My day job is in Education. It's the kind of mistake that costs you the problem, even if you did the rest of the math right.
CT Only: How do you create space-stations?
- Thread starter tim_manley
- Start date
My day job is in Education. It's the kind of mistake that costs you the problem, even if you did the rest of the math right.
Atomic Mass 1 hydrogen, aka "light hydrogen" is properly called protium.
liquid, between 950 and 1000 kg, depending upon pressure and temperature. (STP is irrelevant, since at STP, H2 is a gas.)
Gas at STP, 1174 g. (yeah, 1.174 kg.)
Adding in normal Deuterium and Tritium concentrations, and you can get up to about 1050 kg per 14 m^3 before it goes metallic; the gas mass will be within 1g.
It's really not that much a difference.
If I read this site right, they're measuring things in feet, not meters.
http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/manual.htm#A0
The Cobra's their starting - well, armed freighter, really. Description places it at 253,500 cubic feet, and that's just a length-width-height block. From the image, I'd guess a bit over half that in actual volume. That puts it roughly around 300 Traveller dTons - which is still big for a two-seater that only carries 20 "tonnes" of cargo. (It's a little odd measuring your ship in feet and then going metric for the cargo.)
Problem is the Elite Wiki quoted in the earlier post - I think that's what that site is - clearly labels the space station in meters then posts the ships without dimensions, but the ship dimensions appear to be lifted from their original source material, which is in feet.
http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/manual.htm#A0
The Cobra's their starting - well, armed freighter, really. Description places it at 253,500 cubic feet, and that's just a length-width-height block. From the image, I'd guess a bit over half that in actual volume. That puts it roughly around 300 Traveller dTons - which is still big for a two-seater that only carries 20 "tonnes" of cargo. (It's a little odd measuring your ship in feet and then going metric for the cargo.)
Problem is the Elite Wiki quoted in the earlier post - I think that's what that site is - clearly labels the space station in meters then posts the ships without dimensions, but the ship dimensions appear to be lifted from their original source material, which is in feet.
tim_manley
SOC-12
salochin999
SOC-13
early colonization
Another question is how do you create space stations when you only have 200T ships to build them with?
I was working on a low TL, early colonization type setting just after jump drive where the first ships are very small and what effect that would have. I think what you'd get in a Traveller universe is a chain of orbital gas stations around gas giants between the systems with decent planets (garden worlds with earth like atmosphere imo) i.e colonists wouldn't go from world to world to world they'd go from decent planet to gas station to gas station to gas station to decent planet.
So I was imagining IKEA flat pack space refueling stations with 100T and 200T ships bringing in the flat packs of girders and panels and a whole sub-culture of riggers who bolt all the pieces together in orbit like the steelworkers who construct the steel girder skeletons of skyscrapers on earth - but in space.
As mentioned, another option is to use ships as part of the construction. For example a ship could be designed to be the bridge / living quarters for an orbital gas station. The ship could be flown into orbit and then the engines removed by the rigger crews and replaced with bays for refueling shuttles. The ship could have pre-built attachment points that allowed large fuel or other pods to constructed by flat pack and attached to the ship - or again actual ships designed to have (relatively) easily removable engines so they can be turned into static pods on site - so crew pods, cargo pods, fuel pods, repair pods etc.
So you'd get space stations a bit like this
http://ak.scr.imgfarm.com/spec/md/SuperStock_1159-101.jpg
or this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nl5MRyNTWjI/UT9mggxCVxI/AAAAAAAAAJM/K0CM6KsLqyU/s1600/force07.png
I thought that was a fun idea.
Another question is how do you create space stations when you only have 200T ships to build them with?
I was working on an early colonization setting just after jump drive and what you'd want in that situation (imo) is a chain of orbital gas stations around gas giants between the systems with decent planets (garden worlds with earth like atmosphere imo) i.e colonists wouldn't go from world to world to world they'd go from decent planet to gas station to gas station to gas station to decent planet.
So I was imagining IKEA flat pack space stations with 100T and 200T ships bringing in the flat packs of girders and panels and a whole sub-culture of riggers who bolt all the pieces together in orbit like the steelworkers who construct the steel girder skeletons of skyscrapers - but in space.
As mentioned, another option is to use ships as part of the construction. For example a ship could be designed to be the bridge / living quarters for an orbital gas station. The ship could be flown into orbit and then the engines removed by the rigger crews and replaced with bays for refueling shuttles. The ship could have pre-built attachment points that allowed large fuel or other pods to constructed by flat pack and attached to the ship - or again actual ships designed to have (relatively) easily removable engines so they can be turned into static pods on site - so crew pods, cargo pods, fuel pods, repair pods etc.
So you'd get space stations a bit like this
http://ak.scr.imgfarm.com/spec/md/SuperStock_1159-101.jpg
or this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nl5MRyNTWjI/UT9mggxCVxI/AAAAAAAAAJM/K0CM6KsLqyU/s1600/force07.png
I thought that was a fun idea.
Another question is how do you create space stations when you only have 200T ships to build them with?
I was working on a low TL, early colonization type setting just after jump drive where the first ships are very small and what effect that would have. I think what you'd get in a Traveller universe is a chain of orbital gas stations around gas giants between the systems with decent planets (garden worlds with earth like atmosphere imo) i.e colonists wouldn't go from world to world to world they'd go from decent planet to gas station to gas station to gas station to decent planet.
So I was imagining IKEA flat pack space refueling stations with 100T and 200T ships bringing in the flat packs of girders and panels and a whole sub-culture of riggers who bolt all the pieces together in orbit like the steelworkers who construct the steel girder skeletons of skyscrapers on earth - but in space.
As mentioned, another option is to use ships as part of the construction. For example a ship could be designed to be the bridge / living quarters for an orbital gas station. The ship could be flown into orbit and then the engines removed by the rigger crews and replaced with bays for refueling shuttles. The ship could have pre-built attachment points that allowed large fuel or other pods to constructed by flat pack and attached to the ship - or again actual ships designed to have (relatively) easily removable engines so they can be turned into static pods on site - so crew pods, cargo pods, fuel pods, repair pods etc.
So you'd get space stations a bit like this
http://ak.scr.imgfarm.com/spec/md/SuperStock_1159-101.jpg
or this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nl5MRyNTWjI/UT9mggxCVxI/AAAAAAAAAJM/K0CM6KsLqyU/s1600/force07.png
I thought that was a fun idea.
Another question is how do you create space stations when you only have 200T ships to build them with?
I was working on an early colonization setting just after jump drive and what you'd want in that situation (imo) is a chain of orbital gas stations around gas giants between the systems with decent planets (garden worlds with earth like atmosphere imo) i.e colonists wouldn't go from world to world to world they'd go from decent planet to gas station to gas station to gas station to decent planet.
So I was imagining IKEA flat pack space stations with 100T and 200T ships bringing in the flat packs of girders and panels and a whole sub-culture of riggers who bolt all the pieces together in orbit like the steelworkers who construct the steel girder skeletons of skyscrapers - but in space.
As mentioned, another option is to use ships as part of the construction. For example a ship could be designed to be the bridge / living quarters for an orbital gas station. The ship could be flown into orbit and then the engines removed by the rigger crews and replaced with bays for refueling shuttles. The ship could have pre-built attachment points that allowed large fuel or other pods to constructed by flat pack and attached to the ship - or again actual ships designed to have (relatively) easily removable engines so they can be turned into static pods on site - so crew pods, cargo pods, fuel pods, repair pods etc.
So you'd get space stations a bit like this
http://ak.scr.imgfarm.com/spec/md/SuperStock_1159-101.jpg
or this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nl5MRyNTWjI/UT9mggxCVxI/AAAAAAAAAJM/K0CM6KsLqyU/s1600/force07.png
I thought that was a fun idea.
Those are ideas I read back in the 1950s for building the space station designed by Willey Ley.
Rockets that are fired up to orbit. 'Space tugs' with clamps on the end of mechanical arms and a pilot aboard takes them apart, the pieces are used to build the space station.
plastic models, but you can see the Von Braun rockets and the 1955 Space Station S-1.
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/1950s_concept_spacecraft.htm
The book I read as a kid, no idea where my copy might be at this late date: The Conquest of Space by Willey Ley. Chesley Bonestell illustrated it.
Rockets that are fired up to orbit. 'Space tugs' with clamps on the end of mechanical arms and a pilot aboard takes them apart, the pieces are used to build the space station.
plastic models, but you can see the Von Braun rockets and the 1955 Space Station S-1.
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/1950s_concept_spacecraft.htm
The book I read as a kid, no idea where my copy might be at this late date: The Conquest of Space by Willey Ley. Chesley Bonestell illustrated it.
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Have you seen Golden age Starships 5: Archaic Smallcraft and Space Stations from Comstar Games?
It has a range of TL7-8 rockets and 10ton modules for constructing spacestaions. It has some neat ideas such as Lab and Hab modules as well as power modules using both chemical and fission powerplants.
Its not quite IKEA flatpacks but its closer to rea lworld space station building using modules lifted to orbit and bolted on to each other and connected with adapters and docking collars. What you end up with is something that looks like Mir or the International Space Station but displaces around the 150ton mark and functions as a Highport.
I get the impression that you're thinking about bigger stations but there's no reason why you can scale up from 10ton modules to 100ton modules. Or how about you build the largest hull possible, fit it out with station accomidations and attach a jump tug to bring it to its destination?
salochin999
SOC-13
Shadowrunner
SOC-12
I like this concept very much because it solves the problem of massive deckplans. A modular turnkey system that can be constructed and re-arranged in orbit. Only a few areas would be bespoke or custom. Deckplans in most areas would be the same. The disadvantage of this would be that it would be easier to get lost, without a map or understanding the signage.
salochin999
SOC-13
I haven't but I'll look.
Yeah the jump-tug idea makes more sense in a lot of ways but if you were starting in the early days with just 200T ships then with a tug you might end up with a 160T (or whatever it might be) module. If you designed the ship for the drives to be taken out and replaced with some other module after the ship was in orbit around the refueling spot you'd still have the full 200T to play with.
I dunno if it makes sense but visually I like the idea of a bunch of Broadswords being bolted together into a space station.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Real world example is overhead. The Shuttle was only about 90-95 dtons.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ship a 100t TL9+ 3d printer, henceforth to be known was an autonomous industrial fabrication facility, into orbit on your 200t ship, then use your 200t ship to bring asteroid mined raw materials 100t at a time.
The fabricator builds modules which are then assembled to make the station. The more raw materials you ship to the fabricator the bigger your space station.
The fabricator builds modules which are then assembled to make the station. The more raw materials you ship to the fabricator the bigger your space station.
salochin999
SOC-13
Yes, manufacturing the "flat packs" in situ would be an option.
salochin999
SOC-13
Yes, the situation I am imagining is a species starting on a good planet and then there's a chain of 5-6 sucky systems before another good planet so they build a chain of orbital refueling stations through the sucky systems rather than a chain of colonies.
Part of this - I'd imagine - would be large fuel tanks for the scooped unrefined fuel, refining modules and large tanks for the refined fuel so merchant ships making way between the two good systems can just dock and refuel on their journey. I was thinking those large tanks might need to be constructed in situ.
Like this in space
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/MiRO4.jpg
(which you could imagine as a collection of Broadswords with all the interior components taken out and filled with fuel).
with lots of maintenance tunnels for players to get lost in.
One thought I had was the idea of giving all space stations drives, or at least grav thrusters scattered about. A million tons gives me a floor area equivalent to a 2 kilometer by 2 kilometer town. Plenty of room, it's better to have several structures in space than one big one anyway, I can dock them if I really want larger, and -
- well, to be perfectly honest, the idea of something hanging in space relying on some interstellar convention to keep it safe when the navies start tossing missiles at each other just sounds crazy. I personally like the idea of having the orbital stations descend from orbit and go into hiding in the planetary atmosphere when the shooting starts. If nothing else, it protects them from particle beams and gives them a fighting chance against missiles. Means they have to be sturdier than otherwise, carefully planned and supported by strategically-placed gravs so they can handle their own weight in a gravity field without falling apart, therefore more expensive. However, to do differently is to pay ransom to every passing Vargr raiding party, 'cause win or lose they'll pop a few off on your unarmored station just to teach you the price of saying, "No."
- well, to be perfectly honest, the idea of something hanging in space relying on some interstellar convention to keep it safe when the navies start tossing missiles at each other just sounds crazy. I personally like the idea of having the orbital stations descend from orbit and go into hiding in the planetary atmosphere when the shooting starts. If nothing else, it protects them from particle beams and gives them a fighting chance against missiles. Means they have to be sturdier than otherwise, carefully planned and supported by strategically-placed gravs so they can handle their own weight in a gravity field without falling apart, therefore more expensive. However, to do differently is to pay ransom to every passing Vargr raiding party, 'cause win or lose they'll pop a few off on your unarmored station just to teach you the price of saying, "No."
May not need to be TL9+
Dutch team making a 3D printed house:
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27221199
Ooops, years to complete. Of course, they could use multiple printers.
This only works if you also have cheap transmutation. Otherwise your fabricator needs specific alloys to fabricate specific stuff. I've always (i.e. from back in the days of T4, before 3D printers were a concept but mobile fabrication facilities were part of the catalog) assumed that TLX fabricators needed special TLX alloys to fabricate TLX stuff.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's not transmutation, its breaking asteroids down to their elemental constituents and then using those as your raw materials.
Ok, I probably missed out a smelting facility step, the principle is the same.
So add a 'use your 200t ship to put a smelting facility in orbit next to your fabricator'.
Cheap unlimited fusion power lest you do an awful lot of chemistry that is very expensive here in the real world.
Ok, I probably missed out a smelting facility step, the principle is the same.
So add a 'use your 200t ship to put a smelting facility in orbit next to your fabricator'.
Cheap unlimited fusion power lest you do an awful lot of chemistry that is very expensive here in the real world.
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