) they receive a -2 combat modifier to their Defense rolls in addition to any pre-existing combat modifiers.

Damage control is performed by rolling a number of d6 equal to the squadron's current Defense rating. Every roll of 5+ repairs one damage point.

Squadrons may jump out of combat from the reserve if they are not under attack by an enemy squadron that has penetrated the line, and if they have a current Jump rating of 1 or more. The squadron's current Jump rating determines how many parsecs the squadron may jump.

 

[flykiller]

Good stuff flykiller

yeah.

example of the main game board. movement is done by jump rating.

http://members.aol.com/flykiller/traveller/temp/j_map.gif

example of a system game board. movement is done by maneuver rating. the board is centered on the star, with the colored zone around it representing the star's 100d limit. the various points in the system are the planets in orbit around the star.

http://members.aol.com/flykiller/traveller/temp/system02.gif

some game counters. top left number is jump rating, top right is maneuver rating. bottom numbers are sensor rating, attack rating, attack range, and defense rating.

http://members.aol.com/flykiller/traveller/temp/game02.gif

 

[flykiller]

I do not think the standard Traveller order of battle (whatever that is) is big enough to get away from distinguishing the affects of fighters, Beam/particle weapons and missile weapons.

well, actually, the effects are the same - target ship features go off-line. a game system that utilizes both weapons power and weapons range seems OK for general abstract use.

 

[robject]

Flykiller and Oz's stuff is good -- I like Fly's system map, and of course I stole Oz's rules to begin with. And it's a good point about Traveller squadrons not being homogenous (at least some of the time).

However, my goal isn't tactical warfare; it's the simulation of entire wars. Seeing how the Rebellion works itself into exhaustion. Getting an idea of how the Barracks Emperors might have worked. Even trying to figure out just how the Vargr invasions took Corridor and worked their way into the Domain of Deneb. After all, if GDW could do it for the Interstellar Wars and the Fifth Frontier War, we should be able to do it for any era.

This could be Fleet Level rules, maybe. Perhaps I overstepped by taking it down to the squadron level, but I'm not quite convinced of that -- again, because games like Fifth Frontier War did just what I'm doing.

Granted, the rules might well be better than mine! I'm not known for covering all the bases.

 

[The Oz]

Have you given any thought to leadership at the squadron/fleet level?

What I've been thinking is to rate admirals for two characteristics: Fleet Tactics skill (how well they know the "nuts and bolts" of their trade) and Agressiveness.

When two admirals command fleets against each other they would roll d6 with Fleet Tactics skill as a modifier on this roll. Success would determine which admiral outsmarted the other. Then the Agressivness rating would determine the =degree= of the advantage gained/lost. More Agressive admirals would gain more advantage if they win the Tactics roll, but would also gain more disadvantage if they lose the roll.

Agressiveness might also be used to determine how =long= the battle lasts: less agressive admirals might break off combat more quickly than very agressive commanders.

 

[flykiller]

However, my goal isn't tactical warfare; it's the simulation of entire wars. Seeing how the Rebellion works itself into exhaustion.

oh.

then you'll need population morale and aggressiveness rules, resource rules, leadership rules, all leading to production rules. whoever produces the most combat materiel wins. with, I suppose, an occassional die roll to represent the occassional unexpected strategic combat result.

 

[mike wightman]

rob, have you ever seen the Fantasy Flight game Twilight Imperium?
You can get a free copy of the rulebook from their site:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ti3support.html

 

[mike wightman]

If you want to resolve things like the civil war, the rim war, and the rebellion, would a game board that starts at the subsector level work, rather than system level?

By the way OZ and flykiller, I like the stuff you've done here

 

[flykiller]

thinking on the fly. more later.

Abstract Tactical Starship Combat

Each side is allotted a certain number of points. These points represent money, shipyard space, national will, population, technological ability, and whatever else it takes to construct a starship navy.

The basic naval unit is the squadron. Squadron capabilities are built using points. It costs points to install drives, weapons, and other ship factors. Ship factors represent general capabilities without regard to means. A squadron with an attack factor of 10 may have a few spinal mounts or hundreds of missile batteries or thousands of fighters or a mix of all this. A squadron with a defense factor of 7 may have armor or screens or repulsor bays or a mix of all these.

Squadrons at lower tech levels cost more points to achieve the same results.

Point Costs

Assigning point costs involves many assumptions and thus may precipitate much argument. As Chairman Mao said, let a thousand flowers bloom, or as a Traveller fan may say, let a thousand tweaks be proposed. I'll prefer the dirt simple approach - one point per factor, with one extra point per tech level below 15. An alternative is proposed below.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">tech level - 15 14 13 12 11

jump factor - 2(n-1)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+1)+1 2(n+1)+1
maneuver factor - 2(n-1)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+1)+1 2(n+1)+1
sensor range - n n+1 n+2 n+3 n+4
attack factor - 2(n-1)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+1)+1 2(n+1)+1
attack range - 2(n-1)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+1)+1 2(n+1)+1
defense factor - 2(n-1)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+0)+1 2(n+1)+1 2(n+1)+1
supply factor - n ->
? counter - 1 -></pre>[/QUOTE]Factor Limits

Not all tech levels are equal in all things.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">tech level - 15 14 13 12 11

jump factor - 6 5 4 3 2
maneuver factor - 6 6 6 6 6
sensor range - 9 8 7 6 5
attack factor - (none)
attack range - (sensor range) (the owning ship's sensor range?)
defense factor - (none)
supply factor - (none)</pre>[/QUOTE]Turns

Each turn represents one day. Each turn consists of:
Side one moves, side two moves, nullified "?" counters removed, everyone fires, damage is applied.
Side two moves, side one moves, nullified "?" counters removed, everyone fires, damage is applied.
Conduct resupply/repair ops.
All ships in jump transit move one day forward towards their destination.
Acquire and place new "?" counters.

Tactical Movement

Done on the System Board. Each maneuver factor represents one hex of movement by a squadron during a movement phase. Each sensor factor represents one hex of sensor range.

Strategic Movement

Done on the Jump Board. Each jump factor represents one hex that may be transited by the squadron. Should it decide to jump a squadron (secretly) picks which System Board to which it will jump and also (secretly) the destination hex on that System Board. The squadron is then placed on the transit board. As each day turn passes the ship advances one space on the transit board. On the seventh day it appears on the specified hex on the specified System Board.