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imperial culture

Early sources got changed.
And I'm going by what they were changed to. Not that they were changed as much as they were added to. Norris never did have the authority that a sector duke would have, as evidenced by his inability to legally land on Algine.

Note that Sup 3 doesn't list a sector capital at all for the marches. Doesn't mention Delphine at all... At least not in the CD version (which appears to be scanned from 2nd printing). Sup 3 has multiple printings, with revisions. Some versions don't show zones on the maps.
True. So the later information added to what was already established rather than changed it.

Many people I knew thought that the capital of the Marches was Regina. ISTR some third party materials reference it as such, but can't grep them...
There's even a map that lists Regina as the capital. But the sum total of all available evidence is that Mora was the sector capital and Delphine the sector duchess.


Hans
 
the 1981 FFW boardgame doesn't list a sector capital, and Mora isn't on the map. Regina serves as the capital of most import in the game, tho'... and is the naval headquarters for the marches. It's not an unreasonable jump to consider the naval HQ to be at the capital. (It's wrong, but not unreasonable.)

While I agree with Regina role as naval HQ, I'd say the most important Subsector Capital shown in FFW is Rhylanor, that also serves as assembly point for Imperial reinforcements...

Once again, I see Regina as Hawaii equivalent, while Rhylanor would take the role of San Francisco, to keep with WWII analogy. Mora is too far to have any influence in FFW (aside from assuming some Imperial/Colonial reinforcements might come from there)
 
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IMTU, there's a fairly sharp distinction between "Spacer" society - which tends to coincide with Imperial society, and is reasonably uniform wherever you are - and "Blue-sky" cultures, which tend to be varied except in a certain sort of parochialism. But then, IMTU the background isn't quite as complex as with the OTU.

Something like this happens IMTU (quite close to OTU). On it, moslty Imperial Services (Navy, Marine, Scouts, etc.) keep Imperial culture, that is mostly that for them and the nobility, while each planet has its own culture.

That's not unlike what happened with Roman Legions, that exported the Roman culture wherever they go, but most regions kept their own culture outside the more romanized cities (and even there when the own culture was strong enough, as in Greece or Middle east).

This has lead Imperial Culture to have some distinguishing traits:
  • Formality: as it is mostly the culture of some services (most of them highly militrized), it tends to be a very formal culture. Honor, respect to superiors and sense of duty are very hight on it.
  • Lack of popular distinguisihing traits: for the very same reasons, it lacks most of we see as distinguishing traits for a culture (legends, holydays, music, and folklore in general). Of course, some of all that exists (mostly among the low ranks). Soldiers/enlisted crewman have their songs, their legends, etc., but not to the extent most cultures have
  • Standarized: standarization is one of the basis of the Imperium. Every imperial rule/item is as standarized as possible (e.g. IDPs for ships). So, an IN crewmember can be rotated to any Imperial corner, and rules and hardware will be the same. Imperium keeps rotating units so that they don't attach too much to their Imperial region and they keep loyality to the Imperium at large, not to their region (something that happened to Roman Legions).

Imperium services are what keeps Imperium together, and efforts are made to keep them separated from local cultures to avoid fragmentation. They adapt to them, but they are always kept (to some extent) aside, and they try to enforce Imperial custoums among themselves.

As those same Services usually collaborate with local ones (e.g. the Marines on lease to local units), efforts are done to avoid such assignments to last too much, and are often given by people from other Imperial regions. By taking those steps, it is hoped that more Imperial culture will influence local one than vice versa, so helping to give (mostly to local services) some sense of Imperial, rather than allow Imperial services to be too attached to their region. The Imperium is quite paranoid in this sense.

Only nobility is not so rotated (for obvious reasons), but they use to be quite apart from their "subjects", and their command uses to be quite formal only, with planetary governments runing the day-to-day of the planets and the planet's nobles being some kind of ambassors/governors, with limited true power in the planet itself (some more in its Planetary Navy, should they have one, as Imperium thinks they must be kept some degree of control on them). While in some cases the local noble may also be the local governing person, this is rare (and shuned by the Imperium if possible), and in most cases the nobility keeps their affairs in meetings with noble counceils and keeping Imperial affairs, while moslty leaving the planets to themselves (as long as they don't go against Imperial interests).

Off course, all of this is IMTU...
 
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Prior to T5 Imperial government begins at the subsector level, and it is also there we must look for a meaningful Imperial culture, at least for frontier sectors like the SM.

What we still don't know is how Imperial the core worlds of the core sectors of the Imperium actually are.

Are Imperial core sector worlds ruled directly by the Imperium as the preamble to LBB4 and LBB5 indicate? Frontier worlds allowed extensive home rules due to distance from the Imperial core worlds suggests to me the Imperium governs its core worlds directly and hence that is where we should look for Imperial culture.

One day we may get a proper 3I sourcebook.
 
Prior to T5 Imperial government begins at the subsector level, and it is also there we must look for a meaningful Imperial culture, at least for frontier sectors like the SM.

What we still don't know is how Imperial the core worlds of the core sectors of the Imperium actually are.

Are Imperial core sector worlds ruled directly by the Imperium as the preamble to LBB4 and LBB5 indicate? Frontier worlds allowed extensive home rules due to distance from the Imperial core worlds suggests to me the Imperium governs its core worlds directly and hence that is where we should look for Imperial culture.

One day we may get a proper 3I sourcebook.


I would speculate that Imperial Core Worlds would be much more heavily influenced by Vilani and Sylean Cultural values. And the Vilani are traditionalists and used to "well-ordered bureaucracy", so there might be a more natural co-mingling of Imperial and local government, as that might be the choice of the local world governments as to their preferred means of local rule.


And ISTR those early canonical sources also implied that a significant proportion of the Spinward Marches had been settled by individuals with a culturally Solomani background.
 
I would speculate that Imperial Core Worlds would be much more heavily influenced by Vilani and Sylean Cultural values. And the Vilani are traditionalists and used to "well-ordered bureaucracy", so there might be a more natural co-mingling of Imperial and local government, as that might be the choice of the local world governments as to their preferred means of local rule.


And ISTR those early canonical sources also implied that a significant proportion of the Spinward Marches had been settled by individuals with a culturally Solomani background.

The Core worlds were, mostly, members of the Sylean Federation (-650 to 0), and of course were Vilani prior to the Solomani.

I agree that their cultures are based on Vilani and Sylean traditions - although Sylea itself was dominated by Solomani colonists (if I remember correctly). But it seems to me the Federation itself had a tradition of self rule, or at least was a amalgamation of pocket empires. Each would have had its own traditions. Then a thousand years of self determination, even if you are at the Imperial Core, means local attitudes and cultures probably flourish, at least outside of the ports and interstellar trade industries/areas.

I live in Los Angeles, arguably a core city of the United States. West side neighborhoods are certainly dominated by the prevailing culture of the US. But other areas, with not as much 'traffic' with the West side, have pockets of variant cultures. Not just recent immigrant communities either, but well established areas predating the East coast influx from the post-WWII era. The areas they don't show on TV/in movies.

I personally don't want to see a lot of the Imperium described officially. I like using a lot of the product settings nearly straight out of the box, as it were, but like to have areas were I can use that data to riff on to create my own areas. The Core seems like one of these - if its officially described, that means a LOT of the character of the 3I is going to be laid down as gospel. While I trust that clever, imaginative writers will create a wonderful "Imperial Culture" beyond what we know now, less is more.
 
I can see plenty of room for political tension between Mora and Regina for Sector Dominance for precisely the reasons we have all stated.
 
Prior to T5 Imperial government begins at the subsector level, and it is also there we must look for a meaningful Imperial culture

hm. is illinois chicago? is chicago illinois? it's hard to take them either separately or as a whole .... and this dynamic would ensue with almost any subsector with a dominant world. and recall, the "subsector" is nothing more than what would fit on the page of the lbb's .... personally I go by baronies, counties, and marches. baronies are otherwise independent planets. the lunion/strouden county is 4 parsecs (their jump tech) from either of them. the glisten march (so designated because of tech 15) extends 6 parsecs from glisten. etc. thus the "spinward marches".

I personally don't want to see a lot of the Imperium described officially.

well you can always ignore it. in any case near as I can see there's not much to ignore.

speaking of which, continuing the theme of planetary culture driving imperial, I'm considering trin's veil. speak up, what should it's culture be?
 
I can see plenty of room for political tension between Mora and Regina for Sector Dominance for precisely the reasons we have all stated.

nah, no contest. regina will just send the duke a 3d interactive holovid of his prepared palace, situated on the great waterfall of the wander river by the snow-white cliffs of the original sea, vast white clouds rolling overhead, stables filled with horses, nearby forest full of game and adventure ... the duke's wife will say "WE'RE LIVING THERE, NOT IN SOME HIGH TECH HABITAT!" and the duke will say "ok" ....
 
I can see plenty of room for political tension between Mora and Regina for Sector Dominance for precisely the reasons we have all stated.

Well, whatever tension there was didn't seem to survive the Rebellion/Virus, and the Duke seems to be the Head Honcho of the Regency post collapse.

(Mind I'm not as well read on all of this as y'all, but that's just my impression.)
 
I can see plenty of room for political tension between Mora and Regina for Sector Dominance for precisely the reasons we have all stated.

I don't expect that.

As I understand it, he sector Duke is only a Primus inter Pares in the Sector council, not holding true power over other Dukes.

Also, neither can Regina try to outmatch Mora's economical importance, nor can Mora try to outmatch Regina's strategic importance.

As for economical importance, Mora will be more in competition with other systems (Rhylanor, Trin, Glisten...) that are more in their league in pop and TL. And I guess all those systems see to their best interests not to allow Regina to fall in Zhodani hands...

Once again, Hawaii analogy, with those other (more populated and higher TL) subsector capitals being the main cities in west coast (San Francisco, Seatle, Los Angeles...) and Spindward Marches the Pacific Ocean in the analogy.

And, BTW, Lunion's situation in this scheme will be similar to Regina's, though the enemy at its doors (Sword Worlds) is seen as less dangerous and, in conjunction with Strouden (that I expect to be a close Lunion ally justfor those reasons) makes them more powerful.
 
But I see the reasons you're giving as validation of the idea of there being political tension between the two worlds. In the Norris interview, he talks about the importance of his respect and working relationship with the Duchess of Mora but there's the hint that, since the FFW, power has shifted more towards Regina. He's the Archduke (either by Imperial Warrant or by his own hand in anticipation of that warrant) and she's not. Regina is the world that went up two tech levels in a decade and I get the impression that with everything that's happened, Regina is the world on the move...on the make, if you will. Whereas the Archduke and the Duchess may enjoy a cordial relationship, the staffs of the two might conceivably have a rivalry.
 
I can see plenty of room for political tension between Mora and Regina for Sector Dominance for precisely the reasons we have all stated.

The tension was between the party of people, led by Delphine, who expected the Zhodani to be quisecent for decades or even centuries following the 4th Frontier War and the party, led by Norris, who expected them to strike again soon.

I just don't believe in the free-for-all to grab the sector dukehood when the old sector duke dies that Nobles describe. At least not as the usual event. It may happen occasionally, perhaps. But a change in sector duke would entail a change in sector capital which would entail a transference of the entire sector administration. I just don't see that as a common occurrence. IMO the duchesses of Mora have been sector duchesses from the day they assumed their ducal title ever since the Civil War.

So the enmity between Norris and Delphine was over the preparations (or lack of same) for the next frontier war.

Note that when Norris became archduke, he selected Mora and not Regina for his capital. Regina remained a mere subsector duke's dukedom.


Hans
 
Regina is the world that went up two tech levels in a decade...
The TL change from 10 to 12 was a retcon, not an in-universe change. Regina had been building TL13 ships (the J4 Kinunirs) for decades by 1105. So Regina would have been TL12/+1 Space TL in 1105 (and in 1080).


Hans
 
I really don't think you can use a white elephant like the Kinunir to justify that one. The rules and therefore the universe they describe are different.

You are using a ship that requires a retcon to justify a retcon that doesn't actually retcon the ship...

It would be just as easy to say that the General Yards on Regina were working on a military contract and so have access te the TL15 IN base facilities

Regina was TL10 until a typo in the SMC; it is still TL10 on my FFW map, LBB6 Merchant prince, LBB7 Scouts and in the T5 rulebook ;)

It makes sense to lift its TL during the shift to the rebellion/GATU era and the elevation of Norris, retcons are to be avoided at all costs IMHO.
 
I really don't think you can use a white elephant like the Kinunir to justify that one. The rules and therefore the universe they describe are different.

Regina was TL10 until a typo in the SMC; it is still Tl10 on my FFW map, LBB6 Merchant prince, LBB7 Scouts and in the T5 rulebook ;)

It makes sense to lift its TL during the shift to the rebellion era and the elevation of Norris, retcons are to be avoided at all costs..

Not just a white elephant, but one explicitly merely assembled there with multiple imported components. One of which cannot be manufactured at that time even at TL15 yards... relic black globes.

1200 Td
Jump 4 PP 4...
Even if we assume Bk5-80 draft rates...
J4 is 1200*.05= 60Td ... the size of L drives... should be TL 12 by volume, TL13 by performance. Can more easily be imported if TL10.
 
I really don't think you can use a white elephant like the Kinunir to justify that one. The rules and therefore the universe they describe are different.
But the point is that the rules and the universe HAS changed.

You are using a ship that requires a retcon to justify a retcon that doesn't actually retcon the ship...
I don't have to justify retcons. Retcons are official changes made by TPTB. They're their own justifications.

Regina was TL10 until a typo in the SMC; it is still TL10 on my FFW map, LBB6 Merchant prince, LBB7 Scouts and in the T5 rulebook ;)
The change may or may not have started as a typo; SMC made other changes that appear to be deliberate. However, it makes a lot more sense that a major trade center like Regina is TL12 (It would make even more sense if it was even higher, but that's by the way).

It makes sense to lift its TL during the shift to the rebellion/GATU era and the elevation of Norris, retcons are to be avoided at all costs IMHO.
A two level boost in six years does not make sense, given how difficult tech level increases appear to be. And, frankly, a Regina that ever dipped below TL12 at any time in its history makes little sense either.


Hans
 
Not just a white elephant, but one explicitly merely assembled there with multiple imported components.
Explicit is it? Quote, please.

One of which cannot be manufactured at that time even at TL15 yards... relic black globes.
The black globes in the Kinunirs are TL15 experimental devices. They were probably manufactured elsewhere, but they're a special case. Usually the TL of ship components do not exceed the TL of the shipyard where they're built.


Hans
 
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