How Do *You* Calculate YTU's Budgets?
- Thread starter RainOfSteel
- Start date
D'OH! Yes, I've made that mistake before.
0.25% is too low. In that case, I would have the tail wag the dog, and say that the Imperium only pulls in TCr800.
Even more than before, it makes me think the Imperium pulls income from the trade between the worlds, rather than from the worlds themselves.
It's an IMTU thing, isn't it?
0.25% is too low. In that case, I would have the tail wag the dog, and say that the Imperium only pulls in TCr800.
Even more than before, it makes me think the Imperium pulls income from the trade between the worlds, rather than from the worlds themselves.
It's an IMTU thing, isn't it?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Any world generating a World Level Noble Stipend in the billions would probably be presided over by a Margrave (OTU: Marquis). Baron's are probably left with the worlds generating only millions or tens of millions (the majority of low-pop worlds).
I don't know about that. Looking at a mere 8 Quadrillion Credits, and thinking about how that has to be spread around . . . The IN alone is going to cost a bundle, and that's not even considering the IM, IISS, all the Ministries, and YTU's covert services, it's all going to take a lot.
Better than that, all those trillions are going to be fought over on Capital, for the sophont who secures a line of IG funds goes on to wield a great deal of power.
Why, thank you, sir.
They certainly make me think quite a bit.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
And the TCS budgetary calculations were declared non-canon, IIRC (from reading TML posts years after it happened).
BK Ship Costs: HG2
</font>
- Tigress: 362 Billion (In Qty)</font>
- Plankwell: 120 Billion (In Qty)</font>
- Kokkirak: 135 Billion (In Qty)</font>
That's not nearly large enough, or at least it isn't large enough for danger points like the Solomani Rim and the Spinward Marches (and Core probably gets quite a bit, too, to prevent by military strength a recurrence of the Civil War).
Well, that would be a little less than 2.5% of the IAB. Personally, I think it would be higher. The 3I is heavily military, a lot of its noble traditions (not all, of course) center around military service, etc. It has far less entitlements and social projects (not none, just far fewer) than the USA today. I think they could go five to ten percent.
Well, my system (a variant of TML-poster Richard Aiken's personal system):
</font>
- Each Member World has its GWP.</font>
- The Imperium taxes 2% of the GWP during peace, and 4% during war.</font>
- This amount of this tax is the MWC.</font>
- 66% of the MWC goes to the Subsector. 33% is in the hands of the World's Noble to administer for the benefit and development (and defense if necessary) of the world. 1% is pocked by the World's Noble as "stipend".</font>
- This repeats.</font>
- The subsector's combined take of it's share of the MWC's is the Subsector Total Collection (SuTC).</font>
- 66% of the SuTC goes on the Sector (Subsector Contribution), 33% is administered by the Count to run the Imperium's subsector affairs (OTU: Subsector Duke), and 1% is pocketed by the Count.</font>
- The sector's take of all SuTCs is the Sector Total Collection (STC).</font>
- 66% of the STC goes onto the Imperium (aka the "Imperial Contribution"), 33% of the STC is administered by the Duke, and 1% is pocketed by the Duke.</font>
- The tables I posted don't show it, but the Emperor pockets his 1% of the Imperial Annual Budget, or 80+ Trillion Credits. Every. Single. Year. The Emperor's family is wealthy beyond imagination. Even the Duke of the Solomani Rim is far behind. Only the CEOs of the Solomani-run Imperial Megacorporations come even close. IMTU, large fractions of this huge amount of money wind up getting plowed back into the Imperium in various ways (capital for needed IN ships and other military projects, one-shot endowed charity projects of all sizes, gifts (the Emperor's generosity knows no bounds), etc.).</font>
No, the figures in the tables I posted earlier are the final figures available for the sector and Imperial levels. The remains of the taxes that reach up that high. The Sum of the GWPs of all the worlds (before taxation), is: 953,946,871,162,594,000; or 953.9 Quadrillion Credits.
Now you know why I have a law in MTU's 3I where Member Worlds (meant mostly for the High-Tech, High-Pop worlds), are not allowed jump capable military vessels without a per-vessel approval from the Duke, and none may exceed 100,000 tons (this is HG2 type rulings, they would be different for strict T20 design and combat, because of the different effect of spinal mounts).
It's more likely I didn't provide enough description.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
So, IYTU, is the "1000 ships" figure for dreadnoughts only, or does it include cruisers et al? Are there more than a dozen Tigresses in your Spinward Marches?
(The thought of buying Tigresses in quantity scares the bejeezis out of me!) </font>[/QUOTE]But buying a BatRon of them is buying in Quantity. And there is an 8 Ship BatRon of them in the 5 Sisters Subsector (Supp-9). Personally I am not all that impressed by the Tigress. Give me Kokirraks any day.
Very well. Yes, Kokirraks are a better deal, hence their popularity. I suspect Tigresses have intimidation value to boot.
Anyhow, IMTU, the "budget" derives largely from the Imperium's maintenance and replacement budget...
Assuming a ratio of 3-12-48:
3 carrier or battleship (100-500 kt) to
12 heavy cruisers (40-80 kt) to
48 destroyers & light cruisers (10-30 kt)
(not included in the mix: escorts and misc support ships)
and wildy assuming the cost of a military ship at a slightly high BCr1 per ton, I guesstimate the volume and price of a conglomerated 63 random ships at 2.3 mega-tons and TCr 2.3, respectively.
That yields sector and Imperial naval assets at TCr36 and TCr700+.
I'm not sure how battle riders impact these numbers...
Anyhow, IMTU, the "budget" derives largely from the Imperium's maintenance and replacement budget...
Assuming a ratio of 3-12-48:
3 carrier or battleship (100-500 kt) to
12 heavy cruisers (40-80 kt) to
48 destroyers & light cruisers (10-30 kt)
(not included in the mix: escorts and misc support ships)
and wildy assuming the cost of a military ship at a slightly high BCr1 per ton, I guesstimate the volume and price of a conglomerated 63 random ships at 2.3 mega-tons and TCr 2.3, respectively.
That yields sector and Imperial naval assets at TCr36 and TCr700+.
I'm not sure how battle riders impact these numbers...
For comparison to GURPS Traveller:
Using the GDP rules in GT:Far Trader, the Imperial Worlds in the Spinward Marches have a combined GDP of approximately QCr1.2 The Imperial Worlds in the Solomani Rim have a combined GDP of approximately QCr 11. This is in CrImps; total in local credits will be higher.
A rather measly 1% for the IN, in the Marches, works out to TCr 12 per year, or about TCr 120 total fleets for the entire Marches (10% maintenance is higher than the actual ship rules work out; assume the remaining costs are for other support requirements). GT heavy warships in my experience average 0.6 MCr per dton, so that's approximately 200 million dtons of military shipping. That's actually not out of hand for having a thousand capital ships in the Marches. Of course, it does imply ten thousand capital ships in the Rim, and about three thousand in Deneb sector.
The total Imperial GDP is approximately QCr100.
Using the GDP rules in GT:Far Trader, the Imperial Worlds in the Spinward Marches have a combined GDP of approximately QCr1.2 The Imperial Worlds in the Solomani Rim have a combined GDP of approximately QCr 11. This is in CrImps; total in local credits will be higher.
A rather measly 1% for the IN, in the Marches, works out to TCr 12 per year, or about TCr 120 total fleets for the entire Marches (10% maintenance is higher than the actual ship rules work out; assume the remaining costs are for other support requirements). GT heavy warships in my experience average 0.6 MCr per dton, so that's approximately 200 million dtons of military shipping. That's actually not out of hand for having a thousand capital ships in the Marches. Of course, it does imply ten thousand capital ships in the Rim, and about three thousand in Deneb sector.
The total Imperial GDP is approximately QCr100.
Question: does that GDP number represent Cr generated via interstellar trade, or is it simply a total of world GDPs?
A thousand capital ships in the Marches!!
...and only ten Imperial subsectors in the Marches, right?
That's 100 capital ships ( = dreadnoughts/battleships) per subsector?
And, since cruisers and the like are much more numerous than capital ships, well, that's quite a heavy presence there.
I admit MTU is leaner, more CT: Imperial forces "cannot be everywhere at once" (HG p.1).
A thousand capital ships in the Marches!!
...and only ten Imperial subsectors in the Marches, right?
That's 100 capital ships ( = dreadnoughts/battleships) per subsector?
And, since cruisers and the like are much more numerous than capital ships, well, that's quite a heavy presence there.
I admit MTU is leaner, more CT: Imperial forces "cannot be everywhere at once" (HG p.1).
That's a total of world GDPs. Trade is substantially less. Basically, in order to fit with the 'Imperial forces cannot be everywhere at once' given in canon, if you mean they can't even drop a destroyer in any given system to discourage piracy, one of the following is required:
1) Imperial military expenditures are so low they're nearly invisible. This has the consequence that if a Hi-pop world decides to start building warships, it can probably build a personal fleet sufficient to destroy the entire sector fleet all by itself. For example, of the total GWP of the Imperial section of the Marches, roughly 20% is Mora.
2) Populations of Hi-pop worlds must drop dramatically. This reduces GWPs, with cascade effects on budgets.
3) There have to be _many_ more stars on the map.
1) Imperial military expenditures are so low they're nearly invisible. This has the consequence that if a Hi-pop world decides to start building warships, it can probably build a personal fleet sufficient to destroy the entire sector fleet all by itself. For example, of the total GWP of the Imperial section of the Marches, roughly 20% is Mora.
2) Populations of Hi-pop worlds must drop dramatically. This reduces GWPs, with cascade effects on budgets.
3) There have to be _many_ more stars on the map.
I'm more worried about the other extreme where there's an Imperial squadron of Kokirraks in every solar system.
High pop worlds building squadrons... Perhaps these worlds are building and maintaining the sector's Imperial forces.
Thus, in order to 'own' the Spinward Marches (minimally), the Imperium needs only control the shipbuilding facilities on Mora, Strouden, Trin, and Glisten?
High pop worlds building squadrons... Perhaps these worlds are building and maintaining the sector's Imperial forces.
Thus, in order to 'own' the Spinward Marches (minimally), the Imperium needs only control the shipbuilding facilities on Mora, Strouden, Trin, and Glisten?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And Lunion, Rhylanor, and possibly Efate
The list of important worlds is really Mora, Trin, Glisten, and Rhylanor; any of those worlds has at least nine times the GWP of Strouden. After the top four, go with Lunion, Efate and Porozlo (the TL difference makes any of those significantly weaker than the top three).
Hm...20% for Mora seems high, at least if you go with the P number of 1 given in CT (the 30 billion in BtC makes it a lot more likely). I think I have a math error somewhere. I think it's actually 12-15%. Still, control the top four and you can control the sector.
Hm...20% for Mora seems high, at least if you go with the P number of 1 given in CT (the 30 billion in BtC makes it a lot more likely). I think I have a math error somewhere. I think it's actually 12-15%. Still, control the top four and you can control the sector.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
So, IYTU, is the "1000 ships" figure for dreadnoughts only, or does it include cruisers et al? Are there more than a dozen Tigresses in your Spinward Marches?
(The thought of buying Tigresses in quantity scares the bejeezis out of me!) </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't propose "1000 ships", or anything like it.
However, I don't object. I'm a big ships and lots of them type of person.
The Imperium employes a couple of billion sentients in pursuit of its operations. Or at least, I think it does. (I'll have to do some better estimates, that's pretty off-the-cuff.) Maybe only a billion?
The IN is TL-15. I'd think a pretty low TL-15 salary would be Cr40,000/yr (before you object, remember, this is 7 TLs above 21st Century Earth, and in High-Tech and highly educated societies, you have to offer big incentives to get people to join the military, and I fear it's only going to get worse).
With training, insurance/death-benefits, retirement benfits, salary, wastage, and plain corruption, plus the rising pay scale for higher ranks, and I think Cr150,000/yr/sailor would not be an unreasonable average personnel cost (excluding all Admiralty from the averges; as their salaries are, IMTU, much larger, averging in the tens of millions per each to start; and again, before you object, look at the huge sums of money flowing through the hands of the *big* nobles, and you'll realize Admirals will have to be well-paid).
Est. 1 Billion Sailors * Cr150,000/yr Cost = 150 Trillion just in annual personnel costs.
That right there would eat a big chunk of the Cr800 Trillion out of the 10% of the current IAB I have estimated.
If we take the IM, we're definitely looking at 1 Billion Marines. If the average cost is the same, that's another Cr150 Trillion.
Cr300 Trillion for the personnel of the IN/IM? Now that Cr800 Trillion doesn't look quite so hefty.
If we go up on those personnel estimates, the costs go up as well.
Let's also not forget that the IN must maintain a fleet sufficient to move a large portion of those 1 Billion marines at a time. How much? 5%? 10%? The costs would stagger even the IAB.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
It depends on whether you are talking HG2 or T20.Originally posted by Bhoins:
But buying a BatRon of them is buying in Quantity. And there is an 8 Ship BatRon of them in the 5 Sisters Subsector (Supp-9). Personally I am not all that impressed by the Tigress. Give me Kokirraks any day.More spinals per credit. (More bang for your buck.)
In HG2, the Tigresse's size is to it's advantage against spinal mount fire.
500,000 dTons is Size Code V, or greater than the Code T spinal mount, providing protection by avoiding all those extra damage rolls and critical hits.
200,000 dTons is Size Code S, or less than the Code T spinal mount, providing extra vulnerability.
In strict T20, all bets are off, and many small ships loaded up with meson spinals pretty much rule the day.
Naturally, because T20's combat related to spinal mounts is so different from HG2, I would not run strict T20 navy combat as presented in the THB.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Just a note, the GT:Far Trader calculations are what I'm using. I'm just not using the unconvertible GT:Credits. If I was, the amount shown would be much lower.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
More layers of bureaucracy? Well, maybe.
Technically, I structure my nobility differently than the OTU. The Viscount and Count control regions in the OTU that aren't detailed anywhere, and therefore I find it difficult to include planning of unknown regions in MTU's development. Frankly, even if the "viscounties" and "counties" of the Imperium were fully detailed tomorrow, I wouldn't be including them in MTU (though I wouldn't be unhappy at the presence of the extra information).
Organizationally speaking, adding in "viscounties" and "counties" simply messes up what I see as a clear and clean system.
</font>
Technically, I structure my nobility differently than the OTU. The Viscount and Count control regions in the OTU that aren't detailed anywhere, and therefore I find it difficult to include planning of unknown regions in MTU's development. Frankly, even if the "viscounties" and "counties" of the Imperium were fully detailed tomorrow, I wouldn't be including them in MTU (though I wouldn't be unhappy at the presence of the extra information).
Organizationally speaking, adding in "viscounties" and "counties" simply messes up what I see as a clear and clean system.
</font>
- Minor World</font>
- Mainworld</font>
- Subsector</font>
- Sector</font>
- Imperium</font>
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I don't have FFW or I:E. I haven't felt the need to run out and get them, either. In previous discussions about them, the best I've been able to determine is that they were meant to be balanced playable games, not accurate simulations of what actually went on in the OTU.
Is that for the Spinward Marches based on FFW, or the Solomani Rim based on I:E?
As for the figures I tossed out for both the IN and IM, I did mention they were off-the-cuff. I hadn't done any real estimate work on it.
However, if we go with 30 Million/Sector, about 18 full and 10 partial sectors:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">18 * 30,000,000 = 540,000,000
10 * 8,000,000 = 80,000,000
-----------
Total 620,000,000</pre>[/QUOTE]
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