CT Only: Homeworld Enlistment

[Supplement Four]

We all agree that the TL of a world indicates the highest technology that can be manufactured locally, right? OK then...

Let's "read" the Aramis subsector in the Spinward Marches. The highest TL in that entire subsector is TL 13, at Lewis, which is a closed world, home of the Tukera Noble estsates, with a Class X starport. So, that's not a source of high tech trade.

Next in line is Heguz, at TL 12, with a Class E Starport. Obvioulsy not a source. And, there's Feneteman, at TL 12, which is Poor and has very low population, Starport C. Again, not a source.

Which takes us down to the TL 10 and 11 worlds, of which there are several, and are obviously the source of the highest tech trade in the subsector.

Where are all these TL 15 import parts being manufactured? Where are the people, trained at TL 15, coming from?

And, better yet, who is paying for all that extremely expensive travel from far outside the subsector?

Looking deeper at the subsector...

Carsten is TL 11, but non-industrial.
L'oeul d'Dieu is TL 11, but non-industrial.
Aramis is TL 11, Subsector Capital, but non-industrial.




Meaning the highest tech sources in the subsector is coming from one place...

Nasemin, TL 11, Starport B, Water World





As for TL 10....

Focaline, TL 10, Starport E, non-industrial
Lablon, TL 10, Starport B, non-industrial
Rugbird, TL 10, Starport B, non-industrial
Towers, TL 10, Starport B, non-industrial




Violante, TL 10, Starport C





So, all the high tech sources in the subsector are TL 11 Nasemin and TL 10 Violante, neither with a Class A Starport.

The TL 9 sources are: Junidy, with Starport B, and the Patinir Asteroid Belt, with Starport C.

There are no TL 8 sources.

So, these worlds are the source for technology in the Aramis Subsector. Getting anything at TL 12+ must be extremely hard (I'm sure not impossible).





Further...

The Traveller Book tells us that only Class A Starports can build starships, but a TL is not stipulated.

So, in the Aramis subsector, this is only done on Paya and Aramis. Where, on both worlds, parts must be imported from TL 11 Nasemin.

Which is Average Imperial TL, with maximum Model 5 Computers and Drives maximum to category K.



It's interesting because the starship parts are manufactured on Nasemin but not assembled there. Those parts are exported to two non-industrial worlds that have Class A Starports.

In reading the subsector, this also means that most vessels--those manufactured in the subsector--are TL 11 vessels (or possibly TL 9 or 10).

 

[aramis]

We all agree that the TL of a world indicates the highest technology that can be manufactured locally, right? OK then...

No. It's the commonly encountered tech base on world. (noting that Marc considers DGP's GS/GC to be canon; in there, the world's TL is explicitly defined as the encountered tech, not manufacturing capability)

Also, from Adv 0 (by Marc Miller, with John Harshman):

TECH LEVEL
Value determined by examination of available materials on the world surface.
Referee may indicate specific items, which the characters may match to the tech level table in Book 2.​

It doesn't require local manufacture.

 

[Supplement Four]

No. It's the commonly encountered tech base on world. (noting that Marc considers DGP's GS/GC to be canon; in there, the world's TL is explicitly defined as the encountered tech, not manufacturing capability)

Also, from Adv 0 (by Marc Miller, with John Harshman):

TECH LEVEL
Value determined by examination of available materials on the world surface.
Referee may indicate specific items, which the characters may match to the tech level table in Book 2.​

It doesn't require local manufacture.

OK, locally available goods, then. It doesn't change my point earlier, in reading the subsector. (We can argue about what "non-industrial" means later.)

Going by DGP, then, a Starport A produces starships at the local tech or TL 10, whichever is higher.

Aramis would still produce TL 11 starships.

And, Paya would produce TL 10 starships at their port.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm referencing S3, and I notice, for the first time, that the grid does not match between subsectors.

 

[Supplement Four]

Going with Mike's idea of import from Class A, TL 15 worlds, parts could be imported from Rhylanor to Aramis. A purchaser could have a choice of a TL 11 vessel, or a TL 15 vessel with added cost.

It's three jumps and five weeks (week in port) to get a part from Rhylanor, given a Jump-3 Cargo Transport. The extra cost must be...something to behold.

So, are the workers at the Aramis Class A starport trained to TL 15, as Mike says?

I say, no. The local TL is TL 11. The vast majority of the workers at the Starport are locals, not immigrants. They study at the local tech and get a job at the Starport, producing TL 11 starships.

Now, in my game, if someone wants a TL 15 vessel, then he can travel to Rhylanor. Travelling there will be cheaper than importing everything needed to build at Aramis, anyway.





Mike brought up Kinorb. And, I assume he means the Kinorb in the Regina subsector and not the Kinorb of the Rhylanor subsector.

Kinorb is TL 5 but has a Class A Starport. Kinorb is also a terminus for one of the X-Boat routes (which I assume is a big part of the reason Kinorb has a Class A starport). Kinorb is also on the very edge of the coreward edge of the Imperium. It's probably a big jumping off point--a settlers' town at the edge of the wilderness, so to speak. Kinorb is also non-industrial.

Going by the DGP rules, outside the starport, the world enjoys TL 5. At the starport, it can build TL 10 starships.

Now, this is probably a problem. Local workers must be vastly educated (maybe the Starport has an actual school system for gifted locals at a young age, raising them to TL 10).

There may be an incentive for people from TL 10 Dentus to imigrate to Kinorb. Supervisors and specialists immigrate from TL 13 Pixie (possibly doing tours on Kinorb and returning home when the contract is fulfilled).

 

[kilemall]

No. It's the commonly encountered tech base on world. (noting that Marc considers DGP's GS/GC to be canon; in there, the world's TL is explicitly defined as the encountered tech, not manufacturing capability)

Also, from Adv 0 (by Marc Miller, with John Harshman):

TECH LEVEL
Value determined by examination of available materials on the world surface.
Referee may indicate specific items, which the characters may match to the tech level table in Book 2.​

It doesn't require local manufacture.

Exactly.

Might be TL limit due to economic factors.

Might be politics limiting contact and trade to avoid outworld taint or to force 'generating jobs' or locking goods and services into powerful interests, possibly including nobles.

Might be excessive environmental costs that doesn't allow enough margin to 'retool' or import.

Might be interstellar corps with possibly noble support/collusion that have a subsector model where the low TL world is a source of cheap raw materials bought by higher tech manufacture and locked into buying high tech for high SOC/rich only- a relatively local mercantilism.

A lot of raw material for adventure gen if you look at the TL and figure there is a reason, especially choices made on the world or the interstellar stage.

 

[Supplement Four]

No. It's the commonly encountered tech base on world. (noting that Marc considers DGP's GS/GC to be canon; in there, the world's TL is explicitly defined as the encountered tech, not manufacturing capability)

Also, from Adv 0 (by Marc Miller, with John Harshman):

TECH LEVEL
Value determined by examination of available materials on the world surface.
Referee may indicate specific items, which the characters may match to the tech level table in Book 2.​

It doesn't require local manufacture.

Here's what S3 says about Tech Level, starting on page 38, and it's quite a bit...

(I bolded the part significant to this discussion.)

As a general indication of the degree of sophistication in equipment, in manufacturing ability, and in general style of life, the technological level code is perhaps the best single measure. Within certain limits, the technological level can be compared o certain periods of ages on Terra. The technological level table makes these comparisons for the sake of convenience and rapid reference. It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturing materials at that tech level; merely that such items are present. Consider, for example, that many cities use equipment which is of a certain sophistication, for example, modern computers--but there is no corresponding manufacturing ability for such items in most cities.

The standard technological level for most of the interior of the Imperium is a range between A (10) and D (13) with a general maximum of F (15); toward the fringes (such as the Spinward Marches) this range of levels is approximately 6 to B (11). It is important to note that any world with a tech level of 7 or greater is space-faring, and any world with a tech level of 9 or greater is star-faring.

Arthur C. Clarke has stated that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable form magic." Within the context of Traveller, this is assumed to occur at about tech level G and above. This concept of magic should not be confused with fantasy; the so-called magic is solidly based in the sciences. But, to the ordinary individual, the results appear fantastic. In the Spinward Marches, this phenomenon will probably express itself at Darrian (in the Darrian subsector); the world is tech level G, with remnants of past glories still available. Examples might include flying cities or matter transport booths.

As for the "non-industrial" tag: I agree that the TL provides a code for the kind of tech generally available on a world. But since the "non-industrial" tag is used in trading, that makes it obvious to me that if a world is non-industrial, that there's not a lot of wide scale production of manufactured goods, either. Which means there's nothing to export. The world TL goods are imported.

Though, I do agree that most worlds, industrial or not, have some exports. Aramis is non-industrial, and it has logical exports for that world. But, TL 11 Aramis isn't exporting any starship parts on a large scale, and it's Class A starport builds maximum TL 11 starships (and this is supported in the second paragraph of the TL quote above).

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW, I freakin' love these types of discussions!

 

[Condottiere]

Some technology has just reached the technological level of good enough, barring ludditism, planned obsolescence, consumerism and marketing.

 

[mike wightman]

There is considerable Imperial presence in the Aramis subsector. Every single world with an IN base has a TL15 facility right there.
So Paya, L'oeul, Aramis and Natoko all have TL15 In bases and ships and fleets stationed. Nasemin and Towers have scout bases and type B starports.

Remember that type B starports can perform annual maintainance on starships despite being unable to build them - so they must have the parts but not a full assembly yard - wonder where the parts come from on Aramanx (TL6) and Natoko (TL8)?

One final thing about knowledge of higher TL stuff - what are the displays in the museum on Aramis again?

Weapons of the Starfleets is a display sponsored by Ling-
Standard, and is designed to acquaint the general public with
the various main armaments employed on large starships
(and to serve as a subtle advertisement for Ling-Standard's
products). A key feature of the display is a scale model of
a type J meson accelerator, sectioned in half and labeled
with colored lights and holographic gimmicks.

The J is TL15, there are additional displays about ship screens.
So people on this mid tech world know all about the potential of TL15 weapons etc.

 

[Supplement Four]

There is considerable Imperial presence in the Aramis subsector. Every single world with an IN base has a TL15 facility right there.

I wonder how practical that really is. I'm sure you've got a line somewhere that says all Imperial Forces are equipped at TL 15, and maybe they are. But, infrastructure has to be there to support that TL 15, and if its not, then I question the possibility.

Several of the IN vessels shown in S7 and S9 are lower that TL 15, IIRC.

 

[coliver988]

I wonder how practical that really is. I'm sure you've got a line somewhere that says all Imperial Forces are equipped at TL 15, and maybe they are. But, infrastructure has to be there to support that TL 15, and if its not, then I question the possibility.

Several of the IN vessels shown in S7 and S9 are lower that TL 15, IIRC.

And therein lies the bureaucracy and nobles fudging things: of course we have those parts available. (quick, send a courier to Macene - they may be able to create the parts!) It may take a few weeks for the installation - we are running low on qualified personnel at the moment. Holidays and all that you know...

 

[Ulsyus]

He's not making it up. I think the number is something like 253 days of hard combat before you start getting into general levels of disabling PTSD.

I don't know to what extent something like say Iraq War garrison/convoy duty with of threat of attack counts, but the key is stress.

One would think psych/neuro tech would be better at treating/preventing such problems.

And of course, the Zhos could reliably fix their forces, so they may be able to take to the field for far longer. On the other hand, the ratios required may create too high a level of exposure for their ruling class and they have to do rest/refit on a similar cycle as other polities.

Course, in the long run Zhos may not need huge occupying garrisons, as each acquired planet gets 'processed' into the 'healthy' rightthink, only limited by resources available for the 'processing'.

I didn't say he'd made it up, and I asked about the intensity thing because troops in WW1 and WW2, both monumental conflicts, weren't in combat all the time. Now if they were just fed into a trenchline, or were constantly involved in a aback-and-forth manoeuvre that went on for that long without cessation or interlude, fair enough. But even on the eastern front in WW2 that wasn't the case. The intensity thing is important, because that's what can drive a hard edge of days like the number you cited. That's why a lot of specops lads only deploy on operations for relatively short periods of time.

Cannon fodder. Interesting term that doesn't relate to first world militaries, possibly the IA, but may be appropriate for some lower-tech (<=6 ?) local forces.

 

[mike wightman]

I wonder how practical that really is. I'm sure you've got a line somewhere that says all Imperial Forces are equipped at TL 15, and maybe they are. But, infrastructure has to be there to support that TL 15, and if its not, then I question the possibility.

Every Imperial Naval Base is TL15 and can refuel, maintain and repair fleet elements. There is a picture in the T5 book which shows a BatRon of Tigress BBs docked at what I am assuming is the IN base section of Regina highport, they look like barnacles on a sea wall the base is that big.

Several of the IN vessels shown in S7 and S9 are lower that TL 15, IIRC.

Some are lower than TL15; the scout/courier, the x-boat (which is listed as TL10 as per LBB2 but in HG TL paradigm should be TL13) and the 800t merc cruiser.
Every IN warship except the Gazelle (TL14) and the AHL are TL15. The AHL is actually a hybrid TL14/15 refit.

 

[Supplement Four]

Every Imperial Naval Base is TL15 and can refuel, maintain and repair fleet elements.

I don't quite buy that. I can buy that most IN capital ships are TL 15, and they are manufactured at Class A starports on TL 15 worlds. They they leave the dock and go off to join their assigned fleets.

But the IN base at Aramis can only build TL 11 vessels.

Now, Battledress, FGMPS, and lots of other equipment are imported to the Aramis IN base, and that base is provided with enough infrastructure to service (not build) and provide regular maintenance on the TL 15 vessels that come by Aramis.

 

[McPerth]

Every Imperial Naval Base is TL15 and can refuel, maintain and repair fleet elements. There is a picture in the T5 book which shows a BatRon of Tigress BBs docked at what I am assuming is the IN base section of Regina highport, they look like barnacles on a sea wall the base is that big.


Some are lower than TL15; the scout/courier, the x-boat (which is listed as TL10 as per LBB2 but in HG TL paradigm should be TL13) and the 800t merc cruiser.
Every IN warship except the Gazelle (TL14) and the AHL are TL15. The AHL is actually a hybrid TL14/15 refit.

IIRC there are no AHL remaining in IN service, those remaining having been tranfered to IISS or lower echelon navies (mostly subsector/reserve), sold as supplus or given up to allies and clients...

But the IN base at Aramis can only build TL 11 vessels.

He did not say otherwise, as he talked about refueling, maintaing and repairing, not about building.

See that unless Jewell (TL12) or Efate (TL13) IN bases can maintain and repair Imperial (and so TL15) ships, the 125 fleet (based on Jewell) and the 193 (based on Efate) would have been quite attrited by weariness in FFW, and yet they stood for years with only their local bases for support...

 

[mike wightman]

I don't quite buy that. I can buy that most IN capital ships are TL 15, and they are manufactured at Class A starports on TL 15 worlds. They they leave the dock and go off to join their assigned fleets.

But the IN base at Aramis can only build TL 11 vessels.

Now, Battledress, FGMPS, and lots of other equipment are imported to the Aramis IN base, and that base is provided with enough infrastructure to service (not build) and provide regular maintenance on the TL 15 vessels that come by Aramis.

The fleet at Aramis is TL15, the IN base at Aramis is TL15.
The whole point of the Traveller Adventure plot is the stealing of a TL15 IN meson gun shipment which is enroute to the Aramis IN base - so yes the IN does ship spares to its bases. The base will also have TL15 maker technology, TL15 computer technology etc.
The IN can have TL15 warships assembled at TL10 Regina, I don't see why they could not do the same at TL11 Aramis. Not the big ships mind you, but certainly anything up to 5000t.

 

[mike wightman]

IIRC there are no AHL remaining in IN service, those remaining having been tranfered to IISS or lower echelon navies (mostly subsector/reserve), sold as supplus or given up to allies and clients...

The AHLs were retired for the second time post FFW, which is probably what you are thinking of from MT canon. During the CT era the AHL were still in service in the SM and fought in the FFW

Here you go:

In 1048, all 55 surviving examples still in Imperial Naval service were retired
from active duty...
A total of 28 hulls were ultimately converted and redesignated
as frontier cruisers...
The 28 ships converted were redesignated as frontier cruisers in recognition of
their anticipated role as the local core of the first line of defense on the frontiers of
the Imperium. Initially, all 28 ships were paired to form 14 cruiser divisions (Cru-
Divs 117 to 128, inclusive), but CruDivs 118, 119, and 127 were soon broken
up to provide individual ships for moderate threat regions.

See that unless Jewell (TL12) or Efate (TL13) IN bases can maintain and repair Imperial (and so TL15) ships, the 125 fleet (based on Jewell) and the 193 (based on Efate) would have been quite attrited by weariness in FFW, and yet they stood for years with only their local bases for support...

Exactly so

 

[Ulsyus]

See that unless Jewell (TL12) or Efate (TL13) IN bases can maintain and repair Imperial (and so TL15) ships, the 125 fleet (based on Jewell) and the 193 (based on Efate) would have been quite attrited by weariness in FFW, and yet they stood for years with only their local bases for support...

Exactly so

So how did that happen? Mike, does this go back to your suggestion that Class A ports would all be TL15?

 

[mike wightman]

Pretty much.

In setting the IN maintains TL15 bases at some type A and B starports. Any starport of type A and B can perform annual maintainance on any civilian ship that comes calling, according to the rules as written, so it makes sense in the Spinward Marches of 1105+ setting for TL15 stuff being available at type A and B starports - course I would increase the price depending on local TL and the distance to the nearest manufacturing world.

So the conversation went something like this...

Player makes it rich and decide to have a 1000t ship built with a jump4 drive - V - a power plant 6 - Y - and m-drive 6 - X.
According to book 2 this can be built at any type A starport (LBB2 has no TL resrictions on construction apart from the computer - which is odd).
The referee says that according to the TL rules in LBB3 the world has to be TL15 to build those drives.
Import them says the player, I will pay the additional cost of Cr1000 per ton per jump from the nearest TL15 world.
But the local world can not assemble to TL 15 says the ref, then how come TL10 Regina can at the General shipyards - I'll get them to do it, replies the player.
You can't they only do military contract construction thanks to access to the TL15 IN base facilities.
What if I have a mercenary licence...

Another thing to consider.

The mainworld of the system may only be starport C and TL8, but off in the asteroid belt of the system there could be a TL15 megacorporation mining and manufacturing facility operating under licence to the local subsector duke.