How to Improve the Kinunir?

[Vladika]

Mike and Vladika,
I expected more from you than this personal attack and swearing. "Poor idea.":rofl: That is your opinion only. Do whatever you want in YTU. That is why it's YTU. :rofl::rofl:

Where was my "personal attack"? I think to the contrary... As for "swearing" I think not.

I think the OPs heart was in the right place

And you are right in that it was my personal opinion, as clearly stated...

I still think this is a poor idea.

This is one of a number of efforts to build camaraderie and support the board. As mentioned COTI canon is not original canon. Simply, a vote by member of what we think might be the possible solution to various questions discussed for topics discussed for 15 years. People seem to forget previous discussions.

I still think your heart was in the right place, but, as you can see, from the responses so far, it does appear to be divisive.

As for "camaraderie and support the board." I certainly do believe that was your intent. I ascribe no malice to you for your idea, nor to me in disagreeing with the method.

and (I) see some point to encourage Moot membership...

I'm disappointed in those that shoot first and never ask questions. The only thing ridiculous is that behavior.

I don't believe I shot anyone, just disagreed. I thought that was permitted?

 

[savage]

Where was my "personal attack"? I think to the contrary... As for "swearing" I think not.


As for "camaraderie and support the board." I certainly do believe that was your intent. I ascribe no malice to you for your idea, nor to me in disagreeing with the method.

I take the abbreviation you used as vulgar language. That is what it is intended as. I was stunned because in the past you've both been very positive and added technical discussion value.
I suppose we can agree to disagree, but laughing at the efforts of those trying to improve the Moot is not supportive. And will get the same response.

Think about this. There is no reason for the Moot members not to try to make improvements, try different things. We don't need to moderators to add value. Get out of the same old ruts and add a bit more interest to membership.

Let's leave it at that.

Everyone,
For those that do not want to participate in a Moot vote, for whatever reason, that is your personal choice. And we respect it. Marc (and Hunter before him) kindly provides a board for discussion and we get some benefit from participating in the expense. Please, do not undermine, or disrespect those of us that are trying new things, and having fun with it! The entire idea is to have fun. Right? Not to shame each other.

If you want to participate in the Kinunir vote. Please, join us. All nobles are welcome to participate. And can debate the outcome with non-moot members until after the 4th Imperium.
:file_21:

 

[Timerover51]

If you really want to improve the Kinunir using says High Guard or something later, then add a couple of zeros to its tonnage and have at it. That does assume a Large-Ship universe.

 

[mike wightman]

That's something I proposed back on page 1.

I want to preserve the Kinunir class as a ship type capable of holding the line at the battle of the two suns - a BG TL15 70kt battle cruiser could possibly do that, a 1200t ship in a HG2 universe can't.

 

[Dagrill]

I don't believe I shot anyone, just disagreed. I thought that was permitted?

Hi,

Can I just say I support John in what he was trying to do here. We have just being discussing membership and benefits in the moot and I for one was totally unaware that this forum was provided at a loss until I joined recently.

I think it's a good idea to add value to moot membership & encourage people to join and have a bit of fun.

I'm guessing that when the votes done the result will be passed to Strephron
to make a judgement anyway....

Kind Regards

David

 

[Vladika]

I take the abbreviation you used as vulgar language. That is what it is intended as. I was stunned because in the past you've both been very positive and added technical discussion value.
I suppose we can agree to disagree, but laughing at the efforts of those trying to improve the Moot is not supportive. And will get the same response.

Think about this. There is no reason for the Moot members not to try to make improvements, try different things. We don't need to moderators to add value. Get out of the same old ruts and add a bit more interest to membership.

Let's leave it at that.

Everyone,
For those that do not want to participate in a Moot vote, for whatever reason, that is your personal choice. And we respect it. Marc (and Hunter before him) kindly provides a board for discussion and we get some benefit from participating in the expense. Please, do not undermine, or disrespect those of us that are trying new things, and having fun with it! The entire idea is to have fun. Right? Not to shame each other.

If you want to participate in the Kinunir vote. Please, join us. All nobles are welcome to participate. And can debate the outcome with non-moot members until after the 4th Imperium.
:file_21:

Please allow me to clarify the "laughter" emotion I used. The idea of "CotI Canon" is frankly hysterical to me. Not that I wish to ridicule other members, but simply many discussions go on for years and are even resurrected from the dead to rehash with no agreement.

The debate, discussion, differing thoughts and approaches I find both important and helpful.

The idea that there is ever going to be an agreed upon "CotI Canon", while it would be wonderful, I just don't see happening.

Thanks for noting I've been a friend to CotI. I'd certainly be a friend of yours too. I do tend to disagree with friends though on any number of occasions. Mike W became a friend out of disagreement, TimeRover in spite of some heated words, and Hans because I mostly agree with him but... well... Hans is Hans

Who can agree all the time?

BTW If you read my Moot postings on membership you'll see I've proposed a solution or two that never even engendered a response. Like a method for paying more voluntarily, should anyone make that choice. I would. I upped my membership level this time around but am going to stay a Baron (Just sounds cooler, to me.)

 

[MCEvans]

Kinunir purpose

I have a question on the purpose of the Kinunir from a game POV not a IN POV.

From an IN POV it really has no logical reason for existence other than as a test bed for emerging technologies. In T5 would this put it in a high 15 or low 16 or possibly prototype? (I don't have T5 so just asking.)

From a game POV the Kinunir is a perfect ship to keep PCs in check. The Kinunir has better fire power than just about any ship the PCs can legitimately get a hold of. If the PCs are running Merc ops they would be needing to run a TL15 Company size unit with BD and med - hvy armor before the Marine unit on board would have to call in for support.

Locations Spinward Marches & Solomani Rim and this was before either supplement was out and there was a published OTU.

So from an IN POV there is little to no logic for the Kinunir.
From a game POV this is a wonderful tool for the referee to keep PCs in check without the need to justify larger ships or more of the same/similar class of ships.

:CoW: IMTU a group of PCs survived and recovered the Kinunir with its Warrant used the Warrant to finish the other 2 and the 3 became the core of a multi-purpose merc unit that operated outside of the 3I. At the time there was no Duke Norris & nobody questioned the holder of a Warrant. :CoW:

So how to improve the Kinunir? As a tool get rid of the buggy AI & BG and make it the State of the art stuff. As for the IN get rid of the BG, update the AI and put them in remote clusters, District 256 or down in the Trojan Reach.

 

[savage]

Who can agree all the time?

BTW If you read my Moot postings on membership you'll see I've proposed a solution or two that never even engendered a response. Like a method for paying more voluntarily, should anyone make that choice. I would. I upped my membership level this time around but am going to stay a Baron (Just sounds cooler, to me.)

Yes.
And Yes. I saw your postings on membership. Since, the board is led by volunteers, I think we occasionally need a little discussion with the owner to move things forward.

 

[savage]

If you really want to improve the Kinunir using says High Guard or something later, then add a couple of zeros to its tonnage and have at it. That does assume a Large-Ship universe.

Back to the Topic.
That was mentioned by Mike before and is an interesting point.

Hans has mentioned, we have "a lot" pirate hunters. I forget the post.

In Corridor Sector that is exactly what they did. Deployed larger vessels (at the very least destroyer escorts) to fight corsairs.

 

[Hyphen]

¹ Something like equal odds until and unless one invokes that mysterious advantage that planetary defenses seem to have that enabled Jewell and Efate to hold out against a siege for months and years.​

Hans

A flotilla of 1000t high-tech SDBs, supported by numerous deep-site meson guns, perhaps?

 

[rancke]

A flotilla of 1000t high-tech SDBs, supported by numerous deep-site meson guns, perhaps?

I don't have the figures to prove it, and I may simply be channeling Age of Sail tropes, but I get the distinct feeling that Jewell and Efate are supposed to have held off a lot more than their own weight in Zhodani forces for many months.

Perhaps it's just that the two worlds had a lot more defensive meson sites for the same money because they didn't have to pay for weapons platforms (ships). That is, that they weren't really outnumbered by the attackers.


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

IIRC, a *very* Kinunir-like ship is in either the Brilliant Lances or Battle Rider counter set.

A TNE version of the Kinunir is on p38 of the Brilliant Lances Technical Booklet. It's counter is on the rear of the counter sheet, next to the Broadsword.

There's also a counter in Battle Rider, back-printed with it's BR stats. Again, it's next to the Broadsword; whether this indicates a certain distain and relegation on the part of Imperial Navy strategists is up for discussion (and the cause of a number of bar-room brawls in the Regina subsector, no doubt...)

 

[atpollard]

Strictly personal opinion, but I think that what it needs most is a new exterior design.
Space Planes are for shuttles and other interface craft.
Deep space warships should not look like flying wings.

YMMV

 

[mike wightman]

They should if they want to skim fuel from a gas giant or operate in a world's atmosphere.

 

[atpollard]

They should if they want to skim fuel from a gas giant or operate in a world's atmosphere.

Which is tolerable for a 1200 dTon ship in a Big Ship universe.

In a Small Ship Universe it feels more like designing aircraft carriers to be capable of beach landings so they could take on supplies ... that's what the support ships are for.

I mean are you really planning on using the Kinunir to land marines?
Or fly NOE to attack an armored division of Trepedia?

Even if you do want/need 'streamlined', why a wing shape?
At 4G, it really doesn't need the lift.

[Please, do not take this, in any way, as an attack on your post ... I just needed to vent on why the design annoys me.]

It looks more like a passenger liner than a warship.

The Chrysanthemum (1000 dTons) looks more like a warship.

 

[Orr]

Even if you do want/need 'streamlined', why a wing shape?

Because that shape was easier to draw in 1979 before CAD-CAM programs, and the computers that run them, were available to small game publishers.

Hasn't Loren Wiseman written about how the paste up of documents at GDW during that period actually entailed physically cutting and pasting each page and it's content together?

I don't think anyone at GDW was a trained draftsman either even if the various tools were available. Would you even recognize a French curve if you saw one? Or know how it is used?

 

[atpollard]

Because that shape was easier to draw in 1979 before CAD-CAM programs, and the computers that run them, were available to small game publishers.

Hasn't Loren Wiseman written about how the paste up of documents at GDW during that period actually entailed physically cutting and pasting each page and it's content together?

Just for the record, I don't dislike the picture.
I just don't think that it looks like a large, space warship ... which is the impression I get from Adventure 1.
In a similar case, the 800 dT Mercenary Cruiser really looks like it should be a streamlined hull and able to land on a planet.

I don't think anyone at GDW was a trained draftsman either even if the various tools were available. Would you even recognize a French curve if you saw one? Or know how it is used?

The really sad part is that I am older than dirt and probably still own a set of french curves ... packed away with my ink pens and compass.

 

[shield]

snap - also have french curve and compasses, but thankfully I missed out on the log tables. But we do tend to forget what document production was like back in the 70s and early 80s.

 

[savage]

... still own a set of french curves ... packed away with my ink pens and compass.

Me too.
The people I met at the GDW art department, we're artists, from recollection out of the ISU art department. They were pretty busy and didn't always see the copy, just a description. (or so i was told)

GDW had a very old, "something or other" layout machine. Copy was re-entered into the machine. I assume the picture was added later. I never watched any of my friends doing it. Some of this probably pre-dates MS word.

 

[rancke]

Just for the record, I don't dislike the picture.
I just don't think that it looks like a large, space warship ... which is the impression I get from Adventure 1.

Then it's a good thing that the OTU underwent a shift in the Cosmic Axis that changed it from a small-ship-and-ridiculously-few-of-them universe to a big-ship-and-a-lot-more-possibly-even-enough-of-them universe, in the process changing the Kinunir from a large space warship to a dinky little escort.

That was almost 35 years ago...


Hans