Yeah, it's enough of a sidenote to stop right there.
How Politically Correct is your TU?
- Thread starter Liam Devlin
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Yeah, it's enough of a sidenote to stop right there.
The Imperial Code Of Honor is probably something like a melding of Vilani and Solimani ideals. To some degree the 3rd Imperium is the British Empire recycled in space. But for good roleplaying some imagination is needed to make it clear that we are not in Kansas(or London) anymore.
Yep, 'twas I.
Those things you called cliche- to me, those are tropes. Tropes are not bad, if used well. The OTU is built of classic Sci Fi tropes.
Yep, 'twas I.
Those things you called cliche- to me, those are tropes. Tropes are not bad, if used well. The OTU is built of classic Sci Fi tropes.
You're right. Tropes Are Not bad.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Well, yeah, enforcement is always an issue. Maybe YTU isn't so different from mine. MTU will insist that certain High Laws are upheld by the local government. How successfully they're upheld and how much persuasion can be brought to bear is a different matter, though I suspect from your description that my Imperium has a significantly tighter grip on its member worlds than yours.
Probably so, yeah.
IMTU:
There is tension between the majority of nobles who wish to preserve the traditional decentralized order, and a small minority of reformers who wish for more centralized, interventionist, proactive Imperium. That latter group is exemplified by Archduke Dulinor.
The reformist nobles are not advocates for democracy.
The Ine Givar are the only major 'democratic' faction in the Imperium- and they are bloody-handed terrorists. I don't romanticize them.
Probably so, yeah.
IMTU:
There is tension between the majority of nobles who wish to preserve the traditional decentralized order, and a small minority of reformers who wish for more centralized, interventionist, proactive Imperium. That latter group is exemplified by Archduke Dulinor.
The reformist nobles are not advocates for democracy.
The Ine Givar are the only major 'democratic' faction in the Imperium- and they are bloody-handed terrorists. I don't romanticize them.
A democratic Astralcracy in TTU is impossible because of the scale and the communications difficulties. The best one can get is representative government, and the Imperial nobility has a large size, reasonable "churn" and interface with planetary government, so it has some degree of "representative" effect. It is not precisely clear that an electoral representation would do better especially as unless every member world was democratic(which would be a bother to ensure) enough to have a realistic vote for representation, it could not be representative anyway.
Neither the Emperor or the Nobility seem to have an arbitrary "Off with his head" type of power, and canon seems to indicate that the Imperium is a de facto Constitutional Monarchy rather then a despotism. Restraint is provided by the ability to bureaucratically clog decrees that are to odious(or to helpful for that matter) and by the internal balance of power. The Moot's powers are undefined but they seem to exist to counter the Imperial power.
The Imperium might also be compared to an eighteenth century monarchy but the only eighteenth century state that was able to competently administer a comparable empire was England and other empires existed primarily to provide plunder for hardy Englishmen. England, of course, was not a centralized monarchy after the European fashion. And the Imperium certainly is not.
Thus saying the Imperium is "undemocratic" is true but deceitful. Democracy is simply impossible at that level. It could better be called an oligarchy and indeed that is pretty much what it is. Arguably that is all it can be and local autonomy is in any case more conducive to self-rule then giving everyone one trillionth of a vote over the affairs of the Imperium.
Nothing prevents a member world from having whatever sort of government it likes- and that includes democratic governments. As you note, the nature of interstellar travel/communication really does not allow for a functioning 'democracy' of 11K worlds.
Level -headed and well-informed citizens of the Imperium understand all that. The Ine Givar are not the sanest folks in the Domain of Deneb. Were you to sit down with them and calmly explain the practical difficulties of democratic interstellar polities, they would likely respond by cutting off your head or shooting you.
History is full of crazies who had impossible dreams for which they were willing to kill and die: Al Qaida springs to mind, as do the Bolsheviks.
Politics for some reason has an allurement to the poetic as well as the prosaic mindset and the poetic side of politics can be dangerous. Perhaps that is a good thing about Space Opera; that it can provide a harmless outlet to that impulse.
But yeah, the Imperium is reasonably efficient, reasonably just, and seldom spectacularly bad. That's about the best as can be expected of a state.
Naw, that runs against everything that has ever been written about the Imperium. It is a huge bloated bureaucratic machine that feeds and occasionally devours itself. Empire, by definition, is also corrupt and decayed in the space opera tradition.
Having said that there are things that Imperium does very well but mostly those things are invisible to average citizen but the benefits of quitting are more costly than membership not to mention the consequences - for while power is benign during membership and there is active courtship prior to joining...interlocking mechanisms ensure that no world or polity ever really leaves the Imperium.
Having said that there are things that Imperium does very well but mostly those things are invisible to average citizen but the benefits of quitting are more costly than membership not to mention the consequences - for while power is benign during membership and there is active courtship prior to joining...interlocking mechanisms ensure that no world or polity ever really leaves the Imperium.
The 3rd Imperium in Canon is generally treated in a semi-positive light. Think of it as a more edgy version of the Federation-with fancier clothes.
That doesn't mean you cannot make a Star Wars like Imperium or even a Dune-like Imperium if you wish.
Unless you are thinking of the Zira Sirka? ISW certainly pictures it more or less that way though not quite in a black and white format.
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In other words, you can imagine Captain Kirk serving the Third Imperium. You can't imagine him serving Palpatine's Empire.
Large "good guy" states are just as well established in sci-fi tradition as large "bad-guy" states.
Kirk? Bah! No Trek in my Traveller, please.
As I see it, the Imperium is no more 'good' than were the historical Persian, Roman, Spanish, British empires. It's big. It's really big. Sometimes its rulers make pious proclamations; sometimes they truly mean these things. That slavery ban had a lot to do with selling more Zhunastu megacorp robots, and scoring propaganda points.
The Solomani Confederation is really no more 'evil' than the Imperium. It's just different. It's a confederation of worlds, bound together by common heritage and a common belief in the destiny of the Solomani. The Solomani Cause is no more evil than Manifest Destiny. It has a nasty side, true. A small minority of Solomani are genocidal extremists, but most are not. The Movement is a big tent. Don't beleive all the Imperial propaganda.
YMMV
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Kirk? Bah! No Trek in my Traveller, please.
As I see it, the Imperium is no more 'good' than were the historical Persian, Roman, Spanish, British empires. It's big. It's really big. Sometimes its rulers make pious proclamations; sometimes they truly mean these things. That slavery ban had a lot to do with selling more Zhunastu megacorp robots, and scoring propaganda points.
The Solomani Confederation is really no more 'evil' than the Imperium. It's just different. It's a confederation of worlds, bound together by common heritage and a common belief in the destiny of the Solomani. The Solomani Cause is no more evil than Manifest Destiny. It has a nasty side, true. A small minority of Solomani are genocidal extremists, but most are not. The Movement is a big tent. Don't beleive all the Imperial propaganda.
YMMV
The point was by way of analogy to counter the previous poster's over negative picture.
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Actually the Third Imperium feels more like the British Empire then all of those empires combat mentioned. Though it is caste-based rather then ethnic based. Being Sylean doesn't seem to have an overwhelming advantage the way being English did in Imperial Britain. At most being from Sylea(or Vland, or Terra for that matter) is just an interesting subject for a Noble to bring up at a ball.
That was probably different at the founding.
That was probably different at the founding.
Yes, the Emperor is all right guy but like all humans he has had to make difficult choices. However, I fear that you not reading cannon too closely unless you happen to subscribe to the Wiseman/GT view of the Imperium which certainly is a lighter shade of grey.
So, it is the Imperium that often is looked as something generally good as noted in the previous post - a necessary evil - ensures free trade, collective security, stabilizes the social structure, provides an ideal business environment, etc.
But then there are the rebels (and also Rebels but we will not discuss that scum here) - Free Traders, Non Conformists (the legendary Other), Independent Worlds, etc. who see the Imperium for what it is.
The average citizen does not really get wrapped up in this save when he needs to make a trip to replace document x with the purpose of getting y. The bureaucracy does the job well enough and you might have to grease it, as that always helps. Or you might pull strings on the patronage pillar and low and behold, you find yourself more of a client than a citizen.
No, I don't subscribe to the notion of the Imperium just a nice Federation in redcoats. Having said that...the Imperium does not employ jackboots but it is rather the iron heel of the armed forces brought to bear, if a world or situation gets out of hand. Also, the Imperium colonizes the mind of the citizen to accept all these norms as givens and postulates of the good society.
As per the Captain Kirk reference...no, he is just a blind fool like Pickard...this Imperium is more like the world of Starfleet Intelligence series 3 something or other...hinted at throughout the ST universe...and canonized in one of the series of novels or radio play and then brought into being with DS9 (I think) or Enterprise.
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Picard was a snobby self-righteous jerk. But be that as it may, Captain Kirk COULD be imagined as serving the Third Imperium, though he would probably prefer the IISS. The Imperium's servants vary. And the nastier things would not be routinely done by naval captains or IISS officers, or most bureaucrats. That part of the Imperium would simply not be the part of it where an "Imperial Captain Kirk" hangs out. But I suppose "lighter shade of gray" is a fair enough description. Or "Edgier federation" as I put it.
As for "suscribe" wouldn't "describe" be a better term? That is how it is described by the book. Your emphasis on the Imperium's dark side is fine, and is justifiable by writing the book off as PR. But that is what is written. Of course I am "reading canon to closely"-when I want to describe canon. That is what one does.
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For my picture of the Imperium I use them mostly in a rather Olympian role. Sometimes they are allies, sometimes rivals, sometimes just atmosphere and setting-maker. A lot of times they appear as referee's or observers.
Members of the Imperium, though are different. I often use Oberlinders as allies and Tukeras as enemies. Oberlinders have style. I don't know why I took a dislike to Tukeras above other Megas though.
Members of the Imperium, though are different. I often use Oberlinders as allies and Tukeras as enemies. Oberlinders have style. I don't know why I took a dislike to Tukeras above other Megas though.
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