Imperial Citizens

[BlackBat242]

The imperial sentient rights I am aware of in canon are:

• freedom from enslavement
• freedom of access to travel
• trial by jury when off homeworld.
• Ability to appeal local courts to the Noble and/or the subsector moot.

Note that, by not restricting the status, spies are subject to charges of treason, rather than espionage. So that Zhodani or Mandannin spy isn't tried as if a foreign agent -- they're tried as a traitor to the Imperium. It's a pretty slick pro-immigrant status, and it eliminates separated processes for the 6 clades - Tourists, Diplomats, Guest Workers, unnaturalized immigrants, naturalized immigrants, and locals
It also implies a lack of ambassadorial access to diplomatic immunity.

That's an interesting feature...

 

[Spinward Flow]

And there are many canonical examples of each and every one being broken - Kinunir, Research Station Gamma, The Traveller Adventure.

There are (generically speaking) rights against unlawful death (in the spirit of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness ideals) ... yet those rights get violated by acts of murder.

The phrase "rules are made to be broken" kinda applies here.
The worlds of the 3I are not "perfect utopias" where NO ONE ever has their rights violated.

The rights of sentient citizens get violated (usually by "Bad Guys").
The follow up question then becomes ... what are the consequences for doing that?

 

[McPerth]

The follow up question then becomes ... what are the consequences for doing that?

Players intervention (where Imperium does not reach, or prefers not to intervene)?

Of course, rights get violated. Saldy this has happened all history... But OTOH that's the basis of adventure, either by the players be the violators or fighting them.

Normal, good done things rarely open newspapers. Wrongs do. Similarly, utopias where all the rights are kept rarely give an interesting playing environment.

 

[Vargas]

I take the statement to be:

• A shoot from the hip "proclamation" from the Emperor and not a true policy statement.
• PR to curry the favor of non-humans, enticing them to view the young Imperium favorably.
• An overly concise distillation of a complex topic which is understood by at least some of the audience as requiring a lot of debate and explanation. (I can think of at least two hot button topics in American politics that qualify).

I also think the statement was written without any policy analysis by Marc or whomever at GDW.

 

[McPerth]

In 3I, Emperors' proclamations are laws.

There's no legislative body, but the Emperor dictates them.

 

[mike wightman]

I always look at the credits page of T4 sources before deciding how much faith to put in to their particular brand of canon.
T4 has some "interesting" take on things.

 

[Vargas]

I always look at the credits page of T4 sources

What do you look for?

 

[Vargas]

In 3I, Emperors' proclamations are laws.

Probably an unfortunate choice of word on my part.

 

[Condottiere]

Policy.

Aspirations.

 

[Quint]

I kind of always saw it as part of the rationale that suggested that people on various planets couldn't "opt out" of Imperial citizenship to avoid Imperial legal entanglements, as well as a method to provide reasoning for Imperial intervention if a government tried to do the same thing.

D.

 

[aramis]

And there are many canonical examples of each and every one being broken - Kinunir, Research Station Gamma, The Traveller Adventure.

Which is what lead me, prior to T4, to assume Citizenship was not universal.

 

[McPerth]

And there are many canonical examples of each and every one being broken - Kinunir, Research Station Gamma, The Traveller Adventure.

As there are in real life (I won't quote any to avoid this thread being sent to the pit). Specifically about Kinunir, IIRC the module was prior to 3I canon. 3I does not imprison Imperial Senators (mostly because it has no senate)

Which is what lead me, prior to T4, to assume Citizenship was not universal.

My assumption is they are theoretically universal, just most people either don't care, don't even know or cannot reach Imperial Authorities to claim them.

That's why I believe in practical terms, it only applies to Imperial Services (active or retirees) and Nobility and people living in Imperial territory (mostly spacefarers, aka Travellers).

 

[Condottiere]

Generally speaking, outside of ultra patriots, citizenship isn't really an issue until you're confronted with the need to obtain passports and/or travelling visas.

Besides the ultra paranoids who object to any form of official identification.

 

[mike wightman]

As there are in real life (I won't quote any to avoid this thread being sent to the pit). Specifically about Kinunir, IIRC the module was prior to 3I canon. 3I does not imprison Imperial Senators (mostly because it has no senate)

YDNRC - Kinunir is very much set in the Third Imperium, there would be a few minor changes due to the fleshing out of said Imperium in later products.
T4 on the other hand is mostly written by third party authors - fanon made canon by nature of it being published under the MM's Traveller banner by Imperium Games, but if you take a look at the credits MWM is involved in very few of them.

 

[McPerth]

YDNRC - Kinunir is very much set in the Third Imperium, there would be a few minor changes due to the fleshing out of said Imperium in later products

Well, traveller products were very hard (when possible) to obtain in Barcelona by 1979, when Kinunir was released, but I think the description and fleshig of the 3I as such was posterior.

The first Traveller products (e.g. the introduction og CT:HG) told about the Imperium as a remote centralized government, but did not describe it...

Curiousy, on the same introduction of HG, even in the same paragraph, it says the Imperium allows a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, and in the following one about the subsector and planetary Navies, so casting doubt on this same Imperium to be so centralized.

I believe you already played Traveller by then, and probably were able to have access to CT material as it was published, so you probably have better knowledge about the chronology of the publications, but if the Kinunir was so much set in 3I as we have known latter, how could an Imperial Senator exist if 3I has no Imperial Senate (and the Moot is quite a different corps than a Senate, as has no legislative power).

 

[whulorigan]

Curiousy, on the same introduction of HG, even in the same paragraph, it says the Imperium allows a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, and in the following one about the subsector and planetary Navies, so casting doubt on this same Imperium to be so centralized.

I believe you already played Traveller by then, and probably were able to have access to CT material as it was published, so you probably have better knowledge about the chronology of the publications, but if the Kinunir was so much set in 3I as we have known latter, how could an Imperial Senator exist if 3I has no Imperial Senate (and the Moot is quite a different corps than a Senate, as has no legislative power).

It might be referring to the local moot of the nobles of the Spinward Marches, which Loren in GURPS Traveller later named the "Senate of the Spinward Marches" (probably to harmonize the above reference with later material).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Any world with a Government: 4 (Representative Democracy) can potentially have a (world governing) Senate.
If that world is Imperial aligned, then government officials from that world can legitimately be called Imperial Senators ... even though there is no IMPERIAL Senate (per se).

Curiousy, on the same introduction of HG, even in the same paragraph, it says the Imperium allows a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, and in the following one about the subsector and planetary Navies, so casting doubt on this same Imperium to be so centralized.

That's simply an example of federalism/feudalism at work there.
Due to the effects of jump lag, any "centralized" decision making body that is "far away" is going to be slower to respond to current events happening "here" out on the fringes/frontier. The centralized command "exists" but it isn't necessarily close enough to make command decisions in a coordinated fashion to events in real/time locally. This creates a "command vacuum" that needs to be filled at the more local level.

If you think of the organization forces in terms roughly analogous to how things get built up in the United States, you get something that roughly approximates this in terms of layers:

1. National Military = Imperial Navy
2. State Guard = Subseector Navy
3. Militia = Planetary Navy

 

[Vargas]

- fanon made canon

Which MT excelled at.

 

[McPerth]

It might be referring to the local moot of the nobles of the Spinward Marches, which Loren in GURPS Traveller later named the "Senate of the Spinward Marches" (probably to harmonize the above reference with later material).

That would be as calling a member of a state's (e.g. California) senate a US Senator, by keeping with Spinward Scout analogy (which I agree with).

Would you call him so?

If you think of the organization forces in terms roughly analogous to how things get built up in the United States, you get something that roughly approximates this in terms of layers:

1. National Military = Imperial Navy
2. State Guard = Subseector Navy
3. Militia = Planetary Navy

 

[Spinward Flow]

That would be as calling a member of a state's (e.g. California) senate a US Senator

The (more) complete answer would be "California State Senator" with the "in the United States" left unsaid (because you don't need to add that last layer for people to understand the hierarchy at play).

Imperial World + World Senator can be shortened to "Imperial Senator" if you like, although "Imperial World Senator" would be more accurate and precise.