Wow am I ever late to this party! Belated thanks to Dave Nilsen for stepping forward and sharing all that you have in this thread. Like Aramis I'm one of those who railed against you in the past for your "obstinate silence" and refusal to "come clean," not realizing that you weren't doing so on purpose. If you were ever hurt by reading anything I wrote I apologize. Thanks again for all the work you did for Traveller when you were with GDW (even though I didn't agree with most of it then, and still don't agree with a lot of it even now, even after having read your clarifications and explanations -- I'm at least convinced that your heart was indeed in the right place, and that's what matters) and thanks even more for taking the time to share all of this with us now, so much after the fact, and in spite of so much scorn being thrown in your direction for the past dozen years.
(hypothetical) What would you ask Dave Nilsen?
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Dave,
I thoroughly enjoyed H&I. Actually the designers notes were some of the best stuff. I'd love to sit down with you and pick through the various allusions to see if I guessed where you were coming from!
I do have to ask one... "Who is the bug-eyed maritime crewman mentioned on page 46 of H&I?"
I did not get quite the level of "brokenness" in the Ithklur psyche that you put forward. I'll have to go re-read H&I. I can see how that may be though given the millenia of hiver manipulations.
None of the information on the "unbroken" vs. "broken" gurvin and za'tachk races made it into the GT Aliens book. I'd love to hear what you had planned as contrasts for those races!
Lastly any more belly of the beast hints would be waaaaaaaayyyyy cool!
I'm gonna dust off ole'Heather and play him ASAP!
lastly, thank you very, very much for taking the time to answer all of our questions!
Matt Ashley
I thoroughly enjoyed H&I. Actually the designers notes were some of the best stuff. I'd love to sit down with you and pick through the various allusions to see if I guessed where you were coming from!
I do have to ask one... "Who is the bug-eyed maritime crewman mentioned on page 46 of H&I?"
I did not get quite the level of "brokenness" in the Ithklur psyche that you put forward. I'll have to go re-read H&I. I can see how that may be though given the millenia of hiver manipulations.
None of the information on the "unbroken" vs. "broken" gurvin and za'tachk races made it into the GT Aliens book. I'd love to hear what you had planned as contrasts for those races!
Lastly any more belly of the beast hints would be waaaaaaaayyyyy cool!
I'm gonna dust off ole'Heather and play him ASAP!
lastly, thank you very, very much for taking the time to answer all of our questions!
Matt Ashley
Originally posted by David Freakin' Nilsen:
Matt--
Glad you liked the Ithklur, and sorry if you didn't like the designers' notes.
That's cool that your Hiver character was named Heather. I like that name.
I used "feral" not in the sense of wearing loincloths and using flint daggers, but in the sense of, "not domesticated or cultivated," in the same way that freeing the flowers would be making them feral.
Please forgive me if some of this stuff comes back slowly and in pieces, and feel free to ask me more again.
The "feral" or non-domesticated Ithklur are not separate from the "semi/pseudo/maybe domesticated Ithklur" described, but are contiguous with them, socially and even spiritually/emotionally. The big thing is that these are the Ithklur that live in the Ithklur autonomous region, or whatever it was called. It shows up on some maps someplace, maybe only in CT/MT. This map was not published in H&I because it was to have been revealed over the course of the IBOB Epic, and H&I was intended to describe a snapshot in time of what the RC could know of the situation, not what was true back within the Federation where the RC campaign could not see.
The Ithklur in the Ithklur Autonomous Area live under their own government and laws, rather than under Hiver government. They have their own starships and technology, although most of it is Hiver knock-offs. Think of the Warsaw Pact technology's relation to Soviet technology. Part of the "deal" between Hivers and Ithklur that provides Ithklur military services to the Federation is the guarantee of the Ithklur autonomous area, and the ability of Ithklur to pass back and forth from the AA and the Federation (although as you can guess, the Hivers impose screenings and difficulties for those doing so).
In addition to the Ithklur, the AA includes members of the "resistance," i.e., resisting, "unbroken" members of the Gurvin and Za'tachk races (I had completed some work on comparing the native and Hiver-manipulated states of these races for the GT book, but as I've observed, I don't know how it worked out). Hivers are not allowed free travel within the AA, or rather I should say Hivers that represent the Hiver Federation policy. Hivers such as M. Devela would be welcome, but remain under observation.
Hivers within the AA are subject to Ithklur law, including execution for violation of Ithklur standards of honesty. The Exposer of Deceit member of any Ithklur group is also permitted to exercise these rules under certain circumstances, and the Hivers allow this extremely rare case as part of the balance of power with the Ithklur. Knowing that they are incapable/unwilling to exercise a variety of necessary violence, the Hivers accept the usefulness of the Ithklur, and are willing to accept some costs to have this capability. In addition, they also don't wish to find out what the Ithklur might do if they don't maintain this friendly detente.
In practice, "feral" Ithklur will travel to go "work" in the Federation for a while, and others will return back to the AA to retire, to learn and study, etc. Ithklur organizations within the AA are regarded as generally more reliable, trustworthy, and "true" than those in the Federation. Organizations within the AA are believed to be more ancient in authority as well, although this is often not true. Many of these are as influenced by manipulation as any Federation Hiver.
One aspect of the cultural difference is that there are some "older" Ithklur words as opposed to the the common Federation Ithklur lexicon. These older words are those like the artillery competition, pick-up game, etc., in H&I as distinct from many of the shorter, more streamlined words.
More as I think of it.
Dave
Mr. Nilsen,
Thank you so very much for your additional comments regarding the Empress Wave. Having the Wave act more like a 'spill' from ruptured membrane rather than a classic 'propogating wavefront' quite neatly wraps up many of the problems I had with the Wave's timing.
As for your ideas about the Wave still being 'plastic', that is entirely understandable. The Wave and the effects you outline would have been a major part of TNE and a major addition to canon. Taking the time to get all this right; time that GDW sadly did not have, was a wise course. Introducing the Wave first as a barely glimpsed phenomena and then slowly adding the carefully constructed follow-on details not only would have allowed to to creat an intriguing story arc, it would have also given you time to get it right.
Thank you again. I do hope you enjoy your holidays.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Thank you so very much for your additional comments regarding the Empress Wave. Having the Wave act more like a 'spill' from ruptured membrane rather than a classic 'propogating wavefront' quite neatly wraps up many of the problems I had with the Wave's timing.
As for your ideas about the Wave still being 'plastic', that is entirely understandable. The Wave and the effects you outline would have been a major part of TNE and a major addition to canon. Taking the time to get all this right; time that GDW sadly did not have, was a wise course. Introducing the Wave first as a barely glimpsed phenomena and then slowly adding the carefully constructed follow-on details not only would have allowed to to creat an intriguing story arc, it would have also given you time to get it right.
Thank you again. I do hope you enjoy your holidays.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Mr. Dougherty,
You are, of course, free to interject with comments regarding your version of Traveller's post-1200 timeline in this thread. This is your website after all. Also, as you correctly point out, your version will be canonical and Mr. Nilsen's comments are not.
I found your asides rather interesting and not just because they were sneak peeks at M:1248. Here we all were, sitting around a virtual campfire listening to Commodore Bwana spin his long hoped for tales about his work and What Might Have Been. However, during our guest's tales, you suddenly felt the need to post 'sneak peeks' of your work and What Will Be, peeks you had strenuously avoided during the past 2 years since M:1248 was first concieved. You also made sure that we all were reminded that the Commodore's tales were not, would not, and could never be official.
I find that much more intriguing than the fate of Craig's and Margeret's factions. Don't you?
Sincerely,
Bill, aka Larsen
You are, of course, free to interject with comments regarding your version of Traveller's post-1200 timeline in this thread. This is your website after all. Also, as you correctly point out, your version will be canonical and Mr. Nilsen's comments are not.
I found your asides rather interesting and not just because they were sneak peeks at M:1248. Here we all were, sitting around a virtual campfire listening to Commodore Bwana spin his long hoped for tales about his work and What Might Have Been. However, during our guest's tales, you suddenly felt the need to post 'sneak peeks' of your work and What Will Be, peeks you had strenuously avoided during the past 2 years since M:1248 was first concieved. You also made sure that we all were reminded that the Commodore's tales were not, would not, and could never be official.
I find that much more intriguing than the fate of Craig's and Margeret's factions. Don't you?
Sincerely,
Bill, aka Larsen
"However, during our guest's tales, you suddenly felt the need to post 'sneak peeks' of your work and What Will Be, peeks you had strenuously avoided during the past 2 years since M:1248 was first concieved. You also made sure that we all were reminded that the Commodore's tales were not, would not, and could never be official.
I find that much more intriguing than the fate of Craig's and Margeret's factions. Don't you?"
You know why I did that? BECAUSE I THOUGHT TRAVELLER FANS MIGHT BE INTERESTED.
You suggest perhaps that I did it to 'defend' my little corner of the marketplace? Or to ensure that Dave Nilsen doesn't come riding back into town and snatch away my moment of fanboy-turned-gane-designer glory?
I'd care, were it not for the fact that you also once suggested that I was a deceitful piece of scum - I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what you were saying about journalists - who should be murdered without consequences for being part of a profession that - in your opinion - reports less than 100% truth.
Please cease commenting on what I do on our company's boards. You long ago gave up any right to an opinion about me or my activities, and you know why.
... and for your information, 1248 was cenceinved a lot more than 2 years ago. A petty point but an important one. You see, while you were telling the world that murdering journalists was acceptable and even fun, *I* was working to get 1248 published. And look, I succeeded.
That must stick in your throat, mustn't it? Jounrnalstic scum like me at the helm of a Traveller setting. How awful.
I left the TML because of your attitude. Now you seem determined to bring this vendetta of yours over to COTI.
I don't really feel like tolerating that.
I find that much more intriguing than the fate of Craig's and Margeret's factions. Don't you?"
You know why I did that? BECAUSE I THOUGHT TRAVELLER FANS MIGHT BE INTERESTED.
You suggest perhaps that I did it to 'defend' my little corner of the marketplace? Or to ensure that Dave Nilsen doesn't come riding back into town and snatch away my moment of fanboy-turned-gane-designer glory?
I'd care, were it not for the fact that you also once suggested that I was a deceitful piece of scum - I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what you were saying about journalists - who should be murdered without consequences for being part of a profession that - in your opinion - reports less than 100% truth.
Please cease commenting on what I do on our company's boards. You long ago gave up any right to an opinion about me or my activities, and you know why.
... and for your information, 1248 was cenceinved a lot more than 2 years ago. A petty point but an important one. You see, while you were telling the world that murdering journalists was acceptable and even fun, *I* was working to get 1248 published. And look, I succeeded.
That must stick in your throat, mustn't it? Jounrnalstic scum like me at the helm of a Traveller setting. How awful.
I left the TML because of your attitude. Now you seem determined to bring this vendetta of yours over to COTI.
I don't really feel like tolerating that.
One other thing.
One reason I wanted it made clear that 1248 was now official and that Dave's Answers are What Was Plannes was this:
It's true.
Interesting, that, I think
But you see I wanted the situation clear so that nobody got confused. There are good business reasons for that of course, but also the possibility that Traveller fans might not realise what was going on, and be later diasppointed when we 'change' everything.
One reason I wanted it made clear that 1248 was now official and that Dave's Answers are What Was Plannes was this:
It's true.
Interesting, that, I think
But you see I wanted the situation clear so that nobody got confused. There are good business reasons for that of course, but also the possibility that Traveller fans might not realise what was going on, and be later diasppointed when we 'change' everything.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Thus is illustrated Rule #1 of RPG discussion boards: Do not make snarky, bitchy comments at game designers unless you want your ass handed to you. Especially when the aforementioned game designer moderates this board .
.What I'm so upset at is this...
I got very excited by Dave's return, and in a moment of fanboy enthusiasm let slip some facts I've been sitting on for years. I want to push 1248 and Traveller forward NOW, but there are so many other things need doing first that it's driving me nuts.
My enthusiasm got the better of me for a moment, and suddenly it's all sinister and self-serving.
I jumped through a lot of hoops to get to this point, but you know what I did first? I hunted down Dave and asked about a joint project. When that didn't work out for various reasons (not Dave's doing), I went on with my own plans.
I got very excited by Dave's return, and in a moment of fanboy enthusiasm let slip some facts I've been sitting on for years. I want to push 1248 and Traveller forward NOW, but there are so many other things need doing first that it's driving me nuts.
My enthusiasm got the better of me for a moment, and suddenly it's all sinister and self-serving.
I jumped through a lot of hoops to get to this point, but you know what I did first? I hunted down Dave and asked about a joint project. When that didn't work out for various reasons (not Dave's doing), I went on with my own plans.
M
Malenfant
Guest
FWIW, I didn't think it was sinister or self-serving at all. It's understandable that you'd want to plug 1248 here, since perhaps some people attracted to this thread from elsewhere might not be familiar with it.
Does Dave have access to the Moot yet? Can he access the 1248 files?
Does Dave have access to the Moot yet? Can he access the 1248 files?
Michael Schulz
SOC-12
Strange. I actually really enjoy the thought of this thread resembling a virtual campfire. I had just started exploring Traveller after a brief encounter with it ten years ago when I stumbled across and started lurking on this message board. Immeadiately, I was struck by both the passion which people felt for, or against, the new era and my own happiness that this timeline was going to be continued by MJD's work.
Sadly, when I first started reading threads here, they seemed for the most part old conversations that sat mostly inert and that I wished would be continued at a pace faster than a post or two a day. I had just about resigned myself to shuffling this site off into an obscure bookmark file to be checked once every couple of weeks when Dave appeared. I registered here almost immeadiately, and only the dire financial straits of grad school prevented me from tossing in cash to join the Moot.
Suddenly this board was buzzing with activity as we eagerly gathered around Dave, asked questions, offered thanks, and read what might have been and what was meant in what was. I get the impression that we were all pretty excited about it and I for one thought it was only natural when MJD slipped in some tidbits detailing similarities and differences between his vision of TNE and Dave's.
What kind of campfire would this have been if we weren't eager to swap stories or listen attentively to those that were told? Without tangents, interuptions, interjections and exchanges this would have been a lecture instead of one of my favorite message board experiences. Personally, as a newbie, I would like to not only thank Dave and MJD for sharing their visions with us, but everyone who has posted on this thread for giving me some insight into their readings of Traveller and what they have done with it.
Oh, and MJD, I for one am very interested in and grateful for any crumbs of the 1248 pie you let slip onto this board. I am glad that this thread has given me the oppertunity to learn more about what might have been and what will be. Thanks one and all.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
ouch.
Note to self: never, ever piss off MJD.
Note to self: never, ever piss off MJD.
Hmph. I thought my grouchiness was now legendary and everyone knew not to do that. Ah well.
As to 1248 crumbs, let's think...
The game universe of 1248 consists mainly of several small to moderate powers separated by an 'ocean' of Wilds. Trade Corridors run (or sometimes fight) through these Wilds but there are worlds out there that won't be contacted for a while yet.
There is a Fourth Imperium, and a Vilani Imperium, and an Imperial Regency. PLus the Second Rule of Man and the Terran Commonwealth.
Between them there is room for pocket empire-building, exploration and whatnot.
As to 1248 crumbs, let's think...
The game universe of 1248 consists mainly of several small to moderate powers separated by an 'ocean' of Wilds. Trade Corridors run (or sometimes fight) through these Wilds but there are worlds out there that won't be contacted for a while yet.
There is a Fourth Imperium, and a Vilani Imperium, and an Imperial Regency. PLus the Second Rule of Man and the Terran Commonwealth.
Between them there is room for pocket empire-building, exploration and whatnot.
Michael Schulz
SOC-12
Cool. Sounds like you are really running with the whole 17th century nautical ideas I've seen floating around here. And lo, the star vikings were replaced by the sea wolves.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"Hmph. I thought my grouchiness was now legendary and everyone knew not to do that. Ah well."
They do now. I think you need this: http://www.viceking.net/bubblewrap.swf
"There is a Fourth Imperium, and a Vilani Imperium, and an Imperial Regency. PLus the Second Rule of Man and the Terran Commonwealth."
Hmm. Will the real Imperium please stand up...?
I think there could be fireworks when they finally all meet.
They do now. I think you need this: http://www.viceking.net/bubblewrap.swf
"There is a Fourth Imperium, and a Vilani Imperium, and an Imperial Regency. PLus the Second Rule of Man and the Terran Commonwealth."
Hmm. Will the real Imperium please stand up...?
I think there could be fireworks when they finally all meet.
Erik Boielle
SOC-12
I had something to say for Cold Warriors, with clashing ideologies and proxy wars and international incidents and The Hunt For Red October and spy swaps on bridges.
*bounce bounce*
I never liked the stale and reaking 3rd imperium. TNE:1238 lets me play Traveller in a universe to my liking!
If Dave's (Thanks for your replies!) return can further enhance MJDs already brilliant work I can almost wait a little longer for the finalised product.
Right now I'm buying as soon as it hits the shelves!
I too love the oceans of wilds inbetween the pocket empires! It is just great! There is exploration possibilities, First contacts, Archeology and still political play where I as a GM can easily and in fun and rewarding ways let the players really be at the centre of the action. Also it still allows for the more usual "classic" adventure possibilities.
All wrapped in a great package of TNE:1248!
Keep up the great work!
I never liked the stale and reaking 3rd imperium. TNE:1238 lets me play Traveller in a universe to my liking!
If Dave's (Thanks for your replies!) return can further enhance MJDs already brilliant work I can almost wait a little longer for the finalised product.
Right now I'm buying as soon as it hits the shelves!
I too love the oceans of wilds inbetween the pocket empires! It is just great! There is exploration possibilities, First contacts, Archeology and still political play where I as a GM can easily and in fun and rewarding ways let the players really be at the centre of the action. Also it still allows for the more usual "classic" adventure possibilities.
All wrapped in a great package of TNE:1248!
Keep up the great work!
