CT Only: Homeworld Enlistment
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Put another way, boots on the ground. And even then, depending on the population, you may control only the area that your boots are presently on.
Corollary - Hearts and Minds has to be part of the goals of the boots on the ground.
If you can win the hearts and minds of at least a significant minority, things get MUCH easier.
Nonsense.
If anything, the military is the best suited for training unskilled people.
They turned my brother in to an Avionics Tech. And I can assure you, he didn't know squat about avionics, aircraft or anything else. Did he become an Avionics Engineer? No. Could he work the avionics on any plane in existence? No. They trained him enough to do the job they needed him to do, with enough theory to get him by (if any). I honestly have no idea what an Avioinics Tech does. But you certainly don't learn it in High School.
They trained my wife in computers back when computers were not common at all. Programmer? No. Engineer? No. She was a computer operations tech. But, again, zero background in the field.
I don't know, but I'm sure the modern military has "Keyboarding" classes if necessary that train recruits on general computing operation. The military today can be much more selective about people, but they won't let something a basic as "not being able to type" keep someone out.
A favorite line (and take it with a grain of salt) from one of Richard Marcinko's book about the Seals. He tasked a guy to take two large weights across a pool. The guy dropped in, and marched across the bottom, carrying the weights. When he got out, he was asked "Why didn't you just swim across?" "I can't swim." "Hell, we can teach you to swim!"
Most of the stuff in the military is foreign to recruits. Yea, it's nice to recruit riflemen, but, not a lot of them today either, really.
So where do all the civilian ships built at TL10-14 come from? Are they just leftovers from centuries before, or do they come from independent planets out beyond the frontier?
How difficult is it to nowadays buy parts for a car built in 1965 if you don't live in Cuba or Moldova? How hard would it be, at a location that didn't have readily available Makers, to purchase parts for a starship that was built at a TL three or four less than that which your local port had been building at for the last two hundred years?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Once the Navy controls near orbit, they'll likely spot anything moving on the surface, and could drop a brick on it, whether a tonne of them or give it guidance,
you send the infantry in to make it personal, as well as to tunnel rat those that have dug in. It's a physical presence to exert psychological pressure.
Hearts and minds can play it in a variety of ways; you bomb them to the Stone Age, demand unconditional surrender, and then Marshal Plan them to allies.
Or you ethnically cleanse them.
Machiavelli favoured an initial harsh regime, and then benign dictatorship.
Militaries like to keep specialists for the long term, having invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort in training them; my estimate is that cannon fodder should be regenerated every three years if they're being fed into an ongoing conflict, because they will have had enough after about year of active combat.
you send the infantry in to make it personal, as well as to tunnel rat those that have dug in. It's a physical presence to exert psychological pressure.
Hearts and minds can play it in a variety of ways; you bomb them to the Stone Age, demand unconditional surrender, and then Marshal Plan them to allies.
Or you ethnically cleanse them.
Machiavelli favoured an initial harsh regime, and then benign dictatorship.
Militaries like to keep specialists for the long term, having invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort in training them; my estimate is that cannon fodder should be regenerated every three years if they're being fed into an ongoing conflict, because they will have had enough after about year of active combat.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I don't doubt that a lower tech person can be trained up to standards with a higher tech group, especially when one has that higher tech group for support.
But, what we're talking about here is low tech people, in a low tech group (world with low TL 5), servicing and building vehicles and equipment far above their technical knowledge (TL 15 Starships through the Class A Starport).
It's a slightly different animal than what you describe.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's not above their knowledge, that's the thing you avoid grasping by the tail.
Their knowledge is TL15 because that is the TL of the Imperial database. All they have to do is read a few books.
Someone with an Int of 12 on a TL5 world can learn from books to develop their (TL15) Edu to 12 too.
The world may lack the industrial infrastructure to manufacture stuff above TL5, but that doesn't mean that if supplied with imported parts and the technical specs the Int 12 Edu 12 engineer from the TL5 world could not fix the TL15 starship jump drive - all they need is the youtube video and the spares.
Technology isn't magic, it can be learned and taught.
The spares can be imported, while the knowledge base should be available too.
Their knowledge is TL15 because that is the TL of the Imperial database. All they have to do is read a few books.
Someone with an Int of 12 on a TL5 world can learn from books to develop their (TL15) Edu to 12 too.
The world may lack the industrial infrastructure to manufacture stuff above TL5, but that doesn't mean that if supplied with imported parts and the technical specs the Int 12 Edu 12 engineer from the TL5 world could not fix the TL15 starship jump drive - all they need is the youtube video and the spares.
Technology isn't magic, it can be learned and taught.
The spares can be imported, while the knowledge base should be available too.
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Hmm, that works really well now too. With all the ISR platforms and capabilities there's really no need for grunatsauruses to have to go into harms way today when a Hellfire can sort all problems out. Oh, hang on...
Fair enough, but the pressure needs to be more than psychological, as seen in just the recorded bits of human history...
Well, that could work for an authoritarian interstellar state where the military and their political masters are not at all accountable for such acts against foes of inferior capability. It may be an interesting society that raised citizens who wouldn't suffer psychologically from those sort of acts and still be considered fit members or the public, able to wander around without restriction (or is that why family members weep when one of theirs joins be military, because they'll never be seen again....[du-du-du-duuuuuh])
Interesting estimate. Experience? I'm keen to have a look at some source material if you read it! When you mention an ongoing conflict, do you mean at WW1 or WW2 levels of intensity, Napoleonic Wars intensity, or something else?
Is it naive to think there is a human cost to inhuman acts? Even in the Far Future?
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
For the ship parts especially the Letter drives- ISO/RFC type standardization, coupled with it being more economical to build to local ability to support.
If you are at TL15 you probably have plenty of makers that can churn out that easy TL12 stuff and its probably more reliable and durable and still cheaper then TL15 proper (should have performance differences built in somewhere).
Shipping engineering modules is cheap relative to the total value in the millions of credits.
For example, say there is a 10% shipping cost leeway vs. local build infrastructure costs. A CT C-Jump Drive costs 50MCr and is 20 tons, that's 20,000 Cr per parsec, that drive could ship 100 parsecs and it's still at 4% of value.
With a certain interpretation of the shipping rules and careful routing, that 2MCr shipping fee may go further.
I'd say there is a case that IND worlds can make drives more cheaply and puts pressure/ships products all over.
That also can be used to build a case for TL10-14 drives, as IND worlds in that TL band could also be shipping their products for 100+ parsecs.
No starship parts in the Trade and Speculation table at the end of LBB2, but given the other parts categories, we can assume a range of IND-3 to IND-5, meaning 30% to 50% off or more.
So a strong case for more centralized starship part manufacture, and maybe a more logical reason for those long build times- it's literally shipped in, whereas entire replacement drives are on hand, held in reserve specifically to get going again.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
A lot of accountability per se was also built into how much a neighboring state could ally with/use/recruit the oppressed population. In the OTU, that's a bit hard to come by outside border subsectors, so squishing uprisings maybe easier.
New acquisition planets may require a LOT more resources to hold/ingest culturally, which may help explain the relatively few 'border adjustments' in OTU wars.
He's not making it up. I think the number is something like 253 days of hard combat before you start getting into general levels of disabling PTSD.
I don't know to what extent something like say Iraq War garrison/convoy duty with of threat of attack counts, but the key is stress.
One would think psych/neuro tech would be better at treating/preventing such problems.
And of course, the Zhos could reliably fix their forces, so they may be able to take to the field for far longer. On the other hand, the ratios required may create too high a level of exposure for their ruling class and they have to do rest/refit on a similar cycle as other polities.
Course, in the long run Zhos may not need huge occupying garrisons, as each acquired planet gets 'processed' into the 'healthy' rightthink, only limited by resources available for the 'processing'.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
So, if all the people--or a good amount of people--of the TL 5 world are really capable of TL 15, they why is their world limited to TL 5 manufacture?
Wouldn't those knowledgeable at TL 15 lead the others to a higher TL?
I would think so.
Which is why I disagree with your assessment (in general, for the whole, but not specifically, for an individual or two).
I think one of two things must be true:
(1) the local government is suppressing knowledge. This could be consensual (a colony of neo-luddites) or as a means of brutal government control
(2) the 3I is suppressing knowledge. This is most likely the result of the whims of nobility or profit motives of megacorporations.
I think the 3I does not come off looking good in either case.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Let us examine the infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities in the Midwest of the U.S. for example.
Is it possible that every single town in the Midwest could have a computer chip factory? Yes. Does every single town in the Midwest have a computer chip factory? No. not even close.
The average town, since very few actually have a factory, has sustainable tech level several steps below the TL of the U.S. They have to bring in higher tech toys and higher tech spare parts. Does that mean that they don't have a shop that can repair higher tech stuff? No, as long as the proper repair guides are available. Does that mean they don't have higher tech merchandise in town? No, it is trucked in.
Your argument is that "well, trucking in stuff takes less time and is cheaper than in Traveller, so your argument is invalid." My counter is that there have always been more places with lower local TL manufacturing capability and that higher tech stuff has always been shipped. Sometimes it is in the form of luxeries for the "local" rich people, sometimes it is for the common citizen's market.
Anytime before the steamship arrived, shipping from Europe to the Orient took weeks and was expensive. Does that mean high tech goods from the English Industrial Complex did not get shipped to the Manchu Dynasty? No. Does that mean that there was no one in Manchu China that could fix things when they broke? Only if they didn't have the spare parts.
What isn't addressed by this thread is the trade imbalance this flow of high tech to low tech worlds causes, it takes a whole lot of raw materials and charming low tech "hand made" goods to balance out the flow of high tech goods. So wealth is rarely staying in the low tech areas but is flowing outward to pay for all the high tech trinkets.
This is just a manifest example of "why isn't everything TL15", or at least some other high TL.
The Imperium has been at TL15 for hundreds of years, and TL12 for over a thousand years, yet, still, there are these backwater TL-Nothings floating around grinding grain with rocks and churning their own butter with sticks and buckets.
I have no problems with isolated populations, those held back due to cultural desires (including tyrannical leadership, though I'm less tolerant of those). But once contact is made, you get 50 years of transition. 2 abbreviated generations before you jump from TL-Mud Hut to TL-12+.
There is money to be made in the transition, either from external traders bringing stuff from the outside or the pathfinders and leadership on the planets themselves. Arguably, it is a humanitarian mission to uplift all the peoples you can if nothing else to get them better medicine, better tools, better communication as it improves life, extends life, and saves life -- all positive things for most peoples. So, I can even see, again, once contact is made, charitable institutions involved in the process of uplift doing mission trips and importing translators, classrooms, and teachers and materials.
Consider a group like Heifer International only instead seeding technology instead of goats and chickens.
So, even if there were "no money in it", I'd still expect it to happen, if perhaps not as voraciously if a commercial (or state level) enterprise flew in and set up shop.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yes, just the same as the only limit to knowledge here on earth is computer access. If you can get to a computer you can learn general relativity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, genetics, aeronautical engineering - you name it. Ther are instructional videaos that will have you repairing and maintaining your own car in only a few weeks. It's only a matter of how much time and dedication you can give to the learning.
Only if they can build up the infrastructure needed to manufacture the TL15 stuff.
Every country on Earth today can make microchips, nuclear subs, space shuttles, stealth fighters? No, and yet the knowledge to do all of these things is available.
Fair enough.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree with you.
Consider the Spinward Marches. Mora, Trin, Rhylanor and Glisten are all TL15 high population powerhouses.
Why do they not sell infrastructure to neighbouring worlds so that they can rise to TL 15 rather than sell them manufactured TL15 goods?
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
We all agree that the TL of a world indicates the highest technology that can be manufactured locally, right? OK then...
Let's "read" the Aramis subsector in the Spinward Marches. The highest TL in that entire subsector is TL 13, at Lewis, which is a closed world, home of the Tukera Noble estsates, with a Class X starport. So, that's not a source of high tech trade.
Next in line is Heguz, at TL 12, with a Class E Starport. Obvioulsy not a source. And, there's Feneteman, at TL 12, which is Poor and has very low population, Starport C. Again, not a source.
Which takes us down to the TL 10 and 11 worlds, of which there are several, and are obviously the source of the highest tech trade in the subsector.
Where are all these TL 15 import parts being manufactured? Where are the people, trained at TL 15, coming from?
And, better yet, who is paying for all that extremely expensive travel from far outside the subsector?
Let's "read" the Aramis subsector in the Spinward Marches. The highest TL in that entire subsector is TL 13, at Lewis, which is a closed world, home of the Tukera Noble estsates, with a Class X starport. So, that's not a source of high tech trade.
Next in line is Heguz, at TL 12, with a Class E Starport. Obvioulsy not a source. And, there's Feneteman, at TL 12, which is Poor and has very low population, Starport C. Again, not a source.
Which takes us down to the TL 10 and 11 worlds, of which there are several, and are obviously the source of the highest tech trade in the subsector.
Where are all these TL 15 import parts being manufactured? Where are the people, trained at TL 15, coming from?
And, better yet, who is paying for all that extremely expensive travel from far outside the subsector?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think it is more likely that the Imperium shares its knowledge.
A TL4 world in the Spinward Marches may resemble a wild west town - with an air/raft flying overhead and the local sheriff toting an FGMP15.
Worlds in the Imperium can freely trade with each other, that is the founding principle of the Imperium, and that means knowledge of the high tech stuff is everywhere.
Homes on TL4 worlds can have imported TVs, with signals broadcast over their mobile phone network (imported) much like in many African shanty towns - people live in shipping containers and tents, and yet they all have mobile phones and internet access.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The starport is type X because no one else is allowed to use it apart from Tukera - it is likely to be a class A facility but restricted to Tukera only. Megacorporations and nobles can do that sort of thing.
And yet both worlds can construct TL12 warships at their military shipyards...
Nope, the highest tech trade comes from outside the Aramis subsector.
Mora, Trin, Rhylanor, Glisten
Baron Tukera for one...
Ever wonder where the Imperial nobility of the Marches educate their young to TL15 standards, or where the TL15 educated Imperial bureaucracy comes from?
The Spinward Marches were meant to be a frontier sector far beyond the core worlds of the TL15 Imperium, the few TL15 worlds are the bastions of Imperial might. But so is every IN base, every way station, every x-boat station etc.
One of the hardest things to reconcile is how a region that has been settled for nearly a millennia is still so backward. Now if the Spinward Marches have only been exploited by the Imperium for the last few hundred years the TLs make more sense. There is still a considerable disconnect between the Spinward Marches as presented and the capabilities of a thousand year old empire that began at TL12...
Every world the Imperium colonises should start at TL12, worlds that are admitted to the Imperium could be gifted with a TL12 industrial base.
