CT Only: Homeworld Enlistment

[Supplement Four]

S11 describes Naval Bases in detail, but it's obvious that they're not all TL 15 (as with the world with a ground based Naval Base--TL 15 is definitely not required for 1,000 ton or less hulls).

That the Naval Base is synced with the local TL is obvious in these sentences:

Maintenance sections at naval bases vary from base to base. Where such a section would be redundant with the local starport shipyard, it is small, and repairs or alterations are carried out under contract to the local facility.

That says to me that, if the world has a Class A starport, then that's what is used, under contract, by the Naval Base.

If the world doesn't have a Class A starport, then the Naval Base may be more extensive.



I also found this interesting:

The naval base is not a tactical unit. It has no battle forces of its own, and does not exert control even over local system defense boats (which are under a separate command).

 

[mike wightman]

This is interesting...

S11 states that Naval Bases on the surface of a world are capable of building 1,000 ton hulls or less. Bigger hulls require an orbital starport.

No it doesn't
It doesn't mention building ships at all.
What it says is:

Planetary surface facilities are generally provided for vessels of 1,000 tons
or less; orbital facilities handle larger ships.

Facilities to service, repair, refit - not build.

 

[mike wightman]

S11 describes Naval Bases in detail, but it's obvious that they're not all TL 15 (as with the world with a ground based Naval Base--TL 15 is definitely not required for 1,000 ton or less hulls).

Are you reading a different book? S11 Library Data N-Z. :devil:

That the Naval Base is synced with the local TL is obvious in these sentences:

No it isn't, in fact just the opposite.
If the local TL can not handle TL15 IN vessels then the IN base facilities will be extensive, if the local world TL facilities are up to the job of handling TL15 then the IN base can use their facilities instead of building its own.
Consider the IN base on Regina that has to support the TL15 fleet stationed there. It will need extensive facilities of its own, TL15 spares and makers since Regina is only TL10.
The IN base on Rhylanor may as well only be an office since the class A starport on a TL15 world is more than up to the job of looking after the IN fleet stationed there.

That says to me that, if the world has a Class A starport, then that's what is used, under contract, by the Naval Base.

Naval bases are only found at A and B starports. If the local world TL is not TL 15 then the IN must import parts and makers to service the fleet.

If the world doesn't have a Class A starport, then the Naval Base may be more extensive.

Nope, if the local world TL can not support the TL15 Imperial Fleet then the IN base has to be more extensive.

The FFW boardgame shows all IN bases are TL15, all Imperial fleets are TL15. There are IN bases at TL8 starport B worlds that can support, refit and replace the entire fleet if it comes to call.

 

[Supplement Four]

Mike, I just don't think that we're going to agree about this. :rant:

 

[McPerth]

They are regular IN CruDivs which make up the CruRon counters in FFW.

CruRon 501 is one of the jump 5 cruiser counters in the FFW boardgame, along with CruRons 502-504.

In FFW there's no difference among In and subsector/reserve ones (I guess most initial colonial squadrons, being named for a planet, are from planetary navies, though I might be wrong), so I wouldn't use it as a referent on this...

OTOH, I can accept at least some of those refited AHL might serve in IN, but, having TL15 spinal MG and black globes, I guess they would be considered TL15 ships (albeit the TL14 PP would make them inefficient, as it needs double volume).

 

[mike wightman]

Mike, I just don't think that we're going to agree about this. :rant:

Fair enough
the fun is in the discussion and digging up canon references

 

[mike wightman]

In FFW there's no difference among In and subsector/reserve ones (I guess most initial colonial squadrons, being named for a planet, are from planetary navies, though I might be wrong), so I wouldn't use it as a referent on this...

There is a difference.

Regular Imperial squadrons are printed black on red, planetary/colonial squadrons conscripted at the start are named for the world they come from and are printed white on red. Reinforcements are black on red if regular and white on red if colonial.

The AHL counters are numbered regular Imperial Squadrons printed black on red.

OTOH, I can accept at least some of those refited AHL might serve in IN, but, having TL15 spinal MG and black globes, I guess they would be considered TL15 ships (albeit the TL14 PP would make them inefficient, as it needs double volume).

It states they served the regular IN in the bit I quoted from MT Arrival Vengeance.

first-line forces of CruRon 501 in the Flfth Frontier War, present at the Battle of Rhylanor.

CruRon 501 and 503 counters are identical and printed black on red.

 

[McPerth]

There is a difference.

Regular Imperial squadrons are printed black on red, planetary/colonial squadrons conscripted at the start are named for the world they come from and are printed white on red. Reinforcements are black on red if regular and white on red if colonial.

The AHL counters are numbered regular Imperial Squadrons printed black on red.

In most (if not all) OTU descriptions we have 3 levels of Navy: imperial, Subsector (or reserve) and planetary.

In FFW we have 2 levels of Navy: Imperial an Colonial. If we assume that named Colonial squadrons are planetary while numbered Colonial squadrons are subsector, then we find no subsector navies are in the initial Imperial OB (or they are among the Imperial squadrons)...

That's why I said I wouldn't use it as a reference for this.

 

[Supplement Four]

the fun is in the discussion and digging up canon references

And, I always learn stuff...stuff I didn't know or had forgotten. o:

 

[mike wightman]

In FFW we have 2 levels of Navy: Imperial an Colonial. If we assume that named Colonial squadrons are planetary while numbered Colonial squadrons are subsector, then we find no subsector navies are in the initial Imperial OB (or they are among the Imperial squadrons)...

That's why I said I wouldn't use it as a reference for this.

It could be that planetary navies - and deep site meson guns - are below the resolution of the game. In FFW TL14 appears to be the minimum for inclusion in Imperial colonial fleets - very few planets in the area detailed in the game qualify.

The colonial squadrons - white on red - are the subsector navies plus whatever can be conscripted from planetary navies that are up to the standard.

Regular IN fleets are identified as such, they are TL15 and the FFW details mesh with S:9.

Later MT works even explicitly state the AHL class ship was part of the IN regular Navy, so when you have three (probably more) points of canon that agree on a point...

 

[Brandon C]

The Akerut Lines' Hercules class, being a Bk2 design, uses the drive letter restrictions for TL found in Bk 3 on the big two-page technology table. Any drive higher than U is TL15; it has a W drive or two...

Ah, okay. I haven't used the Book 2 design rules in nearly 3 decades. I remembered the TL performance limits but had forgotten there were drive size limits.

 

[aramis]

Mike, I just don't think that we're going to agree about this. :rant:

Mike's evidence is, to me, much stronger. While your view may be fine for your home games, it's not congruent with the texts defining the OTU.

 

[Supplement Four]

Mike's evidence is, to me, much stronger. While your view may be fine for your home games, it's not congruent with the texts defining the OTU.

LOL. Is it any surprise to you that we don't agree on this?



I will say that I tend to look at CT only, and I try not to be influenced by what has gone on in MT and other Traveller versions after CT. I have a belief that a lot of that stuff was written by people who probably played Traveller for a long time and believed that they were well versed in it, but in reality they really weren't. And, there were massive changes, too, like the standardizing of a skill = +1 DM in MT when when the UTP became official and used widely.

There are a lot of Traveller tropes that have been glossed over, like the effect of a world's TL, even on Naval Bases; the M-Drive and escape velocity; a character with no improved skills being able to roll a task with no penalty, and so on.

 

[mike wightman]

There is a big difference between the CT rule set and the 3I setting.

The CT rules were designed for sandbox play and for referees to make up their own universe, I must have at least a dozen quotes that I can post from MWM interviews that make that point.

The 3I was a setting that GDW developed because the fan base demanded it - somewhere to hang the adventures.

The first couple of supplementary rule books for CT were fairly generic still, although they mentioned an Imperium it was far away and easily replaced with whatever a ref had in their own universe. Rules in those books necessitated a change in the GDW official setting to reflect some of the changes - but supplementary books such as TCS and even some rules in HG are not necessarily reflected in setting.

By they time LBB6 Scouts was published the rule books now described the 3I setting, boxed adventures and the Traveller Adventure detailed the setting, Alien Modules and the SMC finally re-writing the Spinward Marches.

MegaTraveller was an attempt to pull it all together, and that game is most noticeable by the total lack of anything but support for the 3I/Rebellion setting.

 

[Supplement Four]

The CT rules were designed for sandbox play and for referees to make up their own universe, I must have at least a dozen quotes that I can post from MWM interviews that make that point.

This, I think we all know, except it's not stipulated for sandbox play. Although GDW wasn't big on it with their own adventures, the rules would work fine with linear play also.

Coming from D&D to Traveller, BITD, the GDW adventures confused me. I was used to TSR "modules". I had come in after the D&D sandbox original era and right into the big boom of TSR adventures.

The first couple of supplementary rule books for CT were fairly generic still, although they mentioned an Imperium it was far away and easily replaced with whatever a ref had in their own universe.

Which books are these?

 

[mike wightman]

LBB:4 Mercenary and LBB:5 High Guard, both superficially mention the Imperium. LBB6 Scouts is IISS from the world go, LBB7 and 8 are likewise completely dominated by the 3I setting.

 

[aramis]

Which books are these?

Sups 1, 2, & 4. 1001 Characters, Animal Encounters, and Citizens of the Imperium.
Book 4: Mercenary
Adventures 1 and 4 (Kinunir & Leviathan)
Maybe Adv. 2: Prison Planet.

A3 is really the first OTU adventure. It also is filled with library data that is very much OTU.
Book 5 drastically alters the game's encoding of setting into rules. Sup 5 requires Bk5, and post dates it.

I'll note that the description of the Marches in S3 and in A3 are pretty much in line with later OTU, except that the marches don't seem to be quite so far away.

 

[Ishmael]

I looks to me that the discussion of navies, bases and tech level went from CT only, which I have no opinion on as those are for sandbox atu's, to the OTU, in which case, the question is not CT only and has to consider all OTU sources, such as MT and T4 books. They make it clear ( MT Ref's man., Pocket Empires, and Imperial Squadrons ) that building and repairing damaged ships must be done at worlds with a tech level equal or greater than the ship in question; even naval ships. The rules in MT and T4 concerning the OTU is clear about this.
Naval bases, like scout bases exist to perform general maintenance and operational support, not production and repairs to damaged systems.
Pocket Empires goes into a quick level of detail on costs of being maintained/supplied from a different world which gives and indication of how expensive long logistics trains are.
This gives the rationale as to why the canon IN also procures ships in the tech10-14 range, and not exclusively tech 15 ships... ease of maintenance/repair/replacement.

IMTU naval bases provide supply and maintenance to fleets and represent home bases for assigned fleets/squadrons as if the were starport A or B and only for naval ships regardless of tech level.
New ships and repairs to damage must be done at (naval) bases of equal or greater tech level. Non-naval bases can only replace systems with new equipment of that shipyard's tech level only.

Civilian ships may use different tech levels under 15 for maintenance/supply but it is an uncertain task with tech level diff mods which may result in later malfunctions. Systems can be replaced with the shipyard's tech level equipment only, or the ship has to find a starport with proper type and tech level, else replacements have to be ordered for a higher tech system which may be weeks or months away and at greatly added cost.

 

[Supplement Four]

They make it clear ( MT Ref's man., Pocket Empires, and Imperial Squadrons ) that building and repairing damaged ships must be done at worlds with a tech level equal or greater than the ship in question; even naval ships.

Interesting. Which is what I've been saying, though I've been looking at CT sources only.

I've always been attracted to Pocket Empires, but I've never sat down and read it. I need to give it more attention.

 

[mike wightman]

I looks to me that the discussion of navies, bases and tech level went from CT only, which I have no opinion on as those are for sandbox atu's, to the OTU, in which case, the question is not CT only and has to consider all OTU sources, such as MT and T4 books. They make it clear ( MT Ref's man., Pocket Empires, and Imperial Squadrons ) that building and repairing damaged ships must be done at worlds with a tech level equal or greater than the ship in question; even naval ships. The rules in MT and T4 concerning the OTU is clear about this.

Sadly the setting does not agree with the rules - want to know why?
The people who wrote MT were not into ships and didn't do their research.
They applied the rules found in TCS to the 3I setting despite the fact the setting had already made it clear that IN bases are TL15 facilities with the capability to repair, refit, and replace battle damage to the TL15 fleet regardless of local world TL.
The error was then carried forward.

The IN would have lost the FFW in pretty short order if it could only repair at Rhylanor, Trin, Mora and Glisten.

Naval bases, like scout bases exist to perform general maintenance and operational support, not production and repairs to damaged systems.

The books say otherwise. Page 6 of S9 and page 10 of S11.

Pocket Empires goes into a quick level of detail on costs of being maintained/supplied from a different world which gives and indication of how expensive long logistics trains are.
This gives the rationale as to why the canon IN also procures ships in the tech10-14 range, and not exclusively tech 15 ships... ease of maintenance/repair/replacement.

The 1105 IN only procures TL15 warships, it may procure lower TL fleet support ships but it only procures TL15 warships.

IMTU naval bases provide supply and maintenance to fleets and represent home bases for assigned fleets/squadrons as if the were starport A or B and only for naval ships regardless of tech level.
New ships and repairs to damage must be done at (naval) bases of equal or greater tech level. Non-naval bases can only replace systems with new equipment of that shipyard's tech level only.

No probs, but that is not the way CT canon shows it is done in the 1105 3I setting.