Imperial Citizens

[aramis]

That would be as calling a member of a state's (e.g. California) senate a US Senator, by keeping with Spinward Scout analogy (which I agree with).

Would you call him so?

No. In no uncertain terms, the title "US Senator" only applies to those elected to represent their state in the Federal Senate. The state's own senates are "State Senators".

This is unlike the Moots - where every resident landed nobleperson has a vote, and no one under soc 11 even gets to voice an opinion, let alone vote. Your moot member from Regina on the subsector moot is, at least in theory, also your moot member for the Imperial moot... In practice, that's only going to happen in the Core Subsector Moot - because for anyone much past, they're only going to be at one or the other.

 

[Condottiere]

I suspect they have a delegation from the subsector at the Capitol, and rotate their local nobility through it.

 

[mike wightman]

I never understood why the Moot ever came into being.

According to interviews with the GDW staff and people at FASA the Third Imperium was meant to have Roman Imperium vibe - hence senator.

 

[Condottiere]

Roman Emperors didn't trust patricians, and tended to appoint Equites to important governorships, and presumably military posts.

So you won't have sector dukes, but Grand Moffs.

 

[McPerth]

No. In no uncertain terms, the title "US Senator" only applies to those elected to represent their state in the Federal Senate. The state's own senates are "State Senators".

I guessed this.

So, when in Kinunir they talk about an Imperial Senator, I guess they don't mean a subsector one...

 

[mike wightman]

Where does it say he is an Imperial senator?

T. A reward has been offered by the subsector government for the location of
a senator who has been missing since 1102.

A young lady (age 22,477AAA) approaches the band hoping that they may help
in the solution of her problem. Her father is both a noble and a senator, but has
been missing since 1102

could be a senator from within the subsector, either a world with senators or the subsector itself has a senate.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Her father is both a noble and a senator

could be a senator from within the subsector, either a world with senators or the subsector itself has a senate.

Simplest interpretation is a Government: 4 world where her father has achieve Social: B (and is therefore of "noble" status).

If you want to take this from a chargen perspective, what happens to people on the Noble career track? (LBB S4)
Well, first you have to succeed at a Position roll.
Success then gets you "assigned and posted" as in Imperial Noble to an appropriate world somewhere, representing the Emperor.
Then you roll for Promotion, which if successful raises your Social Standing, but the odds of success are low.
In other words, most Knights (Soc: B) remain Knights. Promotion to a higher Social rank is RARE (and will usually mean being reassigned to a new world into the bargain!).

Well, at some point, even Nobles will either fail their re-enlist roll or otherwise choose to retire and "muster out" of service in the Noble career chargen path. At that point, they retain their Social Status as nobles, but they are no longer "in post" as a representative of the Emperor to a world.

So what do "retired nobles" DO with themselves after they retire (if they don't become PC Travellers)?
Well ...

If they are well liked and popular with the citizens of a world, it's entirely possible for a (now former) Imperial Noble to make the jump into (local) world politics and win an election to a world's planetary senate (Government: 4 Representative Democracy) to continue a lifetime of public service, but now with a new constituency (emperor vs popular vote).

That is the SIMPLEST way to "square the circle" involved in that rumor from LBB A1 The Kinunir.



Of course, the OTHER simplest way to "square the circle" involved in that rumor is to realize that the young lady involved is LYING to the PCs and the whole story/rumor that she's telling them is completely made up!

Remember, not every rumor has to be 100% true ... ... some of them could be false ...

 

[McPerth]

Where does it say he is an Imperial senator?

My version is the Spanish one (one of the few books taht were translated), and it's long since I last read it (I'd have to digg deep to find it now), so it seems either it was misstranslated or my memory is faulty about this detail...

I remember we assumed than the Imeprum was more Star Wars like (it was then 1979), while as the 3I was developed it became more benevolent, despite its flaws.

 

[aramis]

The simplest solution for "senator" is to ignore the references as an abandoned idea from the early development of the setting.

As for the Moot...
Democracy won't work across the timescale of the Imperium; the scale of the Imperium seems to have grown between the first 4 Adventures and the later ones. An imperium where the moot can all get there within the quarter? (Keeping in mind that means, even at speed, roughly 10jX round trip... or 5jX from the capital.... that's reasonable duration for an interregnum regency.. much longer, and local cohesion begins to trump imperial cohesion.

The model of the moot seems to me to be very parallel to the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals...
Most especially the constitutional role limited to the determination of succession.
But also, the various commissions/committies/agencies drawn from them both are subsets that do not meet often, but meet to approve the work of functionaries that actually do most of the work...
and that all members are also local leadership of theoretically autonomous subgroups of their system..

 

[McPerth]

The model of the moot seems to me to be very parallel to the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals...
Most especially the constitutional role limited to the determination of succession.
But also, the various commissions/committies/agencies drawn from them both are subsets that do not meet often, but meet to approve the work of functionaries that actually do most of the work...
and that all members are also local leadership of theoretically autonomous subgroups of their system...

And also because the ruloer may elevate more members to it, so helping decide the trend of the succession (though in teh 3I, being hereditary, this is less important)...

IIRC the Catolic Church Colege of Cardinals was given as en example of Self-perpetuating oligarchy in some Traveller publications for this reason.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Senator implies time spent extensive politicking at the capitol.

2. Nobility implies hereditary ruler.

3. Term limits ensures (somewhat) interruption of centralization of (political) power.

4. Lifetime appointments is a compromise between interruption and competency.

5. Clans and institutions can mutate into self perpetuation, unfit for purpose.

 

[mike wightman]

1. Planetary governments have senates and senators - the A1 senator is never referred to as an Imperial Senator.
2. Many Roman senators were also of the noble class.
3. Speed of travel and speed of communication limit the centralization of political power.
4. A lot depends on the training, competency, and level of corruption
5. Including our so called western democracies

 

[kilemall]

The simplest solution for "senator" is to ignore the references as an abandoned idea from the early development of the setting.

As for the Moot...
Democracy won't work across the timescale of the Imperium; the scale of the Imperium seems to have grown between the first 4 Adventures and the later ones. An imperium where the moot can all get there within the quarter? (Keeping in mind that means, even at speed, roughly 10jX round trip... or 5jX from the capital.... that's reasonable duration for an interregnum regency.. much longer, and local cohesion begins to trump imperial cohesion.

The model of the moot seems to me to be very parallel to the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals...
Most especially the constitutional role limited to the determination of succession.
But also, the various commissions/committies/agencies drawn from them both are subsets that do not meet often, but meet to approve the work of functionaries that actually do most of the work...
and that all members are also local leadership of theoretically autonomous subgroups of their system..

Wouldn’t it be more like the Holy Roman Empire electors?

Prince-elector - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Condottiere]

Those guys have too much power, and you usually have to bribe them.

As I recall the Roman Senate, before the Emperors took over, Senators couldn't engage in commerce, and needed a minimum wealth qualification, as well as certification by the Censors.

Besides being selected from Patrician caste.

 

[McPerth]

IIRC the senatorials were a class on their own, formed by the post powerful Patrician families and those who had been on a high magistrature office (this way, some even non patricians could reach teh senate).

The office of senator was for life and not elected.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, you start as a military cadet, and work your way up the chain of (magisterial) offices, the apex being that of annual Consul, one of which needs to be non patrician, after some lobbying.

As I recall, you need to be thirty five, can't hold the office for another decade, and become a Senator after your term expires.

Censor seems to be higher; and then you have dictator.

 

[Ulsyus]

1. Senator implies time spent extensive politicking at the capitol.

2. Nobility implies hereditary ruler.

1. Why does Senator imply that? If it's a position that involves lengthy periods between elections (say 8-16 years) then the politicking only needs to be undertaken at critical moments. Our current terrestrial models may not apply

2. What does this relate to??

In theory, you start as a military cadet, and work your way up the chain of (magisterial) offices, the apex being that of annual Consul, one of which needs to be non patrician, after some lobbying.

As I recall, you need to be thirty five, can't hold the office for another decade, and become a Senator after your term expires.

Censor seems to be higher; and then you have dictator.

Those conditions sound about right, but the Senatorial class were still divided into the Plebs and the Patricians

 

[Condottiere]

1. A senate gets things done by negotiation, with each other, and possibly external lobbyists; doesn't work without constant and immediate contact.

2. Going by historical models, distance and time lag tends to give local autonomy, so the person in charge of that acts in an executive manner, and tries to designate their own successor.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As for the Moot...
Democracy won't work across the timescale of the Imperium; the scale of the Imperium seems to have grown between the first 4 Adventures and the later ones.

It seems remarkably stable:

CT A1 1979, The Kinunir:
Location: This adventure takes place in the Regina subsector, located on the far spinward edge of the Imperium, about 44 weeks by express boat from the ruling core, and more than three years out by ordinary transport. The lmperium itself is a far-flung empire of 281 subsectors and over 11000 worlds.

Which is still the current canon?


The tone may have changed:

CT S3 1979, The Spinward Marches:
Imperium: The lmperium is a strong interstellar government encompassing 281 subsectors and approximately 11,000 worlds. Approximately 1100 years old, it is the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest. Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from its neighboring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had.

CT A1 1979, The Kinunir:
Her father is both a noble and a senator, but has been missing since 1102. She has only recently learned that he is held prisoner by the lmperium itself in an orbital prison hulk at Pixie (0303). The subsector government has suppressed this information; but it has treacherously offered a reward of Cr1,000,000 for the senators location in order to conceal its involvement in his disappearance.

CT A4 1980, Leviathan:
Though the Imperial core may be decaying and to some extent introspective, in the Spinward Marches at least, the trading spirit still burns fiercely.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The character generation system suggests that there are appointed persons to offices, not hereditary as such (though the history clearly contradicts this)

A purely hereditary system would see characters who were heirs leap from 10 to (say) 14 on the death of the incumbent with no intervening step (unless they have gained an honorary title).

The early canon had Barons that held worlds, Counts that held groups of worlds and Dukes who held bigger groups of worlds. The other ranks were ill defined and sector duke (as a formal role) didn't appear until later. Knights weren't the lowest form of landed gentry until later (TNE?,T4?) and (IIRC) it was Barons+ that were Moot members when the Moot first appeared.

T5 explicitly ties imperial ranks to Moot Votes and allows proxy-for-cash relationships.

The current (T5) system divorces the County or Duchy role from the majority of holders of Count and Duke ranks making those that hold those roles a specialist sub-class of each rank.

The advantage of the confusion is that the maker of a game has to make their own decision on what Noble Ranks and Offices mean. The disadvantage is that SOC11 has become (in T5) much more powerful than it was in the earliest versions. (and the number of such powerful characters rolled has thus changed by a factor of 3)

Typically a character of SOC 12 has millions of subjects making them the equivalent of many current heads of state. How many of those go adventuring?