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How good is battle dress?

Drones are the reason the BD gives the wearer +2 DM to surprise in CT ;)

A case could be made for BD to also include the functions of a map box and a battlefield computer from LBB4.

This would allow the BD trooper to control drone missiles, remote MRLs etc.
 
I always figured it was speed and the built-in sensors/targeting systems that provided the surprise DM.
 
No doubt that artillery is called the queen of the battlefield for a reason, but with increased counter-battery effectiveness, mine detection tech (mine clearing grav drones using line charges or firing gravitic pulses into the ground to detonate them?), and the increased use of ortillery (those spinal meson guns will ruin your day even on the ground, as would a few thousand missiles fired off a dedicated ortillery ship), I think the infantryman's life will be plenty hazardous enough on any scale.

Carry it to the logical conclusion and you go two ways: one way takes it to where war is just so unbelievable destructive that everyone gives up as soon as the Fleet jumps in; or the other way means the conflict is more limited to smaller scale skirmishing and surgical commando ops so as to avoid having to waste the place and lose what you might be fighting for.

In the first case you could argue that there might not even be a reason to bother with BD troops; just use drones and grav tanks supported by the fleet until the other side surrenders, or just start mass driver bombardment and then start over with a new planet.

in the second case the need for infantry is greater than ever before because it will be more of a one-on-one affair. In that situation the personal weapon will be decisive and the heavy support tanks and guns will be relegated to the rear as a reserve to use in case you are lucky enough to bottle up all of the enemy in one place where those kinds of weapons will be effective.

IEDs work now because the enemy runs away or hides behind women and children where they know the opposition can't get at them because of being hamstrung by foolish (though I suppose vaguely morally defensible) rules of engagement. So the enemy knows where to plant the bombs and knows the opposing side can't just annihilate the area in retaliation to stop further bombs.

If you don't have that type of situation to deal with, because of less collateral damage avoiding doctrine or a remote area, and you have the will and ability to use the maximum force available to you then all those worries about TDX mines and IEDs are moot. Just level the place until they either surrender or none are left alive.

In Traveller BD works more because the guys who have it are generally going against lower tech fighters and the armor protects the FGMP-wielding Marines. So the Imperium goes in and takes on the bad guys without having to worry about meson bombardments and all.

Against similarly equipped forces, like the Zhodani, the Imperium has to choose between the annihilation of a world in order to save it, or go in and fight more "conventionally" with BD equipped troops and tanks and all the typical combined arms stuff while the really heavy exotic weapons that might end the find in a matter of hours (or less) have to be held back. The few exceptions to this only prove the rule.

So in the end BD is good, best against lower tech but still beatable by it in some cases (like RAM grenades, autocannons, and VRFGG's), but it's not very useful in individual combat (LOL, with FGMP's, or even a PGMP-13 I guess that could be up to 1/4-1/2 a kilometer!) against equal TL weapons. It does help even the odds a wee bit, though.

I've found that it really works best in the RPG environment, not so much in the wargame situation. But even then it all also depends on the ruleset you use. In Striker an average hit with an FGMP-14 (PEN 34) vs TL-15 BD (AV=18) gets you a roll of 7+16= more than the 12+ needed to kill. A Pgmp-13 would generate 14. AN auto cannon would depend on the caliber and velocity + ammo type. Plus, in Striker explosive and energy weapons (including lasers) are bumped one level of damage so a serious wound = kill, etc. This system is more realistic and well-suited to a wargame, but not as RPG friendly in my experience (though I still prefer it for a lot of crunchy gearheady reasons).

But in CT combat there is a chance, slight though it may be that a soldier in BD could survive a hit from an FGMP-15 even if he's wearing nothing. Unless houseruled otherwise it's just a straight 16D6 damage distributed among his 3 main characteristics. A gauss rifle firing a 10 round burst with three chances to hit (and hit it will) would do 3 packets of 4D6, and that I have found to be a real BD nullifier. Not to mention the autocannon or RAM grenade. That's why this system may not be as realistic as Striker, but it's more RPG friendly.

So the BD question is also highly relative to the rules used and what combat doctrine is used against whom.

One cannot discount that is how guerilla tactics have worked and most likely will work in the future. Broadsword (adventure 7) gives gives the Imperial rules of war, which basically no nukes and no extreme interference from off world. I don't think the RoE's hamstring the countries too much, tactical superiority is often sacrificed for political gain, nothing new there and tactical superiority has rarely won wars. Also Broadsword does state that with a large fleet above, there is little chance for the defenders below, which makes sense, unless there are large planetary batteries to ward off the fleet. Otherwise it is back to the old fortress versus artillery battle and forts lose, Napoleon wrote about that.

Now for smart mines, I'm thinking maybe that they are cloaked and only are triggered when they acquire a target, quite deadly sounding to me, maybe even they bore around to chase their target, underground. Homing grav grenades is also a scary thought, a high tech sticky bomb.

With drones I'm reminded of Haldeman's Forever War where he states there is only so much machinery you can stuff in the size of a grape or something like that. Which really makes sense because I would guess that Laser and other ADA would make it hell for anything that flies; if it flies, it dies. This would pertain esp to drones, recon and otherwise, at least high tech vs high tech. GEV also stated that satelites would be shot down fairly quickly. I can see troops having a grape sized eye-recon drone that they would shoot up knowing it would get pegged quickly but would at least give some limited intel.

This is one area where I really didn't like the minitures/boardgame rules because you could see where everything was, which is highly unrealistic. Modelling battles on the computer though with panzer general 2 however, you can really control where reinforcements and such are coming in giving a real idea of suprise and showing the vital importance of Recon. I still have a mind to make a Grav-Tank e-file of that game.
 
What about hunter-seeker drones? Small drones that float around on grav until they see a guy in BD bouncing along. Then they accelerate towards him and use either a self-forging penetrator or HEAT warhead.

VRF GG's work well against BD, as do autocannons. Heck, a bouncing betty type mine that is actively looking for BD might work well against them....so would a drone zipping over the battlefied and dropping area-denial type mines that bounce up and detonate. Or a drone that pops up when a group of BD equipped troopers are detected and fires a cloud of KEAP penetrators at the group.

Lots of ways to kill BD equipped troops. But in a combined arms use they can still be a good force multiplier.

I don't know my bet is that a tech 15 Gauss rifle is going to penetrate BD too. I mean, its a lot harder to design, build and mass produce an impenetrable armored suit than it is to make a high velocity armor penetrating bullet of some kind - ya know?

IMTU There are 10mm and 12mm Gauss rifles made for cracking BD.
 
In Classic Traveller, I thought that BattleDress (BD) and Combat Armor offered exactly the same protection?

I have never viewed BD as being primarily about 'super defense' (or super human abilities for that matter). I thought it was about a squad support weapon. In WW2 most guys carried a basic rifle, but one guy had to lug around the BAR (while other guys carried extra ammo). Often a 30 or 50 cal Machine gun would be mounted on a jeep (or carried by a separate squad) to provide a little extra firepower. Unfortunately, this extra firepower came at the expense of mobility. The MG squad cannot move quickly and the jeep cannot enter a building.

Now what if one man could carry a support weapon as fast (or faster) than the rest of the squad, could enter confined spaces, could carry vehicular mounted support weapons and could carry his own ammo. Suddenly the BAR becomes a Ma Deuce (.50 cal M2 machine gun) or a Vulcan MG or a semi-auto RPG launcher. The battledress grants infantry mobility to vehicular weapons - firepower on demand, when and where it is needed.

Battledress does not replace combat armored troops, it supports them.
 
Did it? Or did it just get it wrong? :devil:


Hans

In either case, the universe described by TNE is physics-incompatible with that described in CT and MT, but we are assured by the only authority it's the same universe...

This is a case of Change, since T4, T20, and GT all likewise make BD better than combat. (I lost that fight in T20...)
 
In either case, the universe described by TNE is physics-incompatible with that described in CT and MT, but we are assured by the only authority it's the same universe...
Even Marc Miller's incontestable authority does not extend to declaring that five is the same as seven. He can tell us whether it is five or seven, but not that it's both. Not even in the Official Traveller Universe.

This is a case of Change, since T4, T20, and GT all likewise make BD better than combat. (I lost that fight in T20...)
That's different. That's a retcon and that his authority surely does extend to. So we have to accept that CT and MT "got it wrong". In fact, someone should figure out what the "right" CA and BD figures are in CT and MT terms and post the "corrections".

Umm... what does MGT have to say about it? Maybe it was TNE, T4, T20, and GT that got it wrong...



Hans
 
Even Marc Miller's incontestable authority does not extend to declaring that five is the same as seven. He can tell us whether it is five or seven, but not that it's both. Not even in the Official Traveller Universe.


That's different. That's a retcon and that his authority surely does extend to. So we have to accept that CT and MT "got it wrong". In fact, someone should figure out what the "right" CA and BD figures are in CT and MT terms and post the "corrections".

Umm... what does MGT have to say about it? Maybe it was TNE, T4, T20, and GT that got it wrong...

Hans

Code:
Combat Armour (TL 11)	12
Combat Armour (TL 12)	14
Combat Armour (TL 14)	16
Battle Dress (TL 13)	16
Battle Dress (TL 14)	18
2 points better.
 
In Classic Traveller, I thought that BattleDress (BD) and Combat Armor offered exactly the same protection?

I have never viewed BD as being primarily about 'super defense' (or super human abilities for that matter). I thought it was about a squad support weapon. In WW2 most guys carried a basic rifle, but one guy had to lug around the BAR (while other guys carried extra ammo). Often a 30 or 50 cal Machine gun would be mounted on a jeep (or carried by a separate squad) to provide a little extra firepower. Unfortunately, this extra firepower came at the expense of mobility. The MG squad cannot move quickly and the jeep cannot enter a building.

Now what if one man could carry a support weapon as fast (or faster) than the rest of the squad, could enter confined spaces, could carry vehicular mounted support weapons and could carry his own ammo. Suddenly the BAR becomes a Ma Deuce (.50 cal M2 machine gun) or a Vulcan MG or a semi-auto RPG launcher. The battledress grants infantry mobility to vehicular weapons - firepower on demand, when and where it is needed.

Battledress does not replace combat armored troops, it supports them.

IMTU I have gradiated levels of protection DM's for the higher TL's of BD and Combat. I always interpreted combat to be lighter and smaller...it comes out before BD and I figure combat doesn't provide the same impact and penetrative protection (BD being able to carry more weight = heavier armor materials and better "airbags" inside).

Yes, since it's a force multiplier why not take it to its logical end and add weapons to it, or at least equip all the troops you can with it, even if only to have "Heavy Infantry" and "Light Infantry" (as IMTU) so you can have formations composed of it. I also assume BD is bigger so Combat is handier onboard ships and among garrisoned troops. Armor crews wear combat since not only do they not need to wear powered suits inside grav tanks, but how would they fit? Since Traveller isn't WH40K things are on a more realistic scale.

So IMTU the Fleet Marines wear Combat and use powerguns or gauss rifles...with BD and FGMP's in the lockers for landings, and the Line Marine Regiments have Heavy Co.'s w/ BD and Light Co.'s w/ Combat or lighter recon BD. Armored crews use Combat (if only to increase survivability in a hit or bail out situation, and the Arty crews wear Combat (autoloaders on the railguns).

It's all relative to the combat doctrines and kind of universe you play I suppose. There's plenty of room for everyone's opinion.

SO here's my chart for graduated effectiveness of BD vs. Combat for use with CT combat (I have a similar set for Striker - which codified the concept that BD was better since it had more points of protection before TNe/MT or other versions) and maybe you'll see what I mean:

At Tech Level 11 12 13 14 15
DM for CMBT .. 0 +1 +2 +3 +4
DM's for BD ... * * +4 +5 +6


Just add the TL modifier to the roll required to hit. Now a TL-12 gauss rifle is going to be less of a threat to a TL-15 BD wearer.
 
Maybe an OFF switch? :smirk:

But seriously...look here for what it could be like in CT as both a real weapon system, not just boosted combat armor.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20073

I agree with you; it ought to be a force multiplier and weapon in the hands of someone trained to use it. But people still freak out over the whole "mecha" theme. They have visions of Battlehawks and Robotech. Me, I just figure it's an infantry weapon and not a tank, and when you have grav tanks and fusion cannon that can hit at line of sight while flying around faster than a mech could run....and only needs to lose one leg for a soft kill....why have mechs?

Thats like asking, "Why have infantry when you have tanks?" In fact, if you ask that question you could ask why have battle dress at all? Its always easier to build an anti-tank weapon to defeat a tank than it is to build the perfect (invulnerable) tank, but that having been said, people still build tanks. They just keep trying to make them better. That's how I see it with armor in Traveller. At any given tech level the anti armor weapons penetration values are probably going to be better or equal to the protection values, but that armor is going to stop hits from lower tech weapons. Its an arms race. For a while combat armor is going to be better than anything, then along come the gauss rifle and the laser. Then comes BD. Finally, we get the PGMPS and the FGMPS and BD doesn't stop that either.

Methinks the mechs or mechas are just the Tech 11 precursor to Battle Dress. They appear on the scene and then disappear as quickly as battle dress replaces them.

Its reasonable to assume that they would have some clunkier less effective prototype to BD before BD actually comes into "fashion". Besides that its kind of cool to have people runing around in Armored versions of the loader in aliens.

I don't like the idea of towering mechs like in Battletech though. I think that they would be to big and easy to hit. I see no reason to have something like that in a human shape. Its better to make a small low-profile vehicle that can go hull down than to have a towering mech.

To be honest I think that most of the grav tanks would be unmanned by tech 15.
 
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CES isn't pressure-rated. (It is sealable, but not rated for a pressure differential.)

Combat armor is.
Battledress is CA with augmentation.

IMTU, all marines on combat duty are issued combat armor, and if qualified, battledress. The AV is just as good, and it's a whole lot cheaper.

IMTU we decided that there is the combat environment suit, that is sealed, but not as well armored as combat armor. Then there is combat armor that provides good protection, but is not sealed. Then there is Combat Environment Armor that is like a sealed combat armor. Then, for a short time around tech 11 there are these mechas, which are the prototype of battledress. Some are sealed some aren't. Some are fast and lightly armored. Others are slower, but well armored. Finally, there is battle dress the pentultiumate in personal protection.
 
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