CT Only: Homeworld Enlistment

[mike wightman]

Interesting. Which is what I've been saying, though I've been looking at CT sources only.

Those rules stem from a misapplication of TCS rules to the 1105 3I setting. The setting and extant canon such as FFW, S9 and S11 makes it explicit that the IN can repair battle damage to any ship at any IN base, regardless of local world TL.

I've always been attracted to Pocket Empires, but I've never sat down and read it. I need to give it more attention.

It's a good book.

 

[Supplement Four]

Mike, you and I are reading the same lines but interpreting them differently.

 

[mike wightman]

The heavy maintenance section supervises almost all battle damage repair and
the construction of any naval vessel being built at the starport it is attached to.
Emergency facilities are generally on hand to accommodate several ships at once in
general repair.

Nowhere in S:9 is there any mention of local world TL prohibiting the repair of the TL15 fleet.

naval bases are dispersed evenly throughout
the lmperium as harbors and repair sites for the ships of the Imperial Navy.

In S11 we get:

Where such a section would be redundant to the local starport shipyard,

i.e. the IN base is on a TL15 world with a type A starport

it is small, and repairs or alterations are carried out under contract to the local facility.

However, if a world is lower than TL15 and/or the starport is only a class B then:

Where adequate facilities do not exist, the naval base itself may have a large maintenance section
capable of extensive repairs and refits.

The IN base itself has to have the TL15 stuff needed to repair and service the fleet.

 

[Supplement Four]

By your reading of the rules, Mike, TL 15 is a lot more prominent than the map and the worlds in many subsectors seem to indicate.

I don't see how all TL 15 Naval yards are completely self contained. There is sometimes a need for an infrastructure to support it.

And, that part where it says the Naval base will contract out to the Starport...under your reading of it, that will only happen on a TL 15 world.

It is much more likely (and I believe the rules say this) that the TL 15 ships are produced at TL 15 worlds, and then shipped out to their various fleets. And that Naval Bases operate at the local TL for the most part. But, they have small things like Battledress and FGMPs imported, and they are capable of supply, some repair (but no dry dock), and maintenance on TL 15 vessels even when the world is TL A.

Under your interpretation, TL 15 is very wide spread--much more wide spread that I see that it is in the game.

As you move closer to the core of the Imperium, though, the world TL increase--which I think is closer to your version of the game.

In your version, local TL means little.

 

[mike wightman]

To the locals who live on the world the local TL and TL of the wider subsector is everything.

But for the TL15 IN to be able to refit, repair and replace battle damage and losses then every IN base has to be TL15.

Knowledge of TL15 is widespread, and if you have the money you can pay to have TL15 stuff imported.

TL10 Regina has an entire regiment equipped at TL15 - do you think the locals are unaware of their equipment? The General Shipyards on Regina can build TL15 escort class warships for the IN, with black globes no less.

 

[Brandon C]

But for the TL15 IN to be able to refit, repair and replace battle damage and losses then every IN base has to be TL15.

No, they don't. A base in a subsector significantly far from a hostile region might stagnate and not get upgraded over time, thus having older ships it can handle funneled to it.

Knowledge of TL15 is widespread, and if you have the money you can pay to have TL15 stuff imported.

In the long term, it's cheaper and more efficient to raise the planetary tech level.

TL10 Regina has an entire regiment equipped at TL15 - do you think the locals are unaware of their equipment? The General Shipyards on Regina can build TL15 escort class warships for the IN, with black globes no less.

Yeah ... I think it is a mistake to allow that. OTOH,it's easily fixed by allowing naval bases to build ships.

 

[pendragonman]

snip...
In the long term, it's cheaper and more efficient to raise the planetary tech level.

I think this is mentioned up thread, but...

Only if the local (planetary system) populace is in favor of increasing the local tech level. Not every locale wants to be high tech, and a far distant Imperial bureaucracy forcing them to upgrade will cause expensive resistance.

Using military force to make the system upgrade will make the resistance spread to other systems, like taking a hammer to a puddle of water.

Some people like things "low tech simple." And forcing them to change just makes them dig in their heals.

 

[mike wightman]

No, they don't. A base in a subsector significantly far from a hostile region might stagnate and not get upgraded over time, thus having older ships it can handle funneled to it.

The entire Spinward Marches is a potential war zone...

In the long term, it's cheaper and more efficient to raise the planetary tech level.

And yet, four hundred years of frontier wars in the Marches and there are still only how many high population TL15 worlds?

 

[Ishmael]

Sadly the setting does not agree with the rules - want to know why?
The people who wrote MT were not into ships and didn't do their research.
They applied the rules found in TCS to the 3I setting despite the fact the setting had already made it clear that IN bases are TL15 facilities with the capability to repair, refit, and replace battle damage to the TL15 fleet regardless of local world TL.
The error was then carried forward.

The IN would have lost the FFW in pretty short order if it could only repair at Rhylanor, Trin, Mora and Glisten.

I prefer to take the view that the rules define the setting, and not vice-versa. The rules, as opposed to setting fluff, are clear in MT and T4 ( perhaps other versions, but I no longer have those anymore ) that building and repair to damaged systems can only be done at worlds of the appropriate tech levels, not at any naval base regardless of the world's other stats. Naval bases, and scout bases explicitly, provide maintenance, administation and supply.

If it was an error in rules interpretations that were simply carried forward, then it was deliberately carried forward, through multiple editions, by setting gate-keepers up to and including Mr. Miller.
For the most part, all this is unimportant to general role-playing, but it is very important to folk who like playing out the setting as a war-game. This is mostly a meta-game issue that won't directly affect player-characters.

In FFW, the opponent's invasion would have collapsed even quicker if their damaged ships had to go back behind their own lines to repaired as well (unless their logistics tail had been inhumanly perfect). Fortunately, there is 'damage control' that can be done, even if it doesn't bring the system back to 100% capacity. But if we can use FFW as evidence in one direction, then we might use Imperial Squadrons as evidence in the other direction, eh?

 

[Brandon C]

And yet, four hundred years of frontier wars in the Marches and there are still only how many high population TL15 worlds?

Sounds like a concerted effort to suppress technology in sectors outside of a handful of worlds, in order to maintain military and economic power.

This makes a great deal more sense that the rather flimsy reasons given to cover the imperfections of a random generation system covering a few hundred worlds.

 

[BlackBat242]

I prefer to take the view that the rules define the setting, and not vice-versa. The rules, as opposed to setting fluff, are clear in MT and T4 ( perhaps other versions, but I no longer have those anymore ) that building and repair to damaged systems can only be done at worlds of the appropriate tech levels, not at any naval base regardless of the world's other stats. Naval bases, and scout bases explicitly, provide maintenance, administation and supply.

However, as the thread heading states specifically CT ONLY, then MT and T4 are completely irrelevant and inconsequential here!

 

[Brandon C]

However, as the thread heading states specifically CT ONLY, then MT and T4 are completely irrelevant and inconsequential here!

We're not talking about homeworld enlistment anymore, either

 

[Ishmael]

However, as the thread heading states specifically CT ONLY, then MT and T4 are completely irrelevant and inconsequential here!

As soon as the conversation went to the OTU setting, it deviated from CT Only as the OTU is covered by multiple editions such as MT (basically a CT compendium of sorts) and T4 which demonstrates that a TCS rule idea was accepted by canon gate-keepers through at least 2 versions past CT and not in error. The actual answer might be found in a third edition, T5, if a strategic level game is ever produced that is fully compatible with those rules.

Of course, your position could be that each edition's version of the OTU is separate and distinct from each other....
If the thread stayed with generic sandbox CT, and not the overall shared setting, then I would not have posted although I would still strongly disagree with the position that naval bases are tech 15 shipyards.

 

[mike wightman]

The gate keepers got it wrong.

TCS and its campaign rules are not representative of Imperial warfare as modelled by FFW, and much of TCS has been decanonised by no lesser being than MWM himself as a result.

Also I am not claiming every IN base has a TL15 shipyard (although some like Regina and possibly the other General Shipyards worlds do), I am saying every IN base has TL15 spares, makers, repair capability for the ships of the fleet.

My greater claim is that it makes no sense whatsoever for TL15 spare to not be available at every type A and B starport to cater for annual maintenance of civilian shipping.

 

[Condottiere]

Trillion Credit Squadron is, let's say, optimized for a remote sandbox environment.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's a thought....

Have players roll STR normally, then assign Homeworld based on STR rating. The lower ratings come from the lower gravity worlds.

 

[ovka]

Here's a thought....

Have players roll STR normally, then assign Homeworld based on STR rating. The lower ratings come from the lower gravity worlds.

An interesting idea, though my preference would be to give the player a greater range of choices and assign a DM based on the homeworld. Something like (and I'm just spitballing):

size
1-2 DM -3
3-4 DM -2
5-6 DM -1
7-9 DM +0
A-B DM +1

TL could then be an add-on to that (as in a high TL world has artificial gravity, so a TL F size 5 would be no DM to STR).

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[Brandon C]

FWIW, 2300AD (GDW and MgT versions) had four sets of attribute modifiers modifiers based on homeworld gravity.

 

[mike wightman]

Here's a thought....

Have players roll STR normally, then assign Homeworld based on STR rating. The lower ratings come from the lower gravity worlds.

I agree, but there is the caveat that local g also affects Dex in a big way.

On a low g world you do not fall to the ground as fast in the event of an accidental fall, so over time your reaction speed or Dex in other words, could be reduced.
In a similar way a high d environment requires faster reflexes due to falls being faster.

 

[Ulsyus]

I agree, but there is the caveat that local g also affects Dex in a big way.

On a low g world you do not fall to the ground as fast in the event of an accidental fall, so over time your reaction speed or Dex in other words, could be reduced.
In a similar way a high d environment requires faster reflexes due to falls being faster.

What about End? Does that reduce with variations away from the norm that a character has been raised in? A character from a low-G world travels to a higher-G world, and not only is everything relatively heavier than they are used to, but their cardio-vascular system needs to work a lot harder to, say, generate the pressure to ensure that blood moves upwards into the head.

A character from a high-G (vs higher) may also have additional stresses placed on their body by living in that environment. Would living in a lower-G alleviate the damage done by stress? Would that happen if they left by a certain age? If they came from a population that had its DNA modified to compensate for that what would be the effect of living in a lower-G?