Hull Breaching Charges / Devices??

[samuelvss]

I can imagine hull breaching charges, and have done so abstractly in campaigns.

Has anyone found anything or worked this out for themselves?

Obviously, blasting a right big hole with ship's weaponry works, just like a 120mm HEAP round works to take open the front door of a mobile home, with similar problems (along the line of "destroying the village to save it"!)

I am thinking a circular or oblong cutting shape charge would do it. Remember the orders of magnitude (while not the specifics) for ship hulls in Striker, I am thinking this would have to be HUGE.:nonono:

That being said, in Zero-G, maybe less of a problem. A role for the demo' droid?

["Just paint the center of mass for your breach site with an energy weapon or light pointing device, and DemoDroid® does the rest!"]

Are there other devices anyone has seen/used?

For one thing, you need a clear breach site (not into a fuel tank, cargo hold behind 100dTons of ore containers, etc.). A hatch is an obvious choice, but because 1. it's an obvious choice, 2. repair might be delayed, and 3. it may well lead to another hatch, it is not the best.:nonono:

Another question: if we determine the best breaching methods, can we then counter those through appropriate designs?:smirk:

 

[far-trader]

There's a brief bit on what it takes to breach various ship components in CT (Supplement 7 Traders and Gunboats iirc, I'll look it up later).

The Breaching Charge (which works much like you outline) was introduced in fullness in MT iirc (not sure where, again I can look it up later).

 

[far-trader]

Oh, something you might want to google if you're curious, shaped water explosive charges, kind of new, very cool.

 

[flykiller]

For one thing, you need a clear breach site (not into a fuel tank, cargo hold behind 100dTons of ore containers, etc.).

there are also fuel transfer lines, high-voltage power lines, interior comm lines, engineering and flight control lines, air lines, light fixtures, fuse boxes, transfer panels, air tanks, water tanks, fresher recycling systems, storage lockers, big emergency batteries, inertial compensation systems, hull frame bracing, bulkhead edges, engineering drives, and whatnot. if a fuel line or a high-pressure air flask or a high-voltage line is breeched, it will be a memorable day. if the breeched compartment has a fuel leak and is at -200F, or has a fire and is at 600F, it will be a real attention-getter.

normal airlock entries and bridge windows are the only part of the hull guaranteed to be clear.

 

[far-trader]

From CT Supplement 7 we get:

Interior Walls take 100 points of damage by an energy weapon or explosion to make a person sized hole (1) through. Bullets are less efficient and it requires 1000 points of damage.

Interior Doors are the same as interior walls for breaching. (2)

Bulkheads are very tough and require 1000 points of energy weapon or explosion damage to make a person sized hole. Bullets are ineffective.

And while the rules don't mention it...

Hatches in bulkheads are also tough, as tough as bulkheads so I think I'd treat them the same as bulkheads but apply my divide by 10 rule for doors and only need 100 points of energy weapon or explosion damage to force them open by applying the force to the locking mechanism or hinge.



(1) I've always pictured it as something you have to duck and step through sideways, about a foot off the ground and 4 feet high by 2 feet wide.

(2) Which always seemed wrong to me, everyone knows doors are the weak point. I figure it should be 1 point of energy weapon damage or 10 points of bullet damage to destroy a door. Typically by shooting the lock or hinges. By all means if you instead want to make a hole through the door the above will apply.

 

[far-trader]

Don't see the Breaching Charge after a quick look at MT but there are the Demolition Tables on pg 103 of the Referee's Manual with the required kilos of explosive to breach (1 meter diameter hole) a referenced armor value. It seems like a lot at a quick glance (167kg of conventional TL7 explosives or 18kg of shaped TL7 to breach armor value 1?).

I seem to recall the Breaching Charge was about 5kg and would make a hole in standard hull armor (armor 40? in MT). The table says 243kg of conventional TL13 explosives or 15kg of shaped TL13 to breach armor value 40).

 

[Patron Zero]

Avoiding Trouble

Unsure if it's covered anywhere in the various incarnations of Traveller rules but is there a way to "x-ray" a section before cutting or blasting through the hull ?

I can see this as just such a situation where a remote piloted vehicle like a small-medium sized drone would fill such a need quite neatly.

The buzz droids in the Star Wars-ROTS film were very interesting but prefer not to think of a TU were little mechanical gremlins are so commonly encountered. Enough of those wee beasties showing up as is aboard a starship without needing to order out for more.

 

[samuelvss]

.....the required kilos of explosive to breach (1 meter diameter hole) a referenced armor value. It seems like a lot at a quick glance (167kg of conventional TL7 explosives or 18kg of shaped TL7 to breach armor value 1?).

I seem to recall the Breaching Charge was about 5kg and would make a hole in standard hull armor (armor 40? in MT). The table says 243kg of conventional TL13 explosives or 15kg of shaped TL13 to breach armor value 40).

The ratios between shaped charges and conventional seem about right. 15 kg seems fine to make a hole, but a 1 m hole.... I recall under Striker, the basic hull armor value was 70ish, and went up from there. I am MT illiterate, so I am not sure how that translates. That's about in line with the 1000 points of energy weapon damage.:toast:

If I'm SWAG'ing, I'm SWAG'ing that 15 kg is low by a factor of about 3 or 4. I'd love to be convinced otherwise, though.

 

[far-trader]

Well a bit of googling didn't turn up the shaped water charge I'd seen but I did find currently under trial a flexible linear shaped charge for fast entry.

The stats are:

Grams/meter     Severance 1020 steel

  250g             16mm
  380g             20mm
  530g             25mm
  750g             30mm
 1120g             35mm

So all you need to do is find a conversion for Traveller armor to mm of 1020 steel and scale up as desired for heavier armor and factor in better power by TL.

 

[aramis]

In striker/MT,Pen is found by looking up the thickness in mm on the armor thickness table in the design section.

 

[samuelvss]

A solution !!

Hull-breaching charge, 1.5m.
TL13 565kg Cr2900.

Blows a hole around the rim of any hatch or iris valve, allowing immediate Zero-G assault through the breach (inner diameter of 1.3 m) by those in vacc suits and otherwise encumbered with weapons, armor and gear. Instantly severs the hatch, and blows it out away from the breach. Anyone standing directly in the path of the hatch will take 7D damage; anyone within 1.5 of the hatch on the inside will take 2D damage; anyone in contact with the inside of the hatch will take 4D damage. Attaches through magets or adhesive to the outer hull, and fired by a timer (20 sec to 30 min) or hand-held actuator using a firing wire (15 m). Other detonators may be used, but are not included. This charge will blow similar hole in any section of the hull; but, without very specific knowledge of what is behind the hole, this is very risky, as it may cause structural or mechanical damage and will quite possibly end up in a space without easy access past the hull breach (i.e.: a now mangled fresher).

From a tactical standpoint, non-airlock hatches are preferred. An airlock will take two charges, with a smaller diameter, custom charge used on the inner hatch. (A second charge can be modified by one with Demo skill so as to blow the inside hatch out the outside hole. Routine task, +2 for each level of Demo skill. If the the second hatch does not clear, it will be lodged inside the airlock, Routine task to clear.)

Lift pack.
TL13 30kg Cr 3000

Lifts the above charge (675 kg lift) for 3 min, allowing for loading and unloading without cargo handling equipment. Can be recharged from ship's power.

Porta-Hatch
TL9** 400kg Cr 2000

A specially designed hatch with fittings to be welded (or even bolted!) into a hole blown by the above 1.5 charge. It will be obvious that this is a refit to anyone seeing the hatch with any exposure to starships. The seals and fittings provided make a airtight seal when installed by anyone with Mechanical skill. Hatch sensors,etc, require Electrical skill to hook up to the mangled leads left behind by a hatch breach.

**The technology involved is TL8, but this kit is typically available only in conjunction with the above kit, or at any A or B starport. Otherwise, available through special manufacture at TL 8 for Cr40,000, requiring specifications and 1D weeks to find the vendors needed.


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O.K., this thread forced me to dig through unpacked boxes until I found my Striker stuff.:nonono:

My assumptions here are as follows:
1. to get a "man-sized hole" usable by those assaulting through it in zero-G, we want to cut at the circumference of a 150 diameter hole,
2. we want to cleanly & robustly cut through, with no item left to chance.
3. blowing hinges and bolts may be perfectly possible for one with the right access, time, demo skill, but will be too difficult in an assault of an unknown ship.

At TL13, using Striker, a linear cutting shape charge would be 118 kg/m, using 5Cr/kg, costing Cr 590, giving a penetration of 48. This gives no die roll to penetrate armor of 40, per the Striker errata sheet. For a smaller hole, a shorter charge can be used. (2*3.142*diameter), but this is the preferred solution.

A 20 kg shaped charge (Cr 100) will penetrate but that is designed to be a very small hole. The above charges are designed to make a very big hole, to avoid the hatch, the assault team, or any of their stuff from getting stuck in the hole, or even contacting its sides after the breach.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

 

[DaveChase]

Sorry, posting so late it the game on this one

From CT Supplement 7 we get:

Interior Walls take 100 points of damage by an energy weapon or explosion to make a person sized hole (1) through. Bullets are less efficient and it requires 1000 points of damage.

Interior Doors are the same as interior walls for breaching. (2)



(2) Which always seemed wrong to me, everyone knows doors are the weak point. I figure it should be 1 point of energy weapon damage or 10 points of bullet damage to destroy a door. Typically by shooting the lock or hinges. By all means if you instead want to make a hole through the door the above will apply.

I would like to point out a reality issue about doors. This might not apply to spaceship doors so take it for just a FYI

Many times individual will buy the best door possible for the given application. Ie front doors are strong, solid and usually a high R value. Interior doors are usually med to light weight and hollow core. Some are solid wood depending on the design, age and function of the door (panel solid wood versus one piece solid wood.)
This is typical of homes
But in some ofiices and business, doors in side are as strong as you would find for an exterior door. Some are metal with foam or other core insert. Steel framed possibly also.
(The above is just a point of reference. Now for my point)

When breaching or entering a room that has been shut or locked or barricaded by others on the other side, sometimes the wall is the best entry.
It depends on the wall structure used for interior space. I have seen heavy steel doors with honeycomb filled with a tough foam used to protect rooms. Locks and steel frame re-enforced doorways.

Yet the walls were simple 2x4 stud, drywall with a good paint job. Surprise of the individuals in the room when the M60 blows holes in the wall about 3 feet from the door is quite interesting to say the least. 50cal gets even more wonderous reactions.

I have seen rooms where the wall and door were super re-enforced for protection from entry. Shock and dismay of those protected individuals happen when part of the ceiling comes crashing down due to an explosive charge. Or even when bullets fly through the floor or ceiling taking them out.

Now I am sure that spaceships are very well built and could possibly be of the same structure on all 6 sides. But it is possible that certain design flaws or quirks are also built as part of the spaceship structure. I mean who designs spaceship interiors with the main thought of being assualted. Military ships possibly but not all of them.

I have seen designs of ships where the floor structure is super on about every other floor to make compartments of a sort (ie 2 floors height to a compartment). Probably to save weight and cost.

For quick and simple rules and game play, I would say keep it as the rules state. For some flavor and keep the group thinking or such, make different interior doors and wall structures.
For example, my cargo bay walls and doors in my ship designs are always thicker especially if there is an exterior hatch/bay doors.
Same with the engine room interior walls that connect to the rest of the ship.

May be there should be 3 types of interior walls
Standard divider walls (as per the rules)
Bulk head/compartment walls (equl to exterior hull)
re-enforced walls (150% of standar interior walls)
Same with the doors/hatches

Just my thoughts

Dave Chase

 

[far-trader]

I would like to point out a reality issue about doors...

Well said and true. I suppose I should have clarified my take above as based on typical home construction which is more the way I see starship interiors, which may not be a fair presumption either.