CT Only: Homeworld Enlistment

[Supplement Four]

Depends on the Force, too. The Imperial Marines, for example, has a huge pool of recruits from which to draw. This point was made up thread by a different poster (I forget who).

Everything comes down to economics, though, so I would guess that the cost of shipping people from high tech worlds will be balanced with the cost of training those from closer worlds of lower tech.

 

[Timerover51]

My experience with the military suggests so long as the trainee was screened to insure a basic level of education and intelligence, the military would force feed that training on him.
Look at World War 2 for example. Most Germans, and few Russians knew how to drive a vehicle. Fewer knew how to repair and maintain one. Yet, they were trained to do one or both by their militaries in wartime without too much difficulty.
I see no difference here. Repair combat armor? You get the crash course at 12 hours of instruction a day on it and if you flunk out it's off to some truly menial job somewhere awful.

Driving a truck is one thing, maintaining it is another. Both the Germans and the Russians had major problems with maintenance.

Naval nuclear power was essentially get your associate's degree in nuclear engineering in 6 months, then memorize a nuclear power plant in another 6 while running and maintaining it. Nobody in that program on the enlisted side would have known squat about nuclear power prior to entering the program.

Having had two brothers go through nuclear power school in the U.S. Navy and end up running nuclear reactors onboard submarines, I respectfully disagree with you.

Sure, maybe 1 in 20 from a TL 6 world screens to get that job repairing combat armor while 1 in 5 from some TL 14 world does, but that's how things roll. Doesn't mean the guy from the low tech world is incapable or incompetent, but rather that only the best are taken from there compared to the average or worse from higher tech worlds.

How many persons could you find in say, the Solomon Islands or Papua New Guinea in World War 2 or the present that could be taught in a very short crash course how to operate and program a computer? That is a much shorter Tech Level jump from TL 6 to 14.

 

[aramis]

A military force is quite unlikely to get sufficient funds to train recruits from low Tech Levels into higher Tech Level equipment. Training is extremely costly. Would you want to try training someone from Tech Level 6 on how to operate and maintain Tech Level 15 Combat Armor?

The US trained TL 1 volunteers for TL4 weapons with decent effect - Indian Scout units in the 1850 to 1890 periods. And many other Native tribes, while still TL 1-2, were easily able to make use of captured, stolen, or purchased weapons.

The UK takes still largely TL2-3 recruits for the Gurkha Regiment... which uses TL 7 gear, same as the majority of regiments of the "Royal Army"...

The low TL troops don't need to understand the machines - they just need to rote learn it. And higher tech can make that easier - if it's designed to.

Only the officers and mechanics need to be high TL. The troops just need to be able to use the "Magic sights" and get into and out of the "Magic Armor"...

After all, many insurgent groups make use of TL6 hardware (EG: AK-47, AKM) despite being from TL2-3 areas. Maintaining and repairing? Whole 'nother world...

Why? Training on the gear doesn't take much more time for the low-tech, if it's on par with the use of rifles. IR/LI sights aren't much harder.

And the ease of learning to shoot modern weapons - The AK-47, AK-74, SKS, M-16, AR-15, and M-1 Garand are easier (and safer) to shoot than the various percussion rifles; percussion firearms are easier than match or wheel locks. I can't see why the ACR would be harder to shoot. Harder to fix? yeah. Harder to troubleshoot? Probably, unless it has autodiagnostics.

 

[kilemall]

Driving a truck is one thing, maintaining it is another. Both the Germans and the Russians had major problems with maintenance.

Whereas the US as the heavily mechanized society had plenty of recruits already skilled and could more readily not only fix their vehicles, but captured vehicles. Some US divisions were driving more trucks then a full TO&E allotted them and burning more fuel.

Nonetheless the Russians and Germans certainly 'made do' and fielded vast forces despite their societal skill deficit.

As far as what the Imperium does, this gets into Imperial force policy. Is it TL15 Marines and locally generated colonial TL Army, big standard TL14-15 Army, big Army during war/crisis only, merc forces as tolerated local TL forces to be hired/dragooned in general conflict, etc?

Just going by the CT Army rolls, I'd definitely say whatever the mix of the polity represented, the Army expands and contracts quickly and is not large/standing in nature.

Having had two brothers go through nuclear power school in the U.S. Navy and end up running nuclear reactors onboard submarines, I respectfully disagree with you.

Knowing nukes myself, I'm not sure how you can quibble with his characterization. I would say they select for high INT and EDU in Traveller terms, but that gets us into sim chargen and I'm not sure the mechanics would have sufficient gameplay value to bother with beyond the EDU based stuff we already have.

How many persons could you find in say, the Solomon Islands or Papua New Guinea in World War 2 or the present that could be taught in a very short crash course how to operate and program a computer? That is a much shorter Tech Level jump from TL 6 to 14.

It would be a shock, and an argument for my take on tasks, especially a harsh penalty for no skill in doing something.

That would obtain also for say a city planet where very few people drive private vehicles, even high tech gravitic, and therefore the character has no vehicle skills. Or guns are outlawed, maybe there should not be a Gun-0 for those homeworld people.

I think the whole thing can help create interesting characters and flavor of the sense of worlds and people different from ours, but can get into the weeds pretty quickly if it gets too far into sim.

 

[aramis]

It would be a shock, and an argument for my take on tasks, especially a harsh penalty for no skill in doing something.

It's worth noting that crank powered computers have been given to many african schools, and the kids are programming them... a few of them are actually selling apps. No running water, but cellular internet and hand-cranked battery charge on cheap linux machines.

it helps that the programming manuals are installed in the OS ROM.

 

[Ulsyus]

Sure, maybe 1 in 20 from a TL 6 world screens to get that job repairing combat armor while 1 in 5 from some TL 14 world does, but that's how things roll. Doesn't mean the guy from the low tech world is incapable or incompetent, but rather that only the best are taken from there compared to the average or worse from higher tech worlds.

That's about it: screening and selection. If recruiters are offering what appears to be a sufficiently good bounty or payment on recruiting, and it was advertised, they'd get plenty of applicants.

My experience in different hemispheres over the last decade has been that when residents of lower-tech societies are presented with an opportunity that has arisen as a result of the presence of a higher-tech society, which generally means better remuneration than they can find domestically, they jump at it.

 

[Brandon C]

Again, this is why tech levels between worlds should be more balanced.

 

[Supplement Four]

Again, this is why tech levels between worlds should be more balanced.

There's also tech level bleed to consider.

For example, Pysadi is a TL 4 world with a tainted atmo that sports a Class C Starport.

Starports must have minimum TL. A Starport cannot be TL 4. And, that higher TL of the Starport must bleed over into the community.

Plus, ships with high tech cargoes may leave higher tech devices behind.



The old DGP CT books, Grand Census/Survey, suggested minimum TL s for Starports (I think TL 8 is the minimum, but I don't recall for sure), but beyond that, the DGP books rated worlds in different classifications for TL.

For example, a Water World may have very low tech ground vehicle TL, much lower than the world TL. Yet, it may have high TL in water vehicles and air vehicles--higher than the world TL.

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperium is TL 15. It may or may not limit civilian/member world access to the manufactured goods of systems such as Trin, Mora and Rhylanor, or then again it may not.

You can order a TL15 widget on any world in the Imperium, providing you are willing to pay the Cr1000/jump shipping cost (this is for one displacement ton of widgets). Plus whatever it costs to send the purchase request via x-boat or subsidised merchant.

Your knowledge base is TL15 regardless of local world TL - all you need are the books/computer files whatever your storage medium of choice is.

Unless a member world government completely separates its population from the starport and off world contact that is - in which case it is only the ruling elite with access to the TL15 toys.

Then there is Kinorb 0602 A663659 5 Rich Non-industrial G

 

[Ulsyus]

There's also tech level bleed to consider.

For example, Pysadi is a TL 4 world with a tainted atmo that sports a Class C Starport.

Starports must have minimum TL. A Starport cannot be TL 4. And, that higher TL of the Starport must bleed over into the community.

Plus, ships with high tech cargoes may leave higher tech devices behind.



The old DGP CT books, Grand Census/Survey, suggested minimum TL s for Starports (I think TL 8 is the minimum, but I don't recall for sure), but beyond that, the DGP books rated worlds in different classifications for TL.

For example, a Water World may have very low tech ground vehicle TL, much lower than the world TL. Yet, it may have high TL in water vehicles and air vehicles--higher than the world TL.

Those world data sheets were a lot of work to put together, but they provided a nice amount of discriminatory detail, especially with TL as you pointed out.

Would TL 8 work as a minimum for a port servicing interstellar vessels? Maybe just the provision to be able to provide liquid hydrogen in bulk quantities would be a qualifier, along with Humaniti-compatable food and other items needed to get the vessel on its way again.

If the TL of the port was higher than that of the world, but still below 10 or so, would it be automatically be downgraded to a B at best? I reckon that is an instance where in world generation, or modification, a ref would need to intervene to save players from any insanity in the UWP, but is that too prescriptive?

 

[pendragonman]

Let's not lose sight of the facts that the enlistment tables are for generating player characters---travellers. Not generating the average trooper in any military.

Take a look at the entry exam for the US military---the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB). It's whole purpose is to sort the incoming trooper into what jobs they can reasonably do. Even today, while everyone gets firearms training (gun cbt-0) some people are cooks, some people are combat troops.

It is a normalized test, meaning that a 50 means you did better than 50% of the test takers. To join the military, if you have a high school diploma (from any school district and they vary widely in quality of education) all you need to join is a 31. That doesn't make you a technician, it just means you can join.

Some of you are making a big deal about using a computer. Not every job in any military requires the use of a computer. Mostly, you just have to follow directions and be able to (basically, anyway) read. Someone else, sorted by the test for aptitude, uses the computer. Militaries need people that people that can load cargo. Not ballance cargo, just lift and move stuff. How much brains do you need to lift and move bags, boxes and crates?

Do you need to know how to weld (to make a two wheeled hand truck) to be able to use one? Do you need to know how to make a stove to use one?

Every school system, and thus every population group, has those that are bright and learn quickly and adapt to new ideas quickly. And every population has those that are, for lack of a better term, bricks. Both the bricks and the bright get called to serve. and militaries everywhere have jobs for both.

So quit splitting hairs about the technology. People are people. They were when we shifted from TL1-2 to industrial age, They will be when we shift from 7-8 to space faring.

One last point to remember. Local tech level is the sustainable tech level-that technology that can be mass produced locally with local equipment. (Sorry Aramis) Does every town in Alaska have the ability to mass produce flat screen TVs? NO. Can you get one shipped to you anywhere in Alaska for a price? Sure. (Enter the tramp freighter/bush pilot delivery system)

 

[Supplement Four]

Let's not lose sight of the facts that the enlistment tables are for generating player characters---travellers. Not generating the average trooper in any military.

Excellent point.

 

[Supplement Four]

Those world data sheets were a lot of work to put together, but they provided a nice amount of discriminatory detail, especially with TL as you pointed out.

Agreed. Like detailing the entire system using Book 6, or finding the gravity of a world with Grand Census/Survey, or putting together a temperature chart.

Lots of work, but worth it for the details it provides.

If I knew a campaign were to take place in a single subsector, I would sometimes detail all the worlds in the system using these processes. It was a ton of work, but well worth the effort once the campaign was underway.

Often, the players would consult sensors or the Library Computer for information on a world, and since I had done the work, I had the info at the tip of my fingers: surface temperature, local gravity, weather patterns, tech level in categories, etc.

It also informed me on how to ad-lib stuff, knowing the parameters for the world and the system. Other starports, spaceports and such.

I wouldn't detail everything about a system, but I'd do a lot of it, and detail what I needed as the game went along.

If the TL of the port was higher than that of the world, but still below 10 or so, would it be automatically be downgraded to a B at best?

I was thinking of the minimum, and I may be wrong. My memory is hazy. Maybe it was a minimum of TL 10 for a starport.

I'll look it up....

Here it is. Grand Census, page 22.

No matter waht the world's tech level is, starports always have a minimum tech level which exists within the starport's borders. These minimums are:

Class A - TL 10
Class B - TL 9
Class C - TL 8

Class D - TL 7
Class E - TL 6
Class X - TL 0

Man! Every time I look through Grand Census/Survey, and am again impressed at how marvelous these works truly are.

There's lots of gold in dem there hills!

 

[mike wightman]

And it is canonically wrong. Like much DGP ship related stuff they just didn't get their homework right.

Kinorb - class A starport, TL5.

Kinorb can build and maintain starships - how? Simple.

The starport is class A therefore it is TL15 for starship purposes.
My local car dealer can do mainainance on state of the art Mercedes cars - but every single replacement part is an import and the technical specs are all on a database.

The Imperium setting is an application of the rules as written. The only thing that makes sense within the setting and the huge amount of trade that takes place is that every A class starport has TL15 available for starships.

 

[Supplement Four]

And it is canonically wrong. Like much DGP ship related stuff they just didn't get their homework right.

Kinorb - class A starport, TL5.

Kinorb can build and maintain starships - how? Simple.

The starport is class A therefore it is TL15 for starship purposes.
My local car dealer can do mainainance on state of the art Mercedes cars - but every single replacement part is an import and the technical specs are all on a database.

The Imperium setting is an application of the rules as written. The only thing that makes sense within the setting and the huge amount of trade that takes place is that every A class starport has TL15 available for starships.

I can't agree with you here, Sigg. I'm OK with the imports, but you've still got to be familiar with the processes and have a background at the required tech.

You can't land an F-22 in, say, Mozambique, and have a car mechanic put a new jet engine in the high-tech fighter, even if there was no problem having the engine imported.

And, the difference between TL 15 and TL 5 is vastly different from what I've just described.




EDIT: And, I believe MWM declared the DGP stuff to be canon, didn't he?

 

[mike wightman]

No, but the aircraft mechanics at their international airport will be up to the task.

In much the same way the engineers and technicians at Kinorb's class A starport can perform annual maintenance on any starship that comes calling, even if the ship is TL15 and Kinorb is only TL5. The starport has access to the Imperial database, it can order a stock of spare parts, it may even have its own makers for manufacturing some parts. There are likely to be fusion+ power plants at the starport, yet the local world TL can not support them. But the Imperium can.

 

[Supplement Four]

No, but the aircraft mechanics at their international airport will be up to the task.

In much the same way the engineers and technicians at Kinorb's class A starport can perform annual maintenance on any starship that comes calling, even if the ship is TL15 and Kinorb is only TL5. The starport has access to the Imperial database, it can order a stock of spare parts, it may even have its own makers for manufacturing some parts. There are likely to be fusion+ power plants at the starport, yet the local world TL can not support them. But the Imperium can.

You're making the argument that Starports have a minimum TL.

We'll have to disagree on this. I would think that the Starport engineers and technicians are imported to Kinorb, too.

That, or there are advanced training programs on Kinorb, run by imported off-worlders with TL 15 backgrounds, for the lucky few who study from birth to be TL 15 educated--at least in certain areas.

TL 5 is petrochemicals, electric calculators, soft steel, and shotguns.

TL 15 is fusion plants, pseudo-realty computers, early black globes, and FGMPs.

Lots of difference there.



EDIT: That classic movie, The Day The Earth Stood Still, is a good example of TL 5 vs. TL 15. I doubt anyone on the Earth could fix that spaceship, even if they had the parts.

 

[mike wightman]

But the bit that is really important to understand is the Imperium is TL15. The worlds on the trade lanes are not in isolation, they are connected by x-boat links and additional trade lanes (see The Traveller Adventure).
Kinorb at TL5 is still well aware of what TL15 can do. The Third Imperium is an empire built on trade.
Where do all the goods manufactured at Rhylanor, Trin, Mora and Glisten go?

My answer is that type A starports are beacons of Imperial TL15 splendour regardless of local world TL. It's the only way makes sense within the setting, to me at least.

TL 10 Regina has an IN base and a General shipyard that builds state of the art TL15 warships.

Just seen your edit.

The earth in The Day the Earth Stood Still is TL6 and unaware of the TL20+ culture that comes calling...
totally different to TL 5 Kinorb with its type A starport, part of the x-boat network, and the entire Imperial database to sift through. Or are you suggesting that the Imperium denies high technology and knowledge of high technology to member worlds?

 

[kilemall]

One last point to remember. Local tech level is the sustainable tech level-that technology that can be mass produced locally with local equipment. (Sorry Aramis) Does every town in Alaska have the ability to mass produce flat screen TVs? NO. Can you get one shipped to you anywhere in Alaska for a price? Sure. (Enter the tramp freighter/bush pilot delivery system)

THIS.

IN an interstellar society, more a summation of what the planet can sustain economically, educationally, technically, politically and socially then TL generation.

 

[Condottiere]

Once the Navy has control of near orbit, it becomes more of a question of rooting out remaining ground forces, and for a willing enemy, numbers count, especially infantry.