CT Only: Imperial Citizen

[mike wightman]

Unfortunately the folks at DGP got their setting details wrong. Surprise.

The vast majority of humans in the galaxy by the time the Terrans encountered the Imperium were Vilani.

10,000 systems (actually more, I want to keep the maths simple) with an average population of a few hundred million per system by the time it is averaged out (the Vilani settled worlds that were hospitable and populations tended to be in the hundreds of millions).

That's one trillion Vilani there or there about.

Terran population was 12 billion during the Interstellar Wars era.

How much of the Terran population left to interbreed with the Vilani?

Let's assume ten percent, or fifty percent. One to six billion versus 1000 times that number, DGP got their numbers wrong. The majority of Imperial worlds would be lucky so get a cruiser complement of Terrans.

DGP made up their numbers without actually considering the setting or the maths.

The vast majority of the Third Imperium will be almost entirely purely Vilani genetically. That is unless their Terran overlords practiced a particular medieval right...

 

[Supplement Four]

Unfortunately the folks at DGP got their setting details wrong. Surprise..

I see your point, but I don't agree with your opinion.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Imperial citizens are a mix of Vilani and Solomani. Those are cultural backgrounds.

Why is it that there are no sourcebooks on the standard Imperial Citizen? We can apply Solomani more strongly to the Solomani Rim and the Solomani Confederation.

Is there a Vilani write up in JTAS? I know the Vilani and Vargr Sourcebook from DGP is an MT product.

Isn't it interesting that there's not a book that covers the culture of the modern Imperial Citizen in any edition of Traveller?

Am I missing something here?

I use the Mongoose Solomani Alien Module to part out who is (and who isn't) Terra-Human in the Imperium, and go from there with setting up other humanti races in my subsectors.

 

[mike wightman]

I see your point, but I don't agree with your opinion.

What don't you agree with?

The fact the Vilani population of the galaxy was three orders of magnitude at least greater than the Terran population?

That hybridisation between the two could not produce the numbers DGP made up?

The simple solution is to retcon away Vilani longevity and stick with the aging table as per the rules as written. The only other logical conclusion is the CT aging tables do not apply to the vast majority of the population of the Third Imperium.

 

[Supplement Four]

What don't you agree with?

I'm a fan of DGP material. I think its well thought out and implemented.

 

[aramis]

CT Solomani use the standard aging table.

Also, the Emperor's list gives some interesting numbers...

going by all listed emperors who died of natural causes...
Average age 118, St.Deviation = 40

Zhunastu and Lentuli Dynasties: average 145, St Dev 37

Alkhalikoi only: Av 91, StDev 20

Even with Anagathics (which aren't detailed mechanically in CT), the Zhunastu and Lentuli dynasties are notable.

Since we don't have hard and fast Anagathics rules, we have a bit of an issue determining just how far out of whack the numbers might be.

(Given a start after 50, and MT's "skip 2 rolls, and don't afvance on the table", Anagathics users still lose a point every 3 terms... but nobles have a 50% chance of +1 physical per term... so climb in point total, not drop - no natural death in their future. So, for MT, we can easily rule out Anagathics for the Emperors. They aren't living long enough...)

 

[GypsyComet]

That's one trillion Vilani there or there about.

Modern Ilelish is supposedly about 60% Suerrat, and Ilelish is heavily populated. While probably not as dense at the time of the Ziru Sirka, it is also the case that 3/4 of a trillion Suerrat didn't all wait for the Tax Revolt to migrate. Their cultural borders have not changed much since the wars against the Vilani 6000 years ago and they remained a subjugated race for a couple thousand years, but by weight a significant percentage of the ZS was Suerrat.

Marc's modern vision of the Imperium suggests that only a bare majority of the Imperium is some form of Humaniti, and that a long list of alien races make up the rest at no more than a couple percent each. Many of those well-populated habitable worlds long presented as default Human are actually alien homeworlds.

The Ziru Sirka was an empire FOR the Vilani, and run BY them, but only barely was it an empire OF Vilani. With other branches of Humaniti counted separately, the Vilani would have been a minority of the population while remaining a majority of the starfarers.

A genetic swing brought on by the Solomani looks more reasonable with that in mind.

 

[kilemall]

I'd go more by the UWPs then anything else, which tells me the average Imperial citizen lives on a high tech world with a law level that has most lightly or totally disarmed, a 50% chance of being harassed by law enforcement every day and an equal chance to bribe their way out of trouble.

Corrupt, overbearing government planets with limited resources, fabulous technology, been high tech for 1000s of years, and likely its who you know or can afford to get ahead.

Effectively, a future interstellar urbanite.

Contrast that with the frontier planets, more freedom and more opportunity to get ahead or get killed.

 

[robject]

We have been playing it wrong for years - or alternatively there need to be a retcon to make Vilani aging similar to Terran - and all human minor races - aging rates.

I'm with Mike here, in general. Making Vilani long-lived was DGP's mistake.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Mike,

Unfortunately the folks at DGP got their setting details wrong. Surprise.

The T5SS data doesn't match up with many of the Traveller editions, versions, or canon data.

Oh well.

Overall, DGP did a better job of back research than most Trav versions. I hope to see the wiki become a very good research resource, making it easier for all authors, referees, and fans to do research and pull data.

The vast majority of humans in the galaxy by the time the Terrans encountered the Imperium were Vilani.

Makes sense. One world (...and a handful of colonies) versus hundreds or thousands.

10,000 systems (actually more, I want to keep the maths simple) with an average population of a few hundred million per system by the time it is averaged out (the Vilani settled worlds that were hospitable and populations tended to be in the hundreds of millions).

Again, the T5SS data doesn't match up with many of the Traveller editions, versions, or canon data.

The data has also been retconned several times.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/T5_Second_Survey

That's one trillion Vilani there or there about. Terran population was 12 billion during the Interstellar Wars era. How much of the Terran population left to interbreed with the Vilani? Let's assume ten percent, or fifty percent. One to six billion versus 1000 times that number, DGP got their numbers wrong. The majority of Imperial worlds would be lucky so get a cruiser complement of Terrans.

Maybe all of the Terrans were conquistador Spanish? Or horny frat boys?

DGP made up their numbers without actually considering the setting or the maths.

Maybe...

The vast majority of the Third Imperium will be almost entirely purely Vilani genetically. That is unless their Terran overlords practiced a particular medieval right...

Sexual mores make a difference. I picture the Terrans as being vastly more outgoing in the sex department.

How does one say Prima Noctis in Vlandensi? Or High Vilani? Rob?

Positive vibes to all!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[GypsyComet]

Overall, DGP did a better job of back research than most Trav versions.

And yet they saw fit to alter the Imperium in a very important way. The CT Library Data Imperium, while seen through the lens of the Marches to some extent, was nonetheless described as a TL11-13 place with a relative few bright spots of TL14 and 15. DGP, through the ship design foibles and extensive UWP manipulation, showed us an Imperium that was only barely functional before TL14, and was pushing into TL16 on a broad front with only a decade of timeline to justify the difference.

 

[mike wightman]

I disagree with you. The CT OTU had a TL15 Third Imperium. On the frontier worlds have a range of TLs, but as you head closer to the core sectors, the TL should be more homogenised, the planets themselves should be more closely tied to the Imperium itself.

The very first glimpse of the setting proper was the fluff in A1, followed by the TAS news articles in JTAS 2+.

Those two sources produce a very different Imperium to the one that is sanitised in the Library Data supplements (always remember they are written from the Imperial point of view).

The Imperium is solidly TL15 by 1000, merchant ships are built to TL15, A type starports can build and maintain any letter drive starship, warships have been TL15 for so long that the first generation of TL15 warships are now being replaced by better builds.

 

[GypsyComet]

Do keep in mind that DGP generated and presented most of the inner Imperium UWPs we ever saw, even during CT.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Proto-Traveller will have different answers than the full breadth of CT.

Finally, a definition: When I say "The Imperium" I'm talking about the entire entity, member worlds, trillions of citizens, and all. If I want to refer to just the Navy (which is at the forefront of technology), I'll say so.


Fighting Ships and AHL paint a picture of a TL14 Imperial Navy during the Solomani Rim War in the 990s, with the oldest TL15 designs appearing about 30 years later in the core fleets. The Fer de Lance specifically frames the TL15 prototype era as a spec that the Navy wanted after the 3rd Frontier War but had to develop into TL15 to actually build.

The Scouts would not be building couriers at TL9 if the higher TL ports were actually that common. Even TL12 is over a thousand years old *this time*, but for some reason the Scouts felt the need to use technology another order of magnitude older.

Traders and Gunboats shows no indication of mercantile vessels at TL15. Only the big trade route carriers and long stepping explorers need to be even TL13.

Where are these TL15 merchants? MegaTraveller had to bump all of the standard designs to TL15 because that was the only TL their Striker kludge of a ship building system allowed the standard designs to work at (until the late MT fuel fix).

 

[creativehum]

You all will note that I stay away from conversations about the Imperium proper.... but Mike I have to ask... why are you saying that thrnImperium is solidly TL across the board?

The TL tables in The Traveller Book* offer a range of Imperial TL from 11-15, with
11-12 being average Imperial TL
13-14 being above average Imperial TL
15 being maximum TL

If everyone is solidly maximum, then where does "average" fit into this?

Did later publications state everyone was 15? Are you deducting this from clues?

I have no dog in this discussion of course. Simply curious. I'm startled by the notion and would like to hear more.

* Of course neither edition of Book 3 mentions anything about average of maximum anything about "averwge" or "maximum" part from the 1981 edition saying 16+ is "beyond common levels."

 

[jcrocker]

Like a lot of things, the picture presented changed as different hands took their turn in describing the setting.

I think it was in the first article about the Gazelle in Journal or Challenge, don't recall what it was called at that point, that specifically stated the Gazelle class was built to TL14 so it would have a larger base of worlds to draw spares from. Which makes sense.

By late MT or TNE the entire Imperial Fleet was stated to be built at TL15 whenever possible so that the Imperium would get the maximum return from its technical advantage with respect to its neighbours. Which makes sense.

Remember, the early versions had a 5000 ton ship as the biggest category. That got rewritten not long after. There are a lot of moved goalposts in Traveller.

 

[mike wightman]

Across the board TL15 isn't quite what I mean.

Consider the TL7.8 Earth we have today, can every country manufacture to TL7.8? No. There are only a handful, for example, who can build nuclear reactors for a start, but does the knowledge exist fore every country to do so if they throw the resources at the problem? Yes. Similarly for space programmes, microchip fabrication etc.

Do lower TL countries here on Earth buy stuff and use the tech from those more advanced countries? Yes. Many African countries now have wi-fi and mobile phone networks - infrastructure 'provided' by the Chinese - without ever having landline telecommunications, do their populations struggle to understand the interwebs and smart phone/tablet technology? Not one bit.

What I mean is that every Imperial planet has access to TL 15 scientific, engineering, and technical know how. Their local manufacturing base may be quite a bit lower but everyone is still taught in school the basic understanding of a TL15 society. If you want TL15 goodies all you have to pay is 1000Cr per ton per jump to get them to you.

I also believe that within the setting the LBB2 rule that any A class starport can build and maintain any letter drive ship regardless of local world technology. Similarly all IN bases have to be equipped to TL15 in order to repair and maintain the fleets.

There are no TL15 worlds in the Aramis sector, and yet TL15 merchantmen ply the trade lanes - these merchantmen are made up of megacorporation ships, a sector wide shipping line, and the new upstart on the block, yet they all operate TL15 merchants. Oh, and the museum on Aramis has an exhibit detailing a TL15 meson gun - the world is only TL11.

A world's TL makes sense in isolation but not when part of a trading empire that has been well established for over a thousand years and began at TL12.

As you head to the core sectors away from the frontier the number of higher TL worlds should increase, and direct Imperial rule should also increase.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, the point about Cr1000 per ton per jump creates a point- each subsector is it's own TL story.

A TL11 Industrial planet probably dominates 'default export tech' more then any other factor.

A TL14 planet with high starport/low pop may JUST build starships for export, and other items with that tech may be created more for internal consumption.

A matched pair of high pop/low tech and low pop/high tech may have some interesting mixes of tech going on, or an abusive raw material colonial approach- in either direction.

Deeper commercial and political definitions within the subsector can lead to a picture that is far more complex and story generating then just homeworld focus.

 

[GypsyComet]

each subsector is it's own TL story.

...

Deeper commercial and political definitions within the subsector can lead to a picture that is far more complex and story generating then just homeworld focus.

Subsectors, singly or in pairs, make good subjects for that sort of analysis. Political, economic, and cultural factors interact most consistently at that level, and the structure imposed from above via the nobility tends to reinforce the boundaries, even for those nobles. Unless one is in the habit of attending the Moot, even Imperial politics remains local.

The advantage of using the Imperium as a larger picture is that sometimes, even across eighty worlds spread through two subsectors, you may still be missing some element you or a player want as a story or background component. Five Sisters and District 268 are a great pairing for all sorts of trouble, but sometimes you just need to visit Glisten...

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't have the time right now. Not sure if I will ever have the time. But, i would love to create a subsector from scratch. I'd pamper it and pepper it with all sorts of details.

I've even got an idea--something I stole from the pilgrims. A cult wants self rule, and they've become powerful enough to hire some external Imperial scouting missions.

I'd move them out two sectors or so from the Imperial frontier--not sure which frontier--and I'd have them discover a world. That'd be the first world that I generate from scratch, placing it randomly in the subsector.

From there, I'd create the rest of the subsector, making all of that history of around 200 or more years ago.

I'd let the dice tell me what to create. I might create some pocket Empires.

I'd just develop the hell out of that subsector.

The Imperium would exist, but it would be some distance from this new area of space.

I'd create new races, both human and alien.

And, I'd have a blast just making this amazing backyard in which to play--complete solar systems created using all the tools that CT gives us.

 

[mike wightman]

You have never done your own setting or subsector?

CT was designed for you to make stuff up for yourself rather than stick to the OTU as it became.

In my humble opinion you have never truly appreciated CT until you start with a blank sheet of hex paper and make up your own setting - without the Third Imperium or the restrictions the OTU brings with it.

My longest running Traveller campaign is best described as planet of the week and the only Imperium is a long gone memory who's ruins occasionally provide for a scenario or two.

Take my advise, do it.