I would envision all construction over 5ktons to occur in orbit; some of this is the assembly of prefab modular hull sections built elsewhere, but Most inolves building as much as possible of the hull in orbit. Fixtures may be manufactured offsite, but many of these factories are in orbit, as well. Maneuver from a few km's away can be done at .01G, but boosting to orbit requires a streamlined craft. The jigs, fixtures, and scaffolding required are much reduced in orbit.
How big is General Shipyards?
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
Adv 1 to 4 predate High Guard... 5000Td was the biggest thing the system provided for.
QUOTE]
I don't have Adventure 1 anymore, but IIRC it was a High Guard design. Did I just make that up? (I do have a talent...)
I don't have Adventure 1 anymore, but IIRC it was a High Guard design. Did I just make that up? (I do have a talent...
It was a Book 2 design. An HG version was later published in Fighting Ships (Increasing the tonnage from 1200 to 1250).
Hans
It is more correct to say it is some form of hybrid design. It appears to have used some draft materials from HG'79...
A1:Kinunir p.10 said:
Plus, of course, the Black Globe.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
When I look at this question I try to envision how the Imperium / Traveller universe compares to say 19th Century or early 20th Century ship building on Earth.
That means that Imperium-wide to me there are maybe a dozen or two shipyards capable of building a "battleship" or "carrier" say of 100,000+ tons That means most yards do less. That General Shipyards is on the fringe of the Imperium, in what is essentially the best part of a backwater would to me mean it has limited capacity compared to that.
So, while I think the 5,000 ton limit is low I'd say a 50,000 ton limit would be reasonable. I can't see a yard on the edge of nowhere so-to-speak building battleships but rather building reasonable sized vessels for the region it is located. A 50,000 ton merchant would be pretty useful in the Spinward Marches. A 500,000 ton merchant not so much. Having capacity to repair a 500,000 ton battleship would simply be a wasted asset at such a yard.
I would also say if you were a Far Trader Captain with a 200 or 300 ton ship wanting repairs General would tell you to get lost or want to charge you a premium for the work. This would be like a VW Beetle owner wanting a Formula 1 garage to fix your car. They have better things to do than muck about with some loser with pocket change.
That's my opinion here.
That means that Imperium-wide to me there are maybe a dozen or two shipyards capable of building a "battleship" or "carrier" say of 100,000+ tons That means most yards do less. That General Shipyards is on the fringe of the Imperium, in what is essentially the best part of a backwater would to me mean it has limited capacity compared to that.
So, while I think the 5,000 ton limit is low I'd say a 50,000 ton limit would be reasonable. I can't see a yard on the edge of nowhere so-to-speak building battleships but rather building reasonable sized vessels for the region it is located. A 50,000 ton merchant would be pretty useful in the Spinward Marches. A 500,000 ton merchant not so much. Having capacity to repair a 500,000 ton battleship would simply be a wasted asset at such a yard.
I would also say if you were a Far Trader Captain with a 200 or 300 ton ship wanting repairs General would tell you to get lost or want to charge you a premium for the work. This would be like a VW Beetle owner wanting a Formula 1 garage to fix your car. They have better things to do than muck about with some loser with pocket change.
That's my opinion here.
The population of the US has been growing and building infrastructure around 500 years starting with a TL of 4 and has a population of 300 million today. Regina's population has been growing and building infrastructure for around 1000 years starting with a TL several levels above Earth today and has a population of 700 million by the Classic Era. It has also (so I believe (non-canon alert)) been a trade hub almost from the very beginning.
Regina isn't a backwater world. See above.
Hans
Excellent point, Hans. The numbers are obviously hard-and-fast rules from a ruleset, whereas things in real life are almost never that cut-n-dried. My hard disk has an advertised capacity, but I know from experience that the closer it gets to capacity the less likely it will reach it, and the more it will slow down... Now _there's_ something to work into a game.
"Your advertised capacity is NNN, and I see only 60% of that tonnage currently in port, so explain AGAIN why you can't fix my jump drive for a month?"
"Well sorr, alla ma crew's rotatin' thru diffeernt jobs, ya see, and the Count over there has just axed fer a stateroon to be replaced wit a triple-tub 'fresher! Treble the price, o'course, but he can pay, an' you caint, capice?"
(Although worrying about 'port efficency in the face of available skills, leaves of absence, turnover, etc sounds too much like what some of us probably experience on a daily basis. Don't know if you'd want to add all that dren to a Trav game...)
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Lenght of time has nothing to do with capacity. Need has to do with capacity. How much shipping is needed and what size will determine yard size. If there is no need for 100,000 ton warships being constructed on a regular basis then the yard isn't going to have that capacity. They will either downsize if they had it or will add it if needed.
The yard size will fit what they regularly build, sell, and repair. The US had shipbuilding capacity determined over its history, just like Britain based on economics and need for ships. Neither built capacity they couldn't use and if they had excess capacity it was gotten rid of as an unnecessary expense.
You need time to build the infrastructure to meet the need. Regina has had all the time required.
Agreed. And 700 million people generate a lot of trade and a lot of taxes. Being a border world would make people feel the need for defenses. Regina's defense budget is almost certainly higher than the Imperial average.
EDIT: Also keep in mind that (as mentioned in a previous post) I'm assuming that Regina's political and economic prominence has allowed it to attract more than its fair share of the shipbuilding to meet the transport needs of other worlds in the subsector.
Hans
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Enoki
SOC-14 1K
More like build and rebuild. Shipyards of the 17th and 18th centuries built wooden sailing ships. In the 19th they moved to steam and iron / steel. In the 20th things like nuclear power.
Then the size, type, and quantity of ships needed would change too. That would also effect the capacity of yards. Like today on Earth there is only one shipyard that has the capacity to build a super-carrier. There are only a handful that can build a super-tanker or large naval combatant. Another handful specializes in things like submarines.
On the other hand there are a good number that can build smaller commercial ships, small naval combatants, and things like large yachts.
I'd think the same applies here. One yard isn't likely to do it all. Any yard will only have the capacity to build what it finds it can make a profit on and that is based on demand.
So, if the original premise is that General got out of the naval construction business for the most part I'd think their capacity would be based on the average size of a freighter / liner and that that, in turn, would be based on the amount of trade within some given distance of Regina.
Actually, there are a dozen or so that are physically capable of it. What they lack is the practical experience. Any yard that can build a megafreighter (those well past panamax) can build an aircraft carrier if given the components for the cats and arresting gear - which are, fundamentally, about the only components unique to supercarriers. Nuke plants can be built in about half a dozen yards, elevators aren't unique, and the hull metal fabrication isn't unique either.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Actually, there is alot more speciality to it. Super carrier hulls are fabricated from armor plate requiring special welding techniques. Their complexity is far greater just in terms of hull design and interior construction than a tanker is. So, a yard that can build a really large freighter or tanker cannot build a carrier.
As for components, not just the flight deck equipment is unique. The weapons systems are, the combat systems in general are, sensors are, the engineering plant besides the reactors is far, far more complex.
Having served on them, as well as having worked in numerous shops in Navy yards along with the ship's superintendent's office I have some degree of expert knowledge on these things.
For example to weld the armor together the plates require pre-heating using large heating pads so that they are at the right temperature to prevent embrittlement of the steel when welded. Not done right the weld forms a weak point between the two plates and cracking of the seam can occur.
While I can't give details on how the hull is set up and compartmentalized I will say that there are literally an expotential more of compartments in a carrier than a mega freighter or tanker.
This is why China chose to refit an ex-Russian carrier rather than build one from scratch, the same with India.
Everything you've mentioned so far simply indicates skillset more than hardware. Armor welding techniques are relatively well understood, albeit not practiced, and acquisition of the tools is of rather trivial (if expensive) effort. The skill is the major missing component.
Further, there are over a dozen warship capable yards with experience building armored hulls.
China buying a used Russian carrier indicates only that China felt it would be less expensive and faster, not that they couldn't convert a slip to build one.
The UK built their own fleet carriers, and could do so again. Not even all of their metallurgists nor welders from their last are dead.
The Italians have a yard capable of building large cruisers. Lacking: Skills and current equipment.
Hyudai reps have bragged that they have the capability to build a carrier if anyone cares to pay them to... but it would go into the currently 7+ year waiting list for major hulls... and take at least 5 past that. And there's little commercial call for a carrier.
The Soviets had at least one yard capable of a major carrier - but it wasn't what the US would call a supercarier. (Soviet carriers were BC hulls with a flat-top.) Still, they're in the ballpark, and the yard could retool if the Russian had the money. Or the customers.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I haven't read through every post in this thread, just hit the beginning and end so I don't know how the discussion shifted to super carriers and hope my post makes sense.
Commercial vs Military and possibly Government/Noble/Mercenary
There is a difference between a commercial shipyard and a more specialized shipyard. As has occurred in the past, it's not too difficult for commercial facilities to be converted when there is a need.
The demand is not there for every shipyard to put certain equipment in place for unique construction or keeping specialized personnel employed. It's costly to implement all the security measures and more detailed inspection and oversight requirements just so that you can bid on the specialized contracts and probably lose.
General Shipyards
Isn't this the name of a specific company's facilities? Change it if you wish or keep it the same. Heck, put them out of business and create a whole new company that produces whatever size ships you want.
Personally I don't see why this is something you need other peoples input on.
Where is the poll option for "General Shipyards does not exist in MTU"?
Commercial vs Military and possibly Government/Noble/Mercenary
There is a difference between a commercial shipyard and a more specialized shipyard. As has occurred in the past, it's not too difficult for commercial facilities to be converted when there is a need.
The demand is not there for every shipyard to put certain equipment in place for unique construction or keeping specialized personnel employed. It's costly to implement all the security measures and more detailed inspection and oversight requirements just so that you can bid on the specialized contracts and probably lose.
General Shipyards
Isn't this the name of a specific company's facilities? Change it if you wish or keep it the same. Heck, put them out of business and create a whole new company that produces whatever size ships you want.
Personally I don't see why this is something you need other peoples input on.
Where is the poll option for "General Shipyards does not exist in MTU"?
It is the name of a very specific company, namely the largest starship manufacturer in the Regina subsector. Which is impossible to reconcile with a total shipyard capacity of 6200T given that the military capacity of Regina alone is at a minimum in the hundreds of thousands. The question was therefore which of two equally canonical facts people thought should be changed to improve the verisimilitude of the OTU. Not my TU, not your TU, not any of their TUs, but the OTU. Or as I like to think of it, our common frame of reference.
With a poll that deals with private TUs instead of the OTU. So not this one.
Hans
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Personally, we started playing before some of these OTU materials came out. I and nobody I've ever played with at the time owned but a fraction of the publications. We definitely played in a MTU small ship universe. I thought that the unmodified small ship or proto universe was OTU? Are there multiple variations of OTUs?
I still may be able to contribute, please continue to enlighten me though.
First, there are times when one publication contradicts another and unless it is an error, we assume the most recent takes precedence.
If General Shipyards is the "largest starship manufacturer in the Regina subsector" and General no longer produces ships for military use.
1) does "largest starship manufacturer" refer to quantity in numbers?
2) does "largest starship manufacturer" refer to maximum size?
3) does "largest starship manufacturer" refer to total tonnage output?
4) could "largest starship manufacturer" be "largest COMMERCIAL starship manufacturer"? Where are those military starships being created and what capabilities do they have?
5) heck, "largest starship manufacturer" could mean they employ the most people, own the most real property or just about anything.
There could still be multiple other manufacturers putting out ships, possibly even larger than 5000 tons, no?
It's said that the total shipyard capacity of Regina by TCS rules is 700,000T. Does this refer to military capacity? Commercial ships? All starships?
Are there any dates in play? Are all the different times used in publication considered Traveller OTU? Does this have any baring on the "facts" in play making something non canon? Could General have grown from when one piece of data is given to the next?
Question: Does the Traveller CD include all the publications considered part of the OTU?
I still may be able to contribute, please continue to enlighten me though.
First, there are times when one publication contradicts another and unless it is an error, we assume the most recent takes precedence.
If General Shipyards is the "largest starship manufacturer in the Regina subsector" and General no longer produces ships for military use.
1) does "largest starship manufacturer" refer to quantity in numbers?
2) does "largest starship manufacturer" refer to maximum size?
3) does "largest starship manufacturer" refer to total tonnage output?
4) could "largest starship manufacturer" be "largest COMMERCIAL starship manufacturer"? Where are those military starships being created and what capabilities do they have?
5) heck, "largest starship manufacturer" could mean they employ the most people, own the most real property or just about anything.
There could still be multiple other manufacturers putting out ships, possibly even larger than 5000 tons, no?
It's said that the total shipyard capacity of Regina by TCS rules is 700,000T. Does this refer to military capacity? Commercial ships? All starships?
Are there any dates in play? Are all the different times used in publication considered Traveller OTU? Does this have any baring on the "facts" in play making something non canon? Could General have grown from when one piece of data is given to the next?
Question: Does the Traveller CD include all the publications considered part of the OTU?
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It's the largest starship manufacturer after it stopped producing ships for military use.
Largest net worth, largest workforce, largest infrastructure. Would you say that a yard with 10 people that built two yachts every time a yard with 1000 people built a supertanker was larger?
Conceivably, but it wouldn't help with the discrepancy.
I think the consensus is that the Imperial Navy gets its ships built at civilian shipyards, but I won't swear to it.
There's a pretty strong correlation between what a company can produce and the number of people needed to produce it.
There is a mention somewhere of much larger bulk transports than a mere 5000T. I can't find it right now, unfortunately. But hundred of millions of people generate a lot of trade. Interstellar trade is only a small fraction of that, but even small fractions amount to large numbers in absolute figures if your talking about hundreds of millions of people.
Military ships only. TCS completely ignores civilian shipbuilding and maintenance. It's also subject to interpretation. Does the military shipyard capacity of a world with a military budget of 3% of GWP equal the capacity of a similar world with a budget of 8 or 10% of GWP? And is the military budget of Regina higher than the average of 3% for Imperial worlds? How much higher?
No. It's all down to the same library data entry, the one I quoted in the original post.
Hans
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Perhaps not but how about:
Two yards.
One employs thousands of more people and takes up lots more real estate as it can build 10 ships up to 4000 tons simultaneously in the same time as the other can build just a single ship up to 5000 tons.
The question here: Is largest solely based on the largest possible ship? If you think so, go to A and ignore B. If largest might mean something else, skip A and go to B.
A
Slight change. Two yards.
One employs thousands of more people and takes up lots more real estate as it can build 10 ships up to 5000 tons simultaneously in the same time as the other can build just a single ship up to 5000 tons.
Since you selected A, then you believe the size of the shipyard is based solely the largest possible ship. Since both of the above yards produce the same maximum size ship, are they the same size or is one larger, and if so, why?
B
Two yards.
One can build only 100 ton ships but employs more people and occupies a larger footprint in regards to real estate as they build 25 ships at a time and can do 50 ships total while another shipyard can only build a single ship up to 5000 tons in the same amount of time.
Which is larger? Why?
Why not? Couldn't General still be the largest commercial shipyard? The military ships are being built somewhere else. Or maybe I don't understand the discrepancies.
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I don't really see a need for change. Despite the big upgrading implicit in High Guard, the Spinward Marches is still really a frontier sector: lots and lots of low pop worlds. If you latch onto that GURPS bit, the vast majority of Spinward commercial traffic is in ships of 5000 dT or smaller, with only a few places having need for anything bigger. Thus, General can still be the biggest manufacturer in the Marches even if it's limited to 5000 dT.
The only real sticking point is tech level. General's building at a TL 12 world, ships aren't as efficient and cost more than the TL 15 models coming out of Trin, Mora, Glisten and Rhylanor. Hard to see how General could dominate the field with those unless there's some specific factor that weights the commercial environment in their favor. I figure maintenance and repair, the need to make ships that can be repaired with the technology available at their respective home ports is a part of it.
On the other hand, Kinunir required TL 13 jump drives, as did its Model 7-fib computer, those particle accelerators are TL 14, and the black globe's TL 15. I'm leaning toward tossing that canon rule about starport tech level out and ruling that tech level applies to the local economy and starports can import equipment and parts for their building from elsewhere in the sector - kinda like they did in MegaTrav when they went to all TL 15 ships in order to make them cost close to what they had originally cost. Under that model, I don't have to deal with the far-future equivalent of expensive coal-fired steamers competing with cheaper gas-turbine cruise ships - except of course in the Sword Worlds and other such pockets where politics and circumstances interfere with trade. The populations of Trin, Mora, Glisten, and Rhylanor constitute 14% of the Imperial Marches population; their industry should be up to the task.
The only real sticking point is tech level. General's building at a TL 12 world, ships aren't as efficient and cost more than the TL 15 models coming out of Trin, Mora, Glisten and Rhylanor. Hard to see how General could dominate the field with those unless there's some specific factor that weights the commercial environment in their favor. I figure maintenance and repair, the need to make ships that can be repaired with the technology available at their respective home ports is a part of it.
On the other hand, Kinunir required TL 13 jump drives, as did its Model 7-fib computer, those particle accelerators are TL 14, and the black globe's TL 15. I'm leaning toward tossing that canon rule about starport tech level out and ruling that tech level applies to the local economy and starports can import equipment and parts for their building from elsewhere in the sector - kinda like they did in MegaTrav when they went to all TL 15 ships in order to make them cost close to what they had originally cost. Under that model, I don't have to deal with the far-future equivalent of expensive coal-fired steamers competing with cheaper gas-turbine cruise ships - except of course in the Sword Worlds and other such pockets where politics and circumstances interfere with trade. The populations of Trin, Mora, Glisten, and Rhylanor constitute 14% of the Imperial Marches population; their industry should be up to the task.
Either the first or they are pretty much the same size.
Why? Largest net worth, largest workforce, largest infrastructure. It may be controversial which of several companies is the largest, the answer may be different depending on what exact criteria one judges by, but a company with a capacity of a mere 6200T isn't going to be anywhere near the top.
If military ships are built by civilian shipyards there is no difference. They'll all be commercial shipyards, both the ones building military ships and the ones building civilian ships. And General Shipyards was presumably a civilian company back in the days when it was building military ships, so whoever took over its contracts are probably civilian shipyards too. (And at the risk of being accused of Yanks-in-Spacing, I believe that's also the usual practice in many countries today).
Hans
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