How big is General Shipyards?

[rancke]

General Shipyards was introduced in The Kinunir, the very first Traveller adventure. The library data had this to say about it:

The largest starship manufacturer in the Regina Subsector, with yards at Regina, Efate, and Pixie. Originally a military contractor. General no longer produces ships for military use, instead concentrating on the more lucrative commercial market. The yard at Regina is capable of producing ships up to 5000 tons, while the subsidiary yards at Pixie and Efate are limited to 600 tons per ship, and devote most of their attention to annual maintenances.​

This was before HG came out and changed the size of ships in the OTU drastically. Being able to build 5000T ships was seriously impressive -- it was the largest size of ship possible.

Now, however, 5000T is small potatoes. The largest ship possible is 200 times bigger, and the total shipyard capacity of Regina by TCS rules is 700,000T, 140 times as much as GS is capable of (Although it might be argued that GS might be able to build several 5000 ships concurrently). So should General Shipyards be reimagined to make it plausible as the largest starship manufacturer in the Regina subsector? Or should it stay with the canonical shipyard capacities, relegating it to a position as very much not the largest starship producer in the subsector?


Hans

 

[Cryton]

Well, as it was written up during the "small ship universe" OTU, and was capable of building the largest ships in the game, I will vote that it can produce much larger craft than 5000 DTons in the "large ship universe" OTU.

My own game is however, a Small Ship Universe, so in MTU I am leaving it alone there.

.

 

[aramis]

Adv 1 to 4 predate High Guard... 5000Td was the biggest thing the system provided for.

I would suggest that the "Big Ship CT OTU" (BSCTOTU) General can likely go to 500,000. Almost all military craft took a x100 on their size... early Small Ship OTU (SSOTU) "cruisers" ranged 400-800Td, and in the BSCTOTU, run 30,000 to 75KTd. Battleships in the several thousand in the SSOTU, and 100K to 500KTd in the BSCTOTU.

 

[atpollard]

I suggest that General Shipyards controls half of the 700,000 dT shipyard capacity of Regina (350,000 dT), making it the dominant shipbuilder in Regina. [With another 25% of the total capacity (175,000 dT) tied up in non-"General Shipyards" military shipyards, and the remaining 25% of the total capacity (175,000 dT) divided among smaller private yards ... most of which probably specialize - high end yachts or SDBs or annual maintenance.]

I further suggest a General Shipyards maximum ship size of perhaps 250,000 dT ... roughly the largest size that appears in any of the major published sources. [As an aside, I imagine that ships in the 100,000 to 1 million dTon range need a parking orbit more than an enclosed shipyard. So over 100,000 dtons, production capacity rather than dock space becomes the limiting factor. I just don't see as strong a need for 500,000 dT merchant ships as for Military ships, so I imagine General Shipyards scaling back capacity at the absolute upper end of hull size to optimize efficiency at the more moderate commercial sizes ... if 100,000 dT can be viewed as 'moderate'. ]

I would imagine the actual General Shipyards ship construction at any moment would include a single ship at 100,000 dT, 100,000 dT of ships from 10,000 dT to 90,000 dT, 100,000 dT of ships from 1,000 dT to 9,000 dT and perhaps another 50,000 dT of ships from 100 dT to 900 dT.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Timerover51]

It is capable of building as big or as small of ships as the Game Master using it in his game wishes.

 

[rancke]

It is capable of building as big or as small of ships as the Game Master using it in his game wishes.

Irrelevant. I wasn't talking about the General Shipyards of any private Traveller Universe. I'm talking about the General Shipyards in that particular Traveller universe that is the common reference shared by Traveller fans: The Official Traveller Universe.

"You can do whatever you like in your own TU" is not a useful comment.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

The answer will depend about if you are asking about the total shipbuilding capacity or the largest ship they could build.

In the former case, atpollard's answer (based in TCS numbers) seems right to me, while in this case Pixie's shipyards would be irrlevant, and the main GS shipyards would probably be Efate's, not coherent with the quote from Kinunir...

If the question was the latter (maximum ship's size), this will depend on the TL (and here we have another problem about Regina's TL being 10 or 12, but that's another question...).

If you play with Regina being TL 10, its maximum ship size building capacity would be K (so, up to 19999 dton). If you play with Regina being TL 12, maximum ship size built there would be R (199999 dton). In both cases this is due to computing limits (maximum computers being 4 and 6 respectivelly).

In both cases, Efate's shipyards would be able to build ships up to size Y (1 Mdton), as they can build computers 7 (againt not coherent with Kinunir's quote).

In the case of Pixie, limit would come from its population, and here, again, we have another problem...

 

[Garyius2003]

With the 3I Plankwell class modular design is there a maximum size a yard can build?

It isn't like a modern US superlift yard where you need a launching platform or dock of a given size. If the yard can make the superlift sections and carry them to orbit and align for a 200k ship, they can assemble a 1,000k ship.

 

[Dragoner]

Can and does is a different thing; Regina is TL12 by Don's SM v97, TL13 by 1248.

 

[aramis]

I further suggest a General Shipyards maximum ship size of perhaps 250,000 dT ... roughly the largest size that appears in any of the major published sources.

MT Fractured ships has up to 700KTd ships.
CT Fighting Ships has up to 500KTd.

 

[rancke]

With the caveat that I'm expressing my own opinion, not canonical truth.

The answer will depend about if you are asking about the total shipbuilding capacity or the largest ship they could build.

I think it's the same thing unless capacity exceeds the largest ship possible. In TCS capacity is how many tons of ship you can work on simultaneously. It can be one big ship or several medium ships or umpteen small ships as long as they don't sum up to a greater tonnage than the capacity.

In the former case, atpollard's answer (based in TCS numbers) seems right to me, while in this case Pixie's shipyards would be irrlevant, and the main GS shipyards would probably be Efate's, not coherent with the quote from Kinunir...

Yes, Efate with its 8 billion people presents quite a problem for making any company based on Regina the largest in the subsector.

If the question was the latter (maximum ship's size), this will depend on the TL (and here we have another problem about Regina's TL being 10 or 12, but that's another question...).

If you play with Regina being TL 10, its maximum ship size building capacity would be K (so, up to 19999 dton). If you play with Regina being TL 12, maximum ship size built there would be R (199999 dton). In both cases this is due to computing limits (maximum computers being 4 and 6 respectivelly).

I believe Regina has a high common TL of 12 with a space TL Of 13. Your point about computer size is a good one. I've never considered Regina's computer TL. There's no real reason to suppose that it would be better than 12, is there?

I don't believe in breakpoint thinking, so I wouldn't set the limit at 199,999T but rather at some reasonable tonnage below that.

Be that as it may, the size of General Shipyards would IMO be linked to its capacity, not the largest single ship it can build.

In both cases, Efate's shipyards would be able to build ships up to size Y (1 Mdton), as they can build computers 7 (againt not coherent with Kinunir's quote).

There are some ways to fiddle with the figures. Most importantly, TCS only deals with military construction and completely ignores civilian construction[*]. Personally I work with a figure of twice the size of the military fleet for the merchant marine, but the only authority I have for that is a line in Bireme & Galley which I acknowledge is extremely little authority . If someone were to provide some better researched rules of thumb for establishing civilian ship tonnage and civilian shipyard requirement, I'd be happy to work with them instead.

[*] Yes, I know I brought up TCS myself, but that was to point out a minimum, sort-of-canonical, figure for shipyard capacity.​

Secondly, I've always assumed that the TCS figures were averages and that individual worlds could vary a lot. Here it's not (IMO) unreasonable to assume that Regina's political and economic prominence would increase its shipyard capacity (at the expense of, among other worlds, Efate). How much of a variation would be plausible I'm not sure.

Thirdly, TCS figures are for pocket empires that have peacetime military budgets of 8 or 10% of their GWP. The worlds of the Imperium averages 3%. I think that would affect their military shipbuilding. Would it affect the civilian shipbuilding? I've no idea.

In the case of Pixie, limit would come from its population, and here, again, we have another problem...

If Pixie does have a shipyard, all workers and subcomponents would be imported, so the local population (if anyone really accepted a handful of itinerant belters as a local population) would not be involved.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

I think it's the same thing unless capacity exceeds the largest ship possible. In TCS capacity is how many tons of ship you can work on simultaneously. It can be one big ship or several medium ships or umpteen small ships as long as they don't sum up to a greater tonnage than the capacity.

Agreed, as long as you larger ship is not too smaller compared with your building capacity. if you're total building capacity is 700000 and the larger ship you can build is 19999, that matters, as i nthis case you could build ships less than 20000 dtons each, but many of them, and your OP question could mean both, as I understand it.

I don't believe in breakpoint thinking, so I wouldn't set the limit at 199,999T but rather at some reasonable tonnage below that.

Fully agreed in taht. I just quoted what rules allow, not what I (in MTU) do .

 

[rancke]

How does this sound, then:

General Shipyards: The largest starship manufacturer in the Regina Subsector, with yards at Regina, Efate, and Pixie. Originally a military contractor. General no longer produces ships for military use, instead concentrating on the more lucrative commercial market. The yard at Regina has a capacity of around 1,000,000T and has produced ships ranging in size from 1,250T to 180,000T, while the subsidiary yards at Pixie and Efate both have a capacity of around 120,000T, and devote most of their attention to annual maintenances.

Stock ownership: Imperial Family -- 2%, General Products -- 98%.​

Note 1: The yard at Pixie is subsidized by the Imperial Navy for the purpose of maintaining emergency repair facilites in case of war. This enables General Shipyards to give a discount on annual maintenance that compensates its customers for the loss of income the jumps to and from Pixie involves. This in turn allows the customers to offer passenger service at much reduced rates, which in turn makes some people take the detour through Pixie, paying less for two jumps than they would for a direct jump.

(I'm not quite sure the economics hold up, but I think they may. If the trip to Pixie is a sunk cost, anything above the life support costs would be a profit, so a passenger should be able to get from Boughene to Kinorb for, say, 7000 credits.)

Note 2: A number of smaller shipyards at Regina has a total capacity of around 400,000T.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

I like that explanation Hans, and it fits nicely IMTU.

 

[whartung]

How does this sound, then:

General Shipyards: The largest starship manufacturer in the Regina Subsector, with yards at Regina, Efate, and Pixie. Originally a military contractor. General no longer produces ships for military use, instead concentrating on the more lucrative commercial market. The yard at Regina has a capacity of around 1,000,000T and has produced ships ranging in size from 1,250T to 180,000T, while the subsidiary yards at Pixie and Efate both have a capacity of around 120,000T, and devote most of their attention to annual maintenances.
​

None of this talks to how many simultaneous ships may be built/repaired and of what sizes, it does not say what the largest potential ship is (only what was -- could have a capacity of 181Ktons ro 500Ktons).

What governs ship yard capacity? Are shipyards orbital or dirt side? Down here, I guess they're mostly limited by the size and number of dry docks. For a pleasure craft, it's mostly limited to the size of open land, but larger ships have a custom facility to hold the large hulls.

I am not a nautical expert, in theory you can build a large ship on a beach and then launch it in to the water without having a specific dry dock, the dry dock instead being used to repair existing ships (which, once launched are difficult to drag back up on the beach).

Then you have the ship breakers, which I guess float in on the tide, or are somehow dragged up on the beach. But, not real "formal" facilities there: beach, workers, sledgehammers.

Seems to me a ship can be built in orbit by being bolted to a tug, and maybe some maneuvering modules to maintain orbital stability, which can be moved as the hull expands, without necessarily needing a "larger box" to get the keel and frame laid.

Once built, you just need the tugs to hold them in place, so you don't need a dry dock per se for a completed ship needing repairs. Just like many sea ships can be serviced simply tied to a dock, up to a point.

Orbital ship yard capacity becomes limited by shop facilities and personnel.

So, anyway, the basic point is that the description doesn't give a useful breakdown of the shipyards capability (IMHO).​

 

[rancke]

None of this talks to how many simultaneous ships may be built/repaired and of what sizes,

Deliberately so. This is a library data entry, a bit of setting fluff, campaign chrome. It's not supposed to be about rules. If you want rules, get a rules book.

...it does not say what the largest potential ship is (only what was -- could have a capacity of 181Ktons ro 500Ktons).

As I mentioned above, I don't believe in breakpoint thinking, but for those that do, something not too much bigger than 180,000T, like199,999T, might spring to mind.

What governs ship yard capacity?

That has never been stated explicitly. My take? I think it's the infrastructure to produce parts and the equipment and trained workers to put them together.

Are shipyards orbital or dirt side?

There's an old notion about ships above 5000T having to be built in orbit, but I can't recall if it's canon or merely fanon. Certainly building in orbit has to be an option always.

Seems to me a ship can be built in orbit by being bolted to a tug, and maybe some maneuvering modules to maintain orbital stability, which can be moved as the hull expands, without necessarily needing a "larger box" to get the keel and frame laid.

Yes, that's how I see it too.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Are shipyards orbital or dirt side?

There's an old notion about ships above 5000T having to be built in orbit, but I can't recall if it's canon or merely fanon. Certainly building in orbit has to be an option always.

I remmember having already discussed it on other threads, and the only limit we found in rules are that to be built dirtside, a ship must be able to land.

AFAIK, no tonnage limits are give in canon about the capability to land, you just need to be streamlined if the planet in question has atmosphere, and the only limits reference I found in canon is that Naval bases have capacity to service ships up to 1000 dton dirtside, larger ships being serviced at orbital facilities (but that does not imply larger ships cannot land, of course).

IIRC there was some soft consensus about the maximum size thought to be landed was 5000 dtons (as Hans says), larger ships only being streamlined for GG skimming pourpose (or because the configuration they use for other pourposes, like defense against mesons, is streamlined), but that was not really supported (again AFAIK) by any cannon reference.

 

[whartung]

What governs ship yard capacity?

That has never been stated explicitly. My take? I think it's the infrastructure to produce parts and the equipment and trained workers to put them together.

No, I think so too. I think it's a materiel, labor, and fabrication problem rather than a space (as in square/cubic footage) problem. You can have a starship shipyard in Iowa, for example.

A TU shipyard should be pretty nimble, and would be "as big as it needs to be". That capacity would should scale up quite quickly (year, 18 months to train new workers) should the need arise, given sufficient raw material.

 

[savage]

food for thought...

Rancke2 it a a nice generalization of Regina capacity.

No, I think so too. I think it's a materiel, labor, and fabrication problem rather than a space (as in square/cubic footage) problem. You can have a starship shipyard in Iowa, for example.

A TU shipyard should be pretty nimble, and would be "as big as it needs to be". That capacity would should scale up quite quickly (year, 18 months to train new workers) should the need arise, given sufficient raw material.

Good point about building a ship in Iowa. The use of gravitics changes some of the perceived preconceptions. Orbital Facilities are not the only answer and in MTU grav sleds (like tugs) do the dirty work at larger government subsidized ports.
Everyone, another point is commerce, there is no reason to assume computers are built at Regina.
The starport description gives travellers and military a comprehension of the capacity of the primary starport and "supported" tech level. Kinunir was built planetside but General Shipyards but they could have a moonbase facility in system doing numerous activities outside of the scope of the government's watchful eyes.
Hence, wartime construction capacity could be ramped up quickly if private commercial entities we're given high priority government contracts.

 

[oldgamergeek]

MTU is a small ship universe for the most part but General Shipyards can build much,much larger vessels.