imperial culture

[SpaceBadger]

(continuing the theme of planetary culture driving imperial ...)

junidy

if the zhodani consulate is a happy police state, junidy is a happy concentration camp.
...
this is not to say that non-conforming judys are punished. they simply are guided. all judys wear monitoring and interaction equipment at all times - test subjects are being installed with the new cybergear - which reports on their location, physical status, mental state, and environmental interactions with other judys and the infrastructure of the planet, and guides them in making proper choices in pursuit of the chief programmer's plans. if a judy is not operating within parameters, other judy's simply will be directed not to interact with the rogue judy. doors will not open for him. the infrastructre of the entire planet will not respond to him. nothing will work for him until he returns to his proper parameters, designed for his benefit and the benefit of all subjects of junidy. conformity with the chief programmer's plan simpy is the right thing to do. it is the only thing to do. there is no other way.

This sounds a lot like the homeworld that my PC came from in the solo game that you ran for me 5 years ago, but I don't think he was from Junidy, was he? Although maybe that was the origin for ideas that you later used for Junidy?


EDIT: Oh, I see that he started out on Louzy. But it seemed more like what you later (in 2015) presented for Junidy.


*

 

[whulorigan]

Hadn't thought of this before, but maybe that's why the writers of MT chose to make Dulinor be from Ilelish? Is it ever stated whether he is Suerrat or "normal" Solomani/Vilani type of human?

He is definitely not Suerrat (at least by all depictions in artwork).

 

[Grav_Moped]

So how does this apply?

Agent of the Imperium can give you a clue. In one chapter, Bland brings up the The Eighteen plays Some things might be inferred about Imperial culture.

Bland was not born Vland, but on Sylea yet knows and carries a few traditions. One plays invovlves a"The Vilani Transitional Era, as Shugina struggles against the last functional Ancient battle machines" An event 20,000+ years prior. If not in fact, as a myth in oral tradition or written form. As a play/lesson on Disappointment. We barely give a darn or know about Gilgamesh and Enkidu after 10,000 years.

Leaving your finger behind. The family buries a momento of you, not the whole body?

We still commonly use direct references to mythologized and dramatized Greek history 3000 years later ("Achilles' Heel", "Trojan Horse", "Oedipus Complex", "Cassandra", and so forth). Common Biblical allusions go even farther back.

But I see your point, in that Vilani civilization had to have been largely continuous for millenia or that incident would have been lost in one or another linguistic or cultural shift somewhere along the way. We only know of the Gilgamesh saga through archaeology, not as a part of a continuous cultural legacy. Your observation about Vilani history/mythology strongly implies that the historical event in the traditional play was never lost in that manner.

 

[flykiller]

But it seemed more like what you later (in 2015) presented for Junidy.

well, I see what I wrote for junidy and how I started at louzy as being a high-probability outcome of human society and technology - the demono- and psycho- and socio-paths seek absolute control, and so migrate to positions of control, and utilize technology to achieve total control - "can neither buy nor sell". seeing, since writing that, china's burgeoning social-credit system and the larval stage of a similar net here in the states confirms to me the accuracy of such a view.

 

[kilemall]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]I'm not sure where the Imperium would have much of a culture. Locally, probably, but I can't see it Imperium wide.[/FONT]

Hmm, my take is it is the exact opposite- you don't have an Imperium unless you foster a common identity somewhere along the line.

Too many examples in which empires exceed their 'cultural range limit', the local authorities go native or rogue to grab their own power, and it breaks apart.
The Mongol Empire comes to mind.
The Roman Empire got in trouble in part because it went a little too native on the edges without an acculturation process.

Now the Imperum is too darn big and too much diversity allowed per planet for most to be acculturated per se, that's why I think it would all be in the nobles and the services. Keep those people into power structure/the idea of social standing mattering/mores and behaviors that mark higher social standing people/locked out of meaningful decisionmaking/resources UNLESS one conforms to Imperial Culture, etc. etc.
Something like 'being British' and 'that's just not done' and 'stiff upper lip' and British identity for that Empire, only the Imperial style.

Ultimately, that IS the Imperium. Everything else is just tools.

 

[flykiller]

so social standing is an objective measure of adherence to imperial culture.

 

[Condottiere]

More likely co-option of local influencer.

 

[flykiller]

so social standing is an objective measure of adherence to imperial culture.

More likely co-option of local influencer.

to the extent that the difference is distinguishable ....

 

[Condottiere]

They have capital, social or otherwise.

On the other hand, climbing the ladder in the Solomani Party probably is easier.

 

[Fovean]

Seems to me that Imperial Culture is a local social construct. It gains traction on worlds where it seems appealing, not so much on others. Way down in District 268 the rivalry between Collace and Trexalon is a perfect example - in MgT 1e anyway, never dug that deep in other editions. Point being, one world is actively embracing Imperial influence (and thus their culture is shifting to Imperial ‘norms’ and they hope to gain advantage) while the other is resisting Imperial influence as all they see is jack-booted oppressors.

IMTU I lean towards Kilemall’s concept - it’s the highest Nobles and the Services that define Imperial identity. What else can it be? Those are the only real interstellar constructs in the universe. I suppose TAS as well but it’s always seemed anemic to me.

But I do include certain Megacorps; if you remember the original Blade Runner, Tyrell’s monologue before his death is pretty much how I envision every Megacorp CEO defining their empire. It’s just business, but business is what keeps ALL the wheels turning. Especially the wheels you louts will never get to see (cue PCs to go see those wheels).

For the record, as prevalent and pervasive as they are, I’ve never considered the OTU Megacorps as anything other than big-ass companies, despite however many shares the Emperor may hold. One big mistake and that company could crash and burn like a belter’s last probe. Don’t worry, there’s another company just waiting to serve that market. But when you talk about Imperial Culture, one big mistake removes individuals, like Admirals or Barons. The structure remains intact, the irritant is removed and the message is delivered. Whether the message is received is another story.

 

[Tiikeri]

Didnt the vilani inflict an aggressive assimilation campaign on all worlds during the ziru sirka era (dont have my books right now)?

 

[mike wightman]

The consolidation wars era preceded the Ziru Sirka.

In 476 AD, the lgsiirdi declared the Ziru
Sirka. The Vilani calendar dates from this
point.

 

[kilemall]

Didnt the vilani inflict an aggressive assimilation campaign on all worlds during the ziru sirka era (dont have my books right now)?

Which is why you had a culture that was rigid and stagnant, they approached the problem with overkill, everything has to be the same everywhere all the time no matter what. And then it's hard but brittle, not easily flexible or adaptable to changing circumstances or strong personalities. Or wacky resource munching Terrans.

A lesson the Zhos may rediscover if they get big enough, they are going down the same road, or maybe they recognize the issue and intentionally do not get much bigger then controllable population needs dictates.


I'm imagining that Cleon commissioned a study on the 1I and 2I very early on to see what was done wrong to the leading Social Architects (think Naval Architects, only psychohistory/culture/government designers).

Their answer was the 3I Imperial central core/IN realm enforcement and planetary rule 'freedoms', long as they do not infringe on trade or interstellar power- and Imperial nobility/Social Standing to coopt joining ruling classes into interstellar power and rewards.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Which is why you had a culture that was rigid and stagnant, they approached the problem with overkill, everything has to be the same everywhere all the time no matter what. And then it's hard but brittle, not easily flexible or adaptable to changing circumstances or strong personalities.

No, more likely caused by the training or forced evolution of over 200,000+ years on Vland before they went out into space. The Ancients' war-machines and food issues I think are critically tied into this.

Regardless of the role the Vilani played in the Ancient's time (experiments, pets, ignored, lesser assistants), they still had to eat. We do not know if they had happy Fire Pits like the Darrians, food pills, or other transplanted species from Terra, were already taught shuligi food processing or whatnot. We do know that there was the Ancient's War and its aftermath set constraints on development on Vland for 200,000+ years.

At the end you have humans who cannot easily live on "their own planet". Any animals that might have come with them from Terra are gone and forgotten. You have to retain a bit more specialized knowledge than humans on Terra or the entire tribe dies from food poisoning immediately after one improperly prepared meal or slow starvation depending what happens if you eat Vland wildlife raw. You have to be careful and follow rules more or the machines will zap and your tribe you for entering their zones of control or might zap you all for reasons you have no understanding of.

Did I mention for over 200,000 years? That is gonna leave a mark.

 

[mike wightman]

The Vilani suffered a major cultural shift in the run up to the consolidation war era, and the later stagnation of the Ziru Sirka.

The Vilani explored and founded colonies using sublight engines. Their discovery of jump drive had them spread far and wide, exploring, trading, colonising.

For thousands of years the Vilani peacefully constructed a loose trading hegemony.

Then it changed.

The development of jump 2 has a very interesting backstory...

 

[flykiller]

For thousands of years the Vilani peacefully constructed a loose trading hegemony

how much of the third imperium is actually vilani?

 

[GypsyComet]

how much of the third imperium is actually vilani?

They are widely spread, as are the Terrans, but not in every nook and cranny. A number of the Minor Races had pocket empires, either from the early sale of a Vilani jump drive, or when the lid came off during the Long Night. The Long Night served to blend the Vilani and Terran together in most of the former Ziru Sirka, to the point where only a region around Vland is purely Vilani. The rest is a polka dot pattern of Minor cultural/genetic regions on a background of Vilani-Terran mix, the so-called "Imperial Human" baseline (which extends into Julian space, ironically).

The Vilani had significant influence on the early Third Imperium, as well, though they only returned to being the dominant culture after the Civil War period.

 

[mike wightman]

The Ziru Sirka was larger than the Third Imperium, let us look at the demographics at the time the Vilani and Terrans encountered each other.

There were tens of trillions of Vilani, scattered across ten thousand worlds (more but the maths is easier) when the Ziru Sirka encountered the Terrans.

The Terran population at the time was 12 billion. The vast majority of ZS worlds were only ever 'occupied' by a handful of Terrans.

Conclusion is thus the vast majority of the Third Imperium is genetically Vilani, a small percentage will be Vilani/Terran, and there will be very few genetically Terran at the start of the Third Imperium - with the exception of the Terran confederation region of space.

Minor human race cultural regions will have a concentration of their particular genotype, likely much higher than Vilani with small percentages of Vilani/minor hybrids, still smaller Vilani/minor/Terran mixing and a minute amount of extant Solomani genotype.

During the Long Night era the Solomani region expanded its population to hundreds of billions across the space it explored, colonised and built pocket empires in.

I have stated before and I will say again, the design decision to introduce a significant difference between the Vilani and Solomani - life span - was a silly thing to do since the core rules in every edition are for generating characters of a Terran heritage and thus don't reflect the setting.

 

[vegas]

The Ziru Sirka was larger than the Third Imperium, let us look at the demographics at the time the Vilani and Terrans encountered each other.

I don't think that is right. How do you figure that? MT tells us that it was "larger in relative terms" ie. comparing Jump1/2 vs Jump6, so that means they were about the same in absoulte terms. Also MT says that they skipped of inhospitable worlds because of lowers TL, which would make it absolutely smaller.

There were tens of trillions of Vilani, scattered across ten thousand worlds (more but the maths is easier) when the Ziru Sirka encountered the Terrans.

That is not a CT "fact" as far as I am aware. I am curious where that comes from? I don't know enough other sources very well.

The CT library data states Vilani is a "cultural" instead of "racial" label and that subject peoples were absorbed into the ZS culture. I think this makes it ambiguous (in CT) how many racial Vilani there are.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Reaching WAY back (I was looking to see where I'd mentioned "Solmani-ness is a cultural identity at this -- 1105 era -- point, not a genetic subgroup") I ran across this:
(bold added to highlight)

I don't think these rule sets totally stand on their own.

In Lorenverse, the Empress and other royals go on "get to know us" trips around the Imperium and to adjust local problems. In CT, Stephon did peaceful interviews.

There are psionic officers in Agent of the Imperium

A robot was knighted back in the original CT adventurers.

What prejudice? Humaniti is the majority.

Of course there were Imperial psionic officers in Agent of the Imperium. The book was set entirely before the Psionic Suppressions (800-820 IE). The last chapter was set in the 730s.

Until then, psionics were broadly viewed as superstition, fringe science at best -- and this in a universe where the Vilani afterlife was real!

Spoiler:

As demonstrated by the recovery of the library and genetic repository on Deiys, based on information from someone the Agent never met in life, and which was not transmitted back to the interdiction fleet.

To be fair, few people in-universe shared the life/death/life pathway that enabled Bland to experience the afterlife first-hand, let alone to do so repeatedly...


(Analyzing the implications of the Vilani view of the afterlife being valid for many sophont species probably belongs in the book discussion thread, though.)