mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I have to ask - so what is the ultimate form of personal protection IYTU?
How good is battle dress?
- Thread starter Shadowfax
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To be honest I don't really know, because no one has ever had it, but I suppose it would be some kind of tech 16 battle dress with integral gravetic field compensation Vs kenetic energy (shock).
Either that or some Ancient artifact that works like the personal shields used in the Dune movie.
Agree, and BD will be robotic too
.....but that dosn't make for fun games does it? Thats why all (or most) of my grav tanks and suits of Battle Dress are still manned. = )
Wow! Yeah, I forgot all about them! Ancient artifacts right? Sure, I guess that would be the ultimate in personal protection if you could get your hands on one. I wonder how many the Ancients left behind and how many people know about them . . . .
I liked the idea of the personal shields like in the Dune movie with sting (Only slow moving weapons like a spiker or a blade could penetrate one of those shields.), because it gave another realistic reason for the continued mass use of blade weapons . . . aside from close quarters combat on ships during boarding actions of course. *Smirk*
I remember when I was a little kid asking my uncle if he had any martial arts training in Vietnam and whether he had to use it. Kids can be impertinent sometimes, I guess I was no exception. Anyway, his response was, "No, we just carried enough ammunition, so that they never got the chance to get that close."
Based on that, and some unfortunate personal experience I find myself challenged sometimes to present realistic reasons for the space opera look-and-feel that I want to give my game. You know? Boarders coming over with swords and stuff? I like that in my games.
I argued against it somewhere in another thread to find out what reasons if any everyone else used. Man, people get emotional when you threaten to take their blades away!
It just does add so much flavor to the game.
Thanks for reminding me about shimmer suits! = )
I forget right now which adventure had the shimmersuits, but it might be Secret of the Ancients? Or Leviathan maybe?
"Boarders away!" is often heard in my games, at least when the klaxons to repel boarders are not going off. Probably because I have always been a huge reader of old science fiction from the Golden Age sword n' blaster space opera is the only way I can run Traveller and have any fun. Having fenced competitively in saber/foil (but no longer can due to injuries) for over 15 years also means I have to at least get my swordplay mojo on vicariously once and a while. Heck, my first character (a Scout) carried a broadsword - not sure why except it meant if I ran out of ammo I could still do some real damage.
Since the OTU hadn't developed to the extent it has now when I started playing I had to use my imagination or adapt things out of books and movies to put in my games. Mainly out of books...so the personal shield technology of Dune and the stasis fields from Niven's Known Space were turned into the TL-16+ armor of my game. They actually start at TL-17 although the stasis field tech is starting to be reverse engineered by the Empire - except due to it's nature (you can't even flicker it like a black globe) its potential is kind of limited right now. But that is creating an adventure seed for my campaign, too.
Stasis shields are good for crash protection and making variable swords, and the Dune personal shields turned into my own vision of a "shimmersuit" which blocks kinetic energy above the velocity of a bladed weapon, and energy weapons are deflected entirely. A good blast from a big enough weapon will still hurt the wearer since flying 100 meters after the impact of a collapsing round or plasma gun will do internal damage. But then, the regular armor worn they underneath has good "air bags".
The aliens who use them use variable swords for hand to hand combat and, in addition to the shielded armor carry round stasis shields of the real "shield" kind to parry the variable swords. Variable swords can defeat a shield, and standard bladed weapons have a negaive DM to hit since you have to do the Dune "slow down/speed up" thing to get through.
They also have smaller versions of collapsing round guns and plasma handguns, but they (thankfully for player survival) prefer more one-on-one combat with the swords since those are really the best way to get through (hmmmm...kinda like Dune, huh?) the shield.
The players have only encountered them once, and that was an accident when they found and got too close to a jumpgate which these aliens use...and because they are a decaying race far beyond the Terran Empire these aliens had forgotten about this particular gate.
Maybe one day they might remember it and come through, but that's for another campaign.
Anyhow, always run the game you want, and if that means plenty of flashing swords and perhaps anachronistic (or unrealistic depending on your POV) boardings with derring-do in order to save the princess from the BEM with unholy intentions on her honor then that's how you run it! Traveller has plenty of room for anything in it (as the thread on fantasy Trav proves).
Sometimes I get a little too overboard on either end of the realistic hard sci-fi vs. space opera/John Carter of Mars spectrum but it all comes out in the wash. Personally I just try to make sure there's enough hard science to keep things consistent enough that it makes sense without me having to explain every little thing, but enough mystery and imagination to keep it from getting too civilized and dull. In the meantime I figure no real hero is complete unless he has a sword in one hand and a gun (or girl) in the other.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Shimmersuits are indeed found within Secret of the Ancients.
for MTU -- it depends on the TL.
the TL 10 Composite Matrix Armor is probably the toughest at this level -- 9.61 Tough, 9.54 wt; Although, the TL 9 Boron Composite Matrix is popular -- being 7 toughness, 2 weight (so just make it thicker, yet STILL lightweight); being basically 20% as light as the Composite Matrix --
the TL 12 synthetic armor -- tough, 9.86 and weight, 2 makes for a very tough battledress and a lot lighter than the TL 10 Composite Miatrix Armor which is 9.61 toughness, but 9.54 weight -- so basically 20% the weight -- the TL 12 synthetic armor basically replaces the popular TL 9 Boron Composite Matrix as Battledress armor.
But the TL 12 Metal Ceramic Armor is arguably the best -- at toughness 13.13 and weight of 6.4625
-- If I can figure a way of giving battledress a 1 MW charge, then I would use the TL 13 Electropolymorphic synthetic armor -- which would give 40 toughness at 1.5 weight -- Awesome for vehicles and ships, but imho impossible for Battledress
--so comparing them to standard Trav alloys --
TL 10 Crystaliron is T 8, Wt 10 -- which makes my alternate armor better at protection and way better at weight
the TL 12 Superdense -- T14 Wt 15 -- my Meteral Ceramic alloy is nearly the same at protection and a WHOLE LOT less in weight -- which means I can double the thickness of the Battledress and still have less weight than a standard OTU suit of TL 12 BD.
If I use my TL 12 Synthetic armor -- it is 1/7th the weight of Superdense -- which means I can really pack on the armor, thereby making it VERY tough -- looking at almost equal weight -- I can have my armor be at 69.02 toughness and 14 weight -- making it way tougher than OTU armors.
even the TL 15 Bonded SD -- T 28 Wt 15 -- is equal to my Ceramic metal alloy -- and I am 3 TL's ahead ..
so summary: It depends on what ya wanna do TL-wise -- if you want to have thinner yet tough Battledress -- or thicker yet VERY tough Battledress
So Battledresses are not simple decisions with several differing armors to choose from -- toughness adn weight considerations must be made -- if one doesn't mind thik armor -- one can have VERY tough armor indeed.
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Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
The limitations on thickness for BD armour are a function of human mobilty and comfort. You're not going to have space for more than a few cm (divided by 2 faces) in your armpit or groin, otherwise your arms and legs will be splayed out at weird angles. Ditto fingers. Of course, you could have your armour of variable thickness on different parts of the body - depends how complex you want to go.
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
Don't have Secrets of the Ancients. Brief explanation of shimmersuits, please? I take it it's something like a personal cloaking device?
More like "Tailored Battle Dress"... impenetrable to energy weapons, and kinetic force only gets 25% through... but also soft, stretchy, and one-size fits most.
My things about battledress:
1.) Should be TL 12 instead of TL 13, with pre-battledress versions which look like a sealed version of the suit from Aliens at TL 11.
2.) Plasma guns shouldn't need BD to be able to fire; there should be some sort of tripod or other firing platform for it. The BD-requiring version should be presented as an example of how the PGMP-13/FGMP-14 and BD are used, however.
3.) BD should provide more protection than combat armor.
1.) Should be TL 12 instead of TL 13, with pre-battledress versions which look like a sealed version of the suit from Aliens at TL 11.
2.) Plasma guns shouldn't need BD to be able to fire; there should be some sort of tripod or other firing platform for it. The BD-requiring version should be presented as an example of how the PGMP-13/FGMP-14 and BD are used, however.
3.) BD should provide more protection than combat armor.
Sure it is always eaiser (and cheaper) to make a weapon that defeats armor than is to make an "un-defeatable" suit of armor or armored vehicle, but I think I mentioned this before....
I am sure that you could use a huge IED to defeat BD too. I just wonder how much you would need to have?
I am sure that you could use a huge IED to defeat BD too. I just wonder how much you would need to have?
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My take on this:
I think the idea here was that technologies appear, go through a development cycle reach a peak and then become obsolete.
There are no TL 15 RAM Grenades, because they have been replaced by smart-rounds, better shoot-through grenades, Tac-missiles or whatever. Of course, some people still use tech 13 (or whatever) RAM grenades, because it is all they have or it was the cheapest solution or whatever.
There are no tech 15 Laser rifles, because they have been replaced by gauss rifles and fusion guns. Lasers just don't get any better than TL 13 or whatever it is. (I am too lazy to look it up and I don't remember) Once again, those laser rifles are still out there, but the design was out-trumped, by the next technological development.
The TL2 "streamlined pointy-stone" just never took off, because people developed bows and arrows. = )
I think that might be what the people at GDW were thinking on that.
All that having been said, IMTU I have some TL15 Laser rifles and they are good as good at taking out BD as are the 10mm and 12mm Gauss rifles are = DEADLY!
= )
My idea with the Mini-mechas. Is to see them as like a stage in the early development cycle of BD. They would be phased out fast and would be replaced by the newer and better BD.
I do not think that the Mechas would ever be intended to replace grav tanks. At least, not any more than BD would. I also do not see every culture developing mini-mechas. My guess is that the Imperium, probably developed a prototype BD that is a mini-mecha and then they improved and evolved the design to get BD. Other TRaveller cultures would have just borrowed or stolen from the Imperium, skipping the relatively short-lived mini-mech stage and going straight to BD.
Somewhere along the line they probably sold all the old mecha style suits to some client state ally or some vargr clan that was fighting another vargr clan (like supplying weapons to Iraq during the Iran vs Iraq war). The point is that someone at some point in time prior to the heyday of BD probably made such a suit and it probably saw action until the heyday of BD. Thus, suits like this might be encountered somewhere.
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Yeah, I see the Imperials using BD on more primitive rebellious planets to keep the locals in line. This makes for great adventure material. The platoon of imperial marines or mercs in BD fighting a battalion or regiment of indigenous troops with flak jackets or crappy combat armor.
I soooo envy your collection too!!!
Ah, the good old days! = )
I am looking to find a gamers retirement home btw. Anybody know of anything like this?
Gents,
Now that we can leave OTU black globes and personal TU variations aside, I'd like to ask you all about one aspect of battledress - or 57th Century infantry combat in general - I believe has needed to be addressed for decades now: drones.
The picture of that nifty wargame collection triggered my memory of the "redheaded stepchild" of the Ogre/GEV family; Battlesuit. (This is a link to the Boardgame Geek page for the game.) Battlesuit focused on man-to-man combat in the Ogre setting. Each counter was one man, there were no tanks, no artillery, no enormous cybernetic killing machines, nothing other than squad of men in battlesuits going at it. I only played it a few times so my memories of it were vague.
I did remember the game's various non-traditional touches, like using points instead of hexes, non-phasing player interruptions, and strongly emphasizing elevation, but the major thing that I really remembered about the game was it's use of drones. There were three types drones that gave the controlling player various benefits like enhancing sensor rolls or weapon attacks. A player often had to choose whether to target opposing infantry or the drones they were using to pester him.
In the last decade or so, military forces around the world have rushed to deploy a variety of drones. Most are UAVs of some type or another in a wide range of sizes and capabilities. Many have been cobbled together from "off the shelf" components too. Given 57th Century power, contragravity, computing, comms, and sensor systems, combat drones in a huge variety of sizes and capabilities should be available.
(Of course, any system used in combat will spark the creation of counter-systems and a constant ECM/ECCM-like evolutionary spiral will occur.)
Information overload is always a problem, especially in combat. However, battledress, with it's built-in comm and computing capabilities, is ready made to help it's wearer handle the information streaming in from drones and other sensor platforms.
So, what sort of drones would a battledress wearer use? What would be their usual "load out"? How would that "load out" vary by mission? By environment? By tech level?
Hope to read all your ideas soon.
Regards,
Bill
Yeah, to be honest my guess is that REALISTICALLY speaking drones would replace manned vehicles and guy in suits of BD, as they are already starting to do now. Grav tanks, fighters, SDBs and such would all probably be unmanned.
All the warriors would resemble overweight play-station users.
The only real argument for still having men and manned vehicles on the battlefield is jamming and hacking. If you could jam the enemy's signals, his drones would be useless. If you could hack his signals, the enemy's drones would become your drones.
Just two thoughts I wanted to throw out there.
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