Imperial Knights

[Whipsnade]

"To me, it would be bloody silly. Then, that's just me."

Sir,

You aren't alone! The idea of awarding XPs during a campaign that a player can then use to increase the abilities of their PC is, IMVHO, childish. XPs are nothing more than another useless leftover from D&D(1), much like the appendix in humans.

"I prefer verisimillitude in my games, thanks... and 5 or 6 middle-aged peeps pooling their resources for a downpayment on an old ship - or a single character acquiring a beat-up, mortgaged-to-the-hilt ship in prior history - is a lot more realistic than a bunch of 18-year-olds with no skills stumbling across the ancient ruins that everyone else missed, which just happen to contain oodles of spendable cash, which they liberate and spend at Honest Abe's Used Starship Emporium. (And as I pointed out before, how the hell are they going to fly the thing? Let me guess: "I went up a level in last week's dungeon crawl, so this week I'm going to take a level of Traveller, and my Pilot and Astrogation skills both go from zero to eight. Er, I read some manuals while my wounds were healing."

Well put. While other RPGs have mechanisms for learning and practice; even CT had guidlines for skill improvements, this idea of awarded XPs automatically conferring skills and feats is just plain silly. "Oh, let's beat up more people in that bar so I can learn jump navigation! Let's see, slapping around each rummy nets me 10 XP so I'll only need to slug a couple of dozen or so!"

Sheesh!

XPs in d20 *TRAVELLER* should be a rarely used GM's option, otherwise it's just a 57th Century dungeon crawl.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - D&D, the RPG preferred by 4 out of 5 Munchkins everywhere!

 

[TKalbfus]

Anton said, "I prefer verisimillitude in my games, thanks... and 5 or 6 middle-aged peeps pooling their resources for a downpayment on an old ship - or a single character acquiring a beat-up, mortgaged-to-the-hilt ship in prior history - is a lot more realistic than a bunch of 18-year-olds with no skills stumbling across the ancient ruins that everyone else missed, which just happen to contain oodles of spendable cash, which they liberate and spend at Honest Abe's Used Starship Emporium. (And as I pointed out before, how the hell are they going to fly the thing? Let me guess: "I went up a level in last week's dungeon crawl, so this week I'm going to take a level of Traveller, and my Pilot and Astrogation skills both go from zero to eight. Er, I read some manuals while my wounds were healing."

Yes, start out with middle aged peeps that are halfway to 20th level. Where the fun and sense of accomplishment in that. The fact is, you probably have to be 10th level to survive a 1st level high tech dungeon crawl. That is without rapid healing, your characters will just have to take an enourmous beating between hospital visits. Also I hope you enjoy rolling up new 10th level characters as replacements. My guess is the way a Traveller Adventure usually is is that you have an isolated combat encounter, then the injured characters spend a couple weeks in a hospital, then they have another isolated combat encounter. That hospital could be a ship's sickbay, heck that's what jump space is for. You orbit a planet, land on it, have a hostile encounter, then you take off and make for Jump space where you get a week in a sickbay bed to recooperate before your next planetfall. You should also have extra characters that never leave the ship unless it is to replace an injured party member.
As for the expensive starship, you don't want to risk that in encounters with pirates or whatnot. If the party doesn't own its own ship, they'll have to explain to their employer why they let a Cr70,000,000 ship get destroyed, and why he should continue to employ them after suffering such a major financial loss. The damage inflicted on a typical PC starship is likely to be enourmous. Aw come on folks, combat is part of the fun of playing the game. Realism isn't always what its cracked up to be.

 

[TKalbfus]

Enough of this pointless snipping. I just think we should keep an open mind about possible types of adventures. It doesn't always have to be about someone whose mustered out a multimillion dollar starship and whose struggling to pay off the starship loan. There are other ways to aquire one. I was just trying to figure out how a dungeon crawl would work in Traveller and I just get told it doesn't, that PCs should never go into underground complexes unless accompanied by an army. It seems there should be a way to do a nonspace based adventure in Traveller, at least for 1st level characters with an eye towards acquiring a starship.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Enough of this pointless snipping. I just think we should keep an open mind about possible types of adventures. It doesn't always have to be about someone whose mustered out a multimillion dollar starship and whose struggling to pay off the starship loan. There are other ways to aquire one. I was just trying to figure out how a dungeon crawl would work in Traveller and I just get told it doesn't, that PCs should never go into underground complexes unless accompanied by an army. It seems there should be a way to do a nonspace based adventure in Traveller, at least for 1st level characters with an eye towards acquiring a starship.

By all means if you want to run a dungeon crawl in a Traveller campaign, go for it! Hell, even Marc Miller has suggested that doing a 'dungeon crawl' adventure for Traveller would be fun.

There isn't a right or wrong way to play it, as long as you have fun.

Hunter

 

[Shadowdancer]

I always felt the CT adventure "Shadows" was sort of a dungeon crawl, as was the later portion of "Twilight's Peak." Small dungeon crawls, to be sure, but . . .

As for how appropriate they would be for a 1st-level party, I guess it depends on the party's skills.

It also would be pretty easy to include a mothballed starship as the prize at the end of either of these adventures. Probably easier for "Twilight's Peak."

Another dungeon crawl idea which could work in Traveller would be an enemy agent forward base/weapons and equipment cache. Have the PCs stumble upon a hidden complex used by enemy agents or which is waiting for the enemy agents to arrive. In the Marches, make it a Zho base; on the Rim, make it Solomani, etc. This base could include some plans, some equipment -- including weapons -- and even some money. Maybe even a small spaceship hidden away for emergencies. Even at first level, the characters should be able to get past the security systems of the complex -- it's best security is the fact it's hidden, probably underground or inside a mountain. If the agents arrive while the PCs are inside, you can have a good firefight.

While most Traveller adventures don't reflect the model established by classic D&D-type adventures, it is possible to achieve the same results with a little thought and imagination.

 

[Anton]

Yes, "Shadows" was the name of the adventure I was trying to think of.

I actually agree with Hunter and you, Tom, in a way- by all means run a dungeon crawl. My advice though would be to make it more specific to Traveller, or else why not just play "D&D in space with lasers and starships".

So, if I was running your game, what I'd do is make it a 'realistic' dungeon, with intelligent opposition. It should be a challenge where combat is not the only solution. I'd forget the cases of credits lying around, but let the players find other valuable artifacts that could be sold.

Nobody is going to leave MCr70 lying around undefended, but old artifacts could be worth a lot to someone. Or, if you were running the 'secret base' idea that someone else suggested, some cash/saleable equipment could be an option. The problem there is that there aren't going to be TL17+ healing potions lying around...

IMO, combat shouldn't be the 'be all and end all' of the game, but that's MTU. Having said that, later tonight, my six players will be facing 600 mounted barbarians

I agree with you about re-rolling characters

but having said that, experienced, older characters have always been part of the game since its inception. It can actually be fun playing an over-the-hill 34 old (ahem!). Nothing says the characters have to be 50+, 10th level guys. All the characters in my game did between 4 and 6 terms of prior history and average around 6th level. Skills and feats (and saving throws, if you're running a combat-oriented game!) are important, so you could let the players take one to three terms of prior history?

But as I said in one of my first posts in the thread, and as Hunter jumped in to reiterate, it's your game, play it the way you want.

Regards,

Anton

 

[TKalbfus]

Anton said,

Nobody is going to leave MCr70 lying around undefended, but old artifacts could be worth a lot to someone. Or, if you were running the 'secret base' idea that someone else suggested, some cash/saleable equipment could be an option. The problem there is that there aren't going to be TL17+ healing potions lying around...

The main problem I think is that any TL17 civilization that existed in the past, isn't going to use Imperial Credits as their currency. If Imperial Credits are lying there, it is because someone later came along and left them, or the denizens of the dungeon robbed a few banks and brought their loot back to their lair. An alternative to credits lying around would be a bag full of diamonds, rubies, and emerals, gems worth Cr10,000 each, the reason they lie unguarded is because nobody knows they are there. Whoever left them is dead, and it is perhaps guarded by a creature that doesn't appreciate their value. Another idea for a treasure would be a box full of fusion pistols, shorter ranged versions of the fusion rifle, the Imperium doesn't know how to make them. I have a number of ideas for artifacts that are above TL15. How about stasis fields, personal force fields, that healing potion I mentioned. Pocket computers containing multiple artificial intelligences. A personal backpack jumpdrive that can operate within a planets gravity field (Vacc Suit required) The Imperium would like to get their hands on these things, and they'd probably break them as they studied it to learn a few facts and they'll pay handsomely for those items too.

 

[Whipsnade]

"Enough of this pointless snipping. I just think we should keep an open mind about possible types of adventures."


Mr. Kalbfus,

You are, of course, completely correct sir. I know of a fellow whose Traveller campaign features jump missiles, psionic cyborgs, sword wielding pirates, PCs with absurdly high skill levels (how does pistol-10 grab you?) and just about every other rabbit he can pull out of his GM's hat. I'm sure he and his players have loads of fun. However, if he asked me my opinion of how well his campaign 'fits' the feel of Traveller, he'd get the same answer you've recieved over your 'dungeon crawl for a starship' musings; 'That's not Traveller, that's D&D."

No one is saying you can't run a campaign that way, by all means do so if you find it fun, but if you solicit opinions about such a setting be ready for the opinions you'll recieve.

Returning to your original question; how can 1st level PCs reasonably expect to have and/or acquire a starship? Well, reasonably they cannot. I'd be surprised if 1st level PCs even had the SKILLS neccessary to operate a starship. You see, in Traveller, most players aren't '1st Level'. They've usually served 2 or more terms in order to gain a bare minumum of skills. No one usually operates or owns a starship at the level you're proposing because they don't even have the skills to do so.

So, how can these 1st level whatevers 'get' a starship? Easy, all you have to do is remember that 'get' does not equate 'own'. Here are some examples:

- Have your PCs acting as the new crew aboard a paramilitary vessel. The crew positions they can't fill do to skill limitations can be filled by NPCs (read: You the GM).

- Have a patron (a very Traveller-ish term) loan the PCs a ship for a series of tasks. If they do well, they may recieve the ship as a reward.

- Have the PCs work aboard a vessel owned by a corporate entity. CT's Traveller Adventure does this. The 'March Harrier' is owned by a firm three sectors away on Vland. The PCs must operate along a route for a certain period each year and then can engage in speculative trade or adventures in the 'free' portion of the year that is left.

All these examples have the benefit of allowing the GM, you, to gently guide the campaign along certain paths without simply make flat pronouncements; the PCs are on world A because they've been ordered to visit there or the PCs must be at point A by time B in order to pay the ship's owner. The possibilities are enormous.

"It doesn't always have to be about someone whose mustered out a multimillion dollar starship and whose struggling to pay off the starship loan. There are other ways to aquire one."

Yes, there are and I just listed three of them. Hitting the XP jackpot in the form of a dungeon crawl involving 1st level players who don't even have the skills to fly a ship in the first place could be one way too. It wouldn't be my first choice, but that doesn't matter because it is YOUR choice.

"It seems there should be a way to do a nonspace based adventure in Traveller, at least for 1st level characters with an eye towards acquiring a starship."

As for nonspace-based adventures, CT's 'Shadows' is one and portions of 'Twilight's Peak' is another. 'Death Station' and 'Kinunir' are all dungeon crawls of a sort, you just need a ship to get there. You could have the PCs act as local hirlings for a group that has arrived to investigate the 'dungeon'. During the ensuing adventure, the PCs do well enough and enough of the hiring party's NPCs get slagged for the PCs to be hired full time. Bingo, they're on a ship as a result of a dungeon crawl WITHOUT having to gather enough swag to buy one. Easy, no?

Your questions are a result of d20 metagame aspects and how poorly those aspects fit the Traveller setting. The idea of 'levels', XPs, and other bits do not translate well, IMEHO. While they work in the original fantasy-medieval setting of D&D, they require far too much warping and adjusting to fit other settings. Unlike GURPS, d20 did NOT begin as a generic rules system and must account for that each time it is extended into other settings. Look at what had to be done with the lifeblood mechanic between d20 and T20. Changes were made and those changes need to be repeatedly pointed out to d20 players; just because their d20 12th Level ranger could shrug off an arrow (yeah, right!) doesn't mean their T20 12 level merchant can shrug off a shotgun blast.

The idea of 'levels' is another example. They were part of D&D due to 1970s metagame concerns; D&D is a 'game' and games must have 'goals', thus the 'goal' in this 'game' is to advance your charecter through different levels while getting bigger and badder all the while. Pokemon does pretty much the same thing; earn Poke-XPs by slapping around other monsters and you can advance you Etc-mon to Etc-plus-mon, Super-Etc-plus-mon, Super-Duper-Etc-plus-mon, and so forth. It's a nice mechanic, it just doesn't happen to fit RPGs that well.

The RPGs that followed D&D came to realize that the 'goal' of the 'game' was whatever the players decided the goal should be. No metagame goal needed to be imbedded in the system. To misquote Bill of Avon, 'the PLAY is the thing' and not some desire to reach the 87th level of Ninja-Fu and than start all over again.

The mechanism of cycling through levels and gathering XPs works in D&D's limited fantasy-medieval skills set. Wiping out that bar-full of orcs and spending the XPs you earn on various combat skills and feats can make sense; you may have picked up a few combat tips or figured out how to hold your sword better. However, wiping out a bar-full of Vargr and using the XPs you earn on a jump navigation feat makes no goddam sense at all. You simply can't explain that in any plausible manner. That's the disconnect between d20 and most other RPGs. When d20 rules are warped for use in the Traveller setting, they must take this disconnect into account.

D&D and it's heir, d20, are designed with a metagame goal of level/skill/feat progression in mind. You cycle through adventures and campaigns with the goal of using XPs you earn to 'grow' your Etc-mon PC into a 2nd Level Etc-mon, then a 3rd Level Etc-mon, and so forth. Unfortunately Traveller, and most other RPGs, were not designed with a similar metagame goal in mind, so this most fundamental part of d20 must either be ignored or heavily adjusted in some manner.

You can learn new skills or improve on old skills in every version of Traveller. However, unlike D&D's XP rewards, the mechanism is very gradual and very specific. If you successfully make a series of vacc-suit rolls over the course of an adventure you might be able to develop vacc suit-0 to vacc suit-1. In another method, you may budget certain amounts of game time towards formal study which, over a the course of a game year, may allow you to develop a skill. Now contrast this 'Repeated Successful Use and Formal Learning' system to the d20 XP rewards system. The XPs earned during a specific adventure could be spent to improve a skill or acquire a feat you never even used during that adventure whereas the Traveller system is much more narrowly applied. This is because there is no metagame goal embedded in Traveller, no progression of Etc-mons.

The difference between the d20 system of rewards, XPs, feats, and levels and Traveller system of learning, skills, and terms is a large one. It goes right back to the basics of each setting, it is woven into what they are. IMEHO, if you're rewarding your PCs with XPs so they can cycle through levels into bigger and badder Etc-mons, you're not playing Traveller. You're playing a D&D Cinematic Space Opera that just so happens to be set in the Traveller universe.

Of course, all that really matters is that you're playing and that you're having fun!

Thanks for sharing your ideas and concerns with us. As always, I learned a lot.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Larsen,

Hear, Hear! Bloody good posting!

Traveller is for those gamers who enjoy the adventure aspect of RPG's, rather than the advancement of their characters and accumulation of wealth.

As for skill levels, here's a list that I made up a while back that should be self-explanatory:

7 - Impossible; nobody gets this high.
6 - Mythical; nobody we know got this high.
5 - Legendary; somebody did once (a friend of a friend of a friend), but not recently.
4 - Outstanding; on par with brain surgeons and rocket scientist.
3 - Excellent; well-reputed freelancer.
2 - Good; Never unemployed for long.
1 - Fair; hourly worker.
0 - Average skill, weapons default.

I have only one player character with Medical-4, all the rest have skill level 3 or less. It makes for more interesting play.

 

[TKalbfus]

The mechanism of cycling through levels and gathering XPs works in D&D's limited fantasy-medieval skills set. Wiping out that bar-full of orcs and spending the XPs you earn on various combat skills and feats can make sense; you may have picked up a few combat tips or figured out how to hold your sword better. However, wiping out a bar-full of Vargr and using the XPs you earn on a jump navigation feat makes no goddam sense at all. You simply can't explain that in any plausible manner. That's the disconnect between d20 and most other RPGs. When d20 rules are warped for use in the Traveller setting, they must take this disconnect into account.

In some versions of D&D training was required, you'd earn X amount of experience points then you'd pay your trainer Y amount of gold pieces to advance to next level. Now in D&D the XP is to advance your character to the next level, with the attendant additonal hit points and improved chances to hit. Additional skills come with an increase in level. To learn those skills your character would go to a trainer for a certain amount of "Off-stage" time. The Referee would advance the game calender a few months and your character has a new level and new skills. I don't see how Traveller makes this different. I can see your a CT purist. You like the game just as it was. I think T20 brings some improvements to the Traveller game.

1.) It provides a metagame goal. The players know what to do if they have nothing else in mind. i.e. they go find an adventure with a potential to earn xp. The referee finds it easier to adjust the adventure to the level of the characters. You can say in a single sentence that "This adventure is a 1st level adventure." or "for 4 characters who average level is 5." In CT you'd have to say something like, "This adventure is for a party of 4 characters, one of whom must be a scout with Pilot-3, and another must be a Navy Engineer with Engineering-4, the party should also include a character with First Aid-3 or Medical Treatment-2" You get the picture.

2) Traveller weapons are killers, it helps to have extra hit points when you advance a level. How hard is it for a Traveller character to survive a direct hit with a fusion gun? "The Traveller character has amassed a huge fortune and was about to take over the planet when some nobody blasted him in the back with a fusion gun. There's nothing left of him now."
D20 characters have staying power that CT characters did not.

3) Also remember that GDW became extinct and Traveller became a collectors item, while D&D continued to sell on the books shelves. Their must be something D&D was doing right that Traveller could emulate. One thing that had my head spinning was all the different versions of Traveller their were, it seemed that everytime I picked up a boxed set, I had to learn a new RPG. Some of the rules involved playing cards, while others involved adjectives with intrinsic values you had to remember or else look up on a specific page of a certain rulebook slowing down play. I'm familiar with d20 so that makes it easier for my to migrate to this game. D&D also had another feature, and that was it was easy to DM. Many RPGs left the GM groping. D&D has rules regarding how much xp to award for killing a certian monster, how much treasure to award. While with other RPGs you'd either had to follow published material, or the GM had to use his best judgement. For instance a PC is attacked by a thug in the street. The PC kills the thug and then says, "I search his pocket. How much cash does he have in his wallet?" The GM didn't think about this much as the thug was only a minor character and their are no table to consult so he goes, "Uh Cr50,000, er no thats too much, how about Cr3, naw!, thats too little. Now what else should he have in his pocket? Er um..." You get the picture, there are no tables to consult for treasure. Without levels, its hard to judge what sort of opponents to throw at the PC party. There's a chance that weak opponents have too much treasure and powerful opponents have too little. Also Traveller is heavily dependent on employers. The PCs are often force to say, "Where to boss? Where do we go now? Who goes through that door first? What's our next assignment?" In D&D the characters go just about where ever they feel like, and if the DM has nothing prepared he just throws up a few random encounters. I've played several sessions with characters crossing the ocean on a sailing ship, and they encounter sea monsters, pirate ships, ghost ships, more sea monsters, a Dragon and an occasional randomly generated island. The DM had no particular adventure in mind and was in no particular hurry for the PCs to cross the ocean. What Traveller needs is to be easier to referee so that more people will play and it won't go extinct again.
As for Munchkins, well the more inexperienced players and referees there are the better, because that means the game is growing.

 

[Whipsnade]

"I can see your a CT purist. You like the game just as it was. I think T20 brings some improvements to the Traveller game."


Mr. Kalbfus,

Hardly. I may prefer the CT *setting*, but I use MT's task resolution system, TNE's ship construction system (FF&S), and currently use a yet-unpublished ship combat system. I am no CT purist.

Also, I do think T20 brings in more players and that is an improvement.

Your wrote with regards to the XP system and embedded game goals:

"1.) It provides a metagame goal. The players know what to do if they have nothing else in mind. i.e. they go find an adventure with a potential to earn xp."

That's one way to run an RPG session. Having an embedded goal like accumulating XP does have it's uses, but Traveller never had any embedded goals. Playing was the goal and not cycling through some metagame Pokemon-like PC progression. Having a metagame goal isn't better or worse then not having one. It is very different however.

"The referee finds it easier to adjust the adventure to the level of the characters."

I find that statement amazing. GMs have *always* had to adjust the adventure to their players levels, skills, and abilities. I suppose some GMs may need help in doing that but, seeing as how it is so fundamental to a GM's job, I'm surprised some GMs would want it done for them. Every adventure, every campaign, and every party is too different. I don't want off-the-shelf cookie cutter materials.

"2) Traveller weapons are killers, it helps to have extra hit points when you advance a level."

Huh?!? Weapons *are* killers. That's why they're called 'weapons'. They've been dreamed up, invented, developed, and refined with the idea of KILLING people in mind. Anything else; such as my X-Level ranger shrugging off a hit from your battle-axe, is fantasy. Weapons KILL, that's why they exist.

"How hard is it for a Traveller character to survive a direct hit with a fusion gun?"

Even in battledress, it should be close to impossible. After all, a fusion gun is a weapon, it's meant to KILL people.

"The Traveller character has amassed a huge fortune and was about to take over the planet when some nobody blasted him in the back with a fusion gun. There's nothing left of him now."
D20 characters have staying power that CT characters did not."

That's utter nonsense. Explain to me in plausible terms WHY a 10th Level PC should be abel to survive a fusion hit better than a 1st Level PC. Does the 10th Level PC remember to wear fusion gun sun block or something? She learned the Anti Fusion Gun Ju-Jitsu at 8th Level?

Becoming harder to kill thanks to some Pokemon-like PC progression is foolishness and doesn't fit the Traveller setting. You're supposed to *role-play* your way through dangers and not depend on the fantastic abilities some b.s. level mechanic suddenly gave you.

"3) Also remember that GDW became extinct and Traveller became a collectors item, while D&D continued to sell on the books shelves."
(deletion of further whining)

I see I failed completely in getting my point across. This is not about Traveller being better than D&D or D&D being better than Traveller. Neither is better than the other, but they both are *very* different. That's the rub.

The core rules of each system; especially the idea of XPs and level progression, encourage a certain style of play, which in turn heavily influences the settings devised for that play. Complaining that a XP harvesting dungeon crawl for 1st Level players is nearly impossible to set-up in the Traveller *setting* is like complaining that a piece of music written for the harpsicord doesn't sound well on a saxophone. You're trying to compare and contrast two very different things.

The original Traveller rules have no need for XP harvesting dungeon crawls so the Traveller setting has little place for them. This doesn't mean that Traveller is better than an RPG whose rules provide a reason for dungeon crawls. However, it does mean that Traveller is *different* than the other RPG.

"I'm familiar with d20 so that makes it easier for my to migrate to this game. D&D also had another feature, and that was it was easy to DM."

All good points. We use systems we're familiar with and, as a GM myself, I appreciate the idea of things being easy.

But, you need to remember that d20 is NOT a generic rules set. It is a fantasy rules set with an embedded metagame goal that has been adjusted to somewhat cover other settings. In the case of Traveller, a basic portion of the d20 core rules; the XP-Level progression system, does not fit the Traveller *setting* at all. T20's attempt to recast Levels as prior career terms was simply the best of many bad choices that could have been made. (IMVHO, the XP-Level progression mechanic is little more than an evolutionary appendix left in place to satisfy munchkins and the best thing T20 or d20 could have done was ditch levels altogether.)

"Many RPGs left the GM groping. D&D has rules regarding how much xp to award for killing a certian monster, how much treasure to award. While with other RPGs you'd either had to follow published material, or the GM had to use his best judgement."

And the problem there is exactly what? Why shouldn't a GM trust his own judgement? Who knows the gaming party better, the GM on the spot or someone who wrote an adventure supplement years ago and miles away? Shouldn't a GM do SOME work, or is it all an exercise in table look ups and die rolling? I thought this was about *role-playing* and not *accounting*.

"You get the picture, there are no tables to consult for treasure."

Sadly, you don't get the Traveller picture. In Traveller, there is no NEED for treasure so there are NO treasure tables. It is a different setting, remember?

"Without levels, its hard to judge what sort of opponents to throw at the PC party. There's a chance that weak opponents have too much treasure and powerful opponents have too little."

Good grief! I'm a lazy GM but a GM not knowing just what his party of PCs can handle and just what they cannot is even lazier than I am!

"Also Traveller is heavily dependent on employers. The PCs are often force to say, "Where to boss? Where do we go now? Who goes through that door first? What's our next assignment?"

Of course, this is called 'role-playing'.

"In D&D the characters go just about where ever they feel like, and if the DM has nothing prepared he just throws up a few random encounters."

And that is called combat munchkins looking up encounter tables for easy XP harvests. While that is a style of RPG play, the Traveller *setting* does not support it very well.

"I've played several sessions with characters crossing the ocean on a sailing ship, and they encounter sea monsters, pirate ships, ghost ships, more sea monsters, a Dragon and an occasional randomly generated island. The DM had no particular adventure in mind and was in no particular hurry for the PCs to cross the ocean."

Check out the in-system travel encounter charts in any version of Traveller. It's pretty much the same.

"What Traveller needs is to be easier to referee so that more people will play and it won't go extinct again."

I'll leave that flamebait untouched. Traveller did not go 'extinct', sure new materials were not published for it, but it did not vanish. I also play 'En Garde'. It hasn't been published since the 70s and has a very large web presence. It isn't 'extinct' either.

"As for Munchkins, well the more inexperienced players and referees there are the better, because that means the game is growing."

You misunderstand the term 'munchkin'. It does not refer to a new player or new GM, it refers to what wargamers call a 'rules lawyer'.

A munchkin is someone who knows every letter of rules while completely ignoring the spirit of the rules. A munchkin in D&D would know that a sword does X amount of damage and, knowing that his 12th level Whatever could withstand X-1 hits, would take a sword hit knowing he could 'handle' it. A munchkin in T20 would know that a handgun did X amount of damage and, knowing that his charecter could take X-1 hits, would blithely let himself be shot because it couldn't 'hurt' him. Both those actions are not 'role-playing', they are 'rules-lawyering' and, sadly, d20's XP system rewards just that behavior.

We're supposed to be 'role-playing' and not figuring angles and percentages like some race track tipster.

As always, it has been truly eye-opening to read your remarks. I'm glad you chose to discuss this topic. I know I learned many things from our chatting.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[TKalbfus]

Larsen said,

That's utter nonsense. Explain to me in plausible terms WHY a 10th Level PC should be abel to survive a fusion hit better than a 1st Level PC. Does the 10th Level PC remember to wear fusion gun sun block or something? She learned the Anti Fusion Gun Ju-Jitsu at 8th Level?

He shouldn't, that is reality. Traveller isn't reality though, it is a game. In reality a high level character wouldn't do the fighting him self, he'd hire henchmen to do his fighting for him, in a realistic Traveller that is exactly what happens. Because they are so vulnerable, they are forced to cower and send all the cannon fodder up ahead to do all the fighting and dying for him. This is what most leaders of nations do, and what most Generals of armies do today, they are organizational managers. I once hap a player who was an organizational manager, he had building projects, had to keep track of everyone's pay, he had starship's contructed for his fleet as he went to war and made incursions into Imperial Space. His character was quite safe though, behind the walls of a capital starship while all of his minions did the fighting for him. Hardly sounds heroic doesn't it? Well that's what a character has got to do if he is ever to reach high levels of power and influence in Classic Traveller. I suppose you might like to play a character like that, I don't know, but if you want a character to do his own fighting and live longer than a few fights, you need some means that allow him to live longer, and your right it isn't realistic. Being realistic is small consolation to someone who has to role up new characters all the time because his old ones get killed all the time, perhaps he'd rather go play D&D in that case, that is why I think T20 is an improvement, because it allows for people to play heroic characters.

"Also Traveller is heavily dependent on employers. The PCs are often force to say, "Where to boss? Where do we go now? Who goes through that door first? What's our next assignment?"

Of course, this is called 'role-playing'.

The idea is for the players to make the party's decisions, not the Referee, that is what makes Refereeing fun, the fact that you don't know what the players are going to do. If you are going to lead the players by the nose through an adventure, you might as well write a book. The challenge of being a Referee, GM, or DM is that you don't know what the players are going to do, you have to anticipate their actions, and the action never unfolds exactly the way you expect it to.

A munchkin is someone who knows every letter of rules while completely ignoring the spirit of the rules. A munchkin in D&D would know that a sword does X amount of damage and, knowing that his 12th level Whatever could withstand X-1 hits, would take a sword hit knowing he could 'handle' it. A munchkin in T20 would know that a handgun did X amount of damage and, knowing that his charecter could take X-1 hits, would blithely let himself be shot because it couldn't 'hurt' him. Both those actions are not 'role-playing', they are 'rules-lawyering' and, sadly, d20's XP system rewards just that behavior.

A munchkin-proof game is also very difficult to play as well, because their are few rules with which munchkins can be a rules lawyer about, but few rules also means you need an expert GM to resolve questions that the Game rules does not cover. Any game that required a veteran GM hack is going to have trouble recruiting new players. The old players might love it, but the new ones are going to be intimidated by their inability to run the game properly. They may do things like award too much treasure, or the players gain power too quickly or they are just as quickly killed. Such a game might not sell very well over time, it might go out of print, but the veteran GM and players will save a spot on their book shelves for it and continue to play it none the less, priding themselves on their expertise in handling the game that for so long has frusterated other players. Newbies as they call them, little do they know how clueless they are.

 

[Whipsnade]

"In reality a high level character wouldn't do the fighting him self, he'd hire henchmen to do his fighting for him, in a realistic Traveller that is exactly what happens. Because they are so vulnerable, they are forced to cower and send all the cannon fodder up ahead to do all the fighting and dying for him."


Mr. Kalbfus,

Okay, this is getting us no where fast. You obviously have no idea of either what the Traveller *setting* is all about or the point I was trying to get across. I have completely failed to explain both to you.

There are NO 'high level' charecters in a Traveller *setting* because there are NO levels in a D&D sense. In T20, the d20/D&D idea of levels has morphed into a clunky, bastardized version of the Traveller setting's prior career terms and in-game formal education. This was done to fit a non-generic set of fantasy-heoric RPG rules into a completely different setting than the one they were originally developed for. You need to forget about D&D idea of levels, and all that comes with them, when you play d20 in a Traveller *setting*.

Because there are NO levels in a D&D/d20 sense, there are NO high level charecters with all the 'hard to kill' and other baggage that the D&D levels imply. Some Traveller charecters may have more skills than others and some Traveller charecters may have more money than others, but under the skin all Traveller charecters are pretty much the same. You can be the Emperor of the Third Imperium and a single pistol shot will take your life. That's a fact and you can look it up.

The Traveller *setting* is NOT about combat, combat, and more combat for only combat's sake. Traveller is NOT a series of table rolled, XP harvesting, 'monster' slaying encounters designed to allow the Pokemon-like progression of PCs into fantastic, super-human combat machines. That's one style of play that is a result of d20 rules mechanisms developed for play in a heroic-fantasy setting. You cannot expect to import a heroic-fantasy set of rules and style of play into a (reasonably) realistic, hard SF setting developed for an entirely different set of rules and style of play and then expect it all fit together seamlessly.

Traveller is about reasonably normal human beings who happen to live in the Far Furture and who do things everyday; like visit other worlds, that we wish we could. Traveller is not about working your PC up to 10th Level status so you can shrug off fusion gun hits during a dungeon crawl. Traveller and D&D are different.

This thread is not, or was not, about whether the D&D heroic-fantasy setting and it's attendent style of play is better or worse than Traveller's semirealistic-hard SF setting and style of play. Neither setting or style is better or worse than the other. However, they are very DIFFERENT. That is precisely what you cannot seem to grasp and exactly what I have failed to explain to you.

You began this thread by asking why it was so hard for a group of 1st Level PCs in the Traveller *setting* to work through a series of XP harvesting dungeon crawls in order to acquire a ship. Well, we have all answered your question; it is because XP harvesting dungeon crawls are not supported by the Traveller *setting*. There was no need for them in the original Traveller rules and so the Traveller setting developed without them.

That's your answer. Take it or leave it, and I hope you have fun playing in the Traveller *setting*.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[TKalbfus]

You began this thread by asking why it was so hard for a group of 1st Level PCs in the Traveller *setting* to work through a series of XP harvesting dungeon crawls in order to acquire a ship. Well, we have all answered your question; it is because XP harvesting dungeon crawls are not supported by the Traveller *setting*. There was no need for them in the original Traveller rules and so the Traveller setting developed without them.

Well then Classic Traveller or Mega Traveller is for you. If you want to go on a series of XP harvesting dungeon crawls then you get a game like T20. To each his own, I have no quarrel with people who want a realistic setting, and honestly T20 has combat rules and I believe they should be used. Yes there are no levels in classic Traveller, some people like this and others don't, I think T20 should be an attempt to attract the kind of players who like to increase their character levels and decrease their vulnerablity while becoming better fighting machines, otherwise why do a d20 version of Traveller in the first place, if all it does is faithfully emulate Classic Traveller, there is no point. The point is to tell a great story. If you listen to a world war II Vet tell his war stories, you are listening to the stories of a survivor, those that get cut down early in battle never get to tell their stories. When you play Traveller, you want some excitement and some danger, if the rules just cut you down like cannon fodder time and time again, and T20 characters take a long time to roll up, its not going to be fun. You need some built in survivability so your character can go on to meet greater and more dangerous foes, thats what T20 and the d20 game system is for. If you want to play differently stick with classic or MegaTraveller.

 

[Whipsnade]

"Well then Classic Traveller or Mega Traveller is for you."


Mr. Kalbfus,

I give up.

Would anyone else care to have a go? Maybe there is some other way to explain all this to Mr. Kalbfus? Some example or analogy I failed to use? Anyone? Bueller?

I will leave you with one last point to ponder. If you want to play 'D&D in Space' with all the Pokemon-like charecter level progression, XP harvests, and all the other mechanisms that that implies, why aren't you using Spelljammer? Why are you playing T20, a d20 variant rules set meant to expose players to a completely different RPG setting?

This entire website was setup to discuss the Traveller setting and not to field complaints that the T20 Traveller setting plays differently than the d20 heroic-fantsy setting of D&D.

Have fun playing, however you do it.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[clementk]

Well then I guess I should give away my copies of Call of Cthulhu d20, t20, Freeport, and burn my Polyhedron mini-games and Planescape notes for 3e then 'cos I'm not playing d20 games correctly. And while I'm at it, my D&D3E corebooks and d20 Modern. Seriously if I want D&D in space I'll get Dragonstar or use the Spelljammer mini-game and even then it wouldn't be purely combat based. Even d20 Modern is not as combat-orientated as say D&D3E.

d20 != D&D and t20 != D&D or d20 SRD

That being said, play what you will, how you will. : )

Finally if you don't rush into combat headlong or rely on a snazzy suit of armor to absorb any damage, your chances of surviving combat in any rpg go up substantially.

Casey

 

[Whipsnade]

"Seriously if I want D&D in space I'll get Dragonstar or use the Spelljammer mini-game and even then it wouldn't be purely combat based. Even d20 Modern is not as combat-orientated as say D&D3E."


Sir,

Very well put. You said in a few sentences what I failed to in three huge posts.

"That being said, play what you will, how you will. : ) "

Again, well said, sir.

"Finally if you don't rush into combat headlong or rely on a snazzy suit of armor to absorb any damage, your chances of surviving combat in any rpg go up substantially. "

There's nothing wrong being a combat-junkie, lots of games and settings cater to that style of play. However, there is something wrong in complaining whenever you find a setting that doesn't cater to combat-junkies. Or complaining when a setting makes a combat-junkie style of play hard to achieve.

I've got a buddy in my gaming group who plays 'Age of Empires' a lot. The thing is, he just plays it very differently than the rest of us do. He opens a random map, reveals the entire map, and toggles the game speed to high. Then he sits back and waits awhile. His villagers just stand around and don't build anything. Once he's figured the players the computer is running have advanced sufficiently, he enters a cheat code, recieves a rocket-armed Iroc-Z car, and begins blowing everything up. He times how fast he can do it; I razed X buildings and killed Y units in Z minutes. That's how he likes to play Age of Empires, says it's great stress relief and I'm inclined to believe him.

Now the rest of us, we build things, gather materials, develop technologies, and do all the other things to be done in Age of Empires. When we sit around and discuss strategies for reaching the Iron Age, or proper numbers for villagers, or which technologies you should develop first, he doesn't pipe up and say 'Build a rocket car so you can blow them all up faster'. He knows we play the SAME game in a completely different manner.

Also, he doesn't complain when Age of Empires, which wasn't designed to be a combat-junkie, shoot 'em up game, doesn't let him play in a combat-junkie, shoot 'em up style. If he has to build a boat to cross to cross a body of water, he builds the boat and doesn't bitch because the rocket car won't float. He understands how Age of Empires was meant to be played and realizes that his very different style of play might not fit the game prefectly.

Different games favor different styles of play. None are better, but all are different.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Liam Devlin]

"What an incredible turn this thread has taken off topic from Imperial Knights..."(Liam observes)

ON TOPIC..

In the OTU, there are various Orders of Knighthoods, as far trader and several others before we went down D& D memory lane (which I firmly will leave lying dead on arrival in this thread, as it should be)have said, just as the british use today.

Now, to be fair, not all the best and brightest/ bravest examples of Imperial citizenry are so recognized, there is a political element to this after all, how much juice your petitioners make on their behalf, etc.
Given the size of the Imperium it could be 4-6 years before word was returned that a person had been so honored.(jump space time lag etc).

An example of such a Knighthood was used in Knightfall/MT adventure, for not a warrior, but an academic, who discovered the "primordials" (Without Opening that can of worms on canonicity of primordials)...

The Order of the Emperor's Guard, is another (military Order) for those who have won the SEH.. and winning that medal isn't easy, entry to the Order is not a given either...

Research the current orders of Knighthood with thos eof old, and see what you can extrapolate into the 56th century! (or before!)

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
I will leave you with one last point to ponder. If you want to play 'D&D in Space' with all the Pokemon-like charecter level progression, XP harvests, and all the other mechanisms that that implies, why aren't you using Spelljammer? Why are you playing T20, a d20 variant rules set meant to expose players to a completely different RPG setting?

Having played Spelljammer for 2 years, I can safely say that T20 isn't like D&D...

I have yet to see any group of 10th level T20 characters defeating a radiant dragon alone. (well, unless they've got a big ship).

I have yet to see any group of 10th level T20c haractesr surviving encounters with a many-time bigger Pirate ship & Crew withouth anything more than "only a flesh wound".

I have yet to see any character running into combat with only light armor and normal weapons with a smile on his face and getting out victorious after suffering only some minor wounds.

Combat is so mortal in T20 that if you plan on building a Marines through combat, for combat, you're suicidal. You'll probably spend more times on skills than combat, meaning more roleplay.

XPs doesn't mean BIGGER, BETTER Characters as in D&D... but only because T20 designers have bent and modified rules so it is not. Sure, you have more skills and more combat bonus, but the proverbial Butterknife can still kill you.

Having done a few CT characters for a PBEM, I see a difference in the scope of the skills between CT and T20, meaning you'll have to get more T20 skills to do what a CT character can do with his skills.

That's a part of why you need to "earn" levels to get more skills, else you'll be forever incompetent, unlike CT characters that begin with many competences, even if they're not godlike

For what it's worth, I agree with Mr. Whipsnade's that since T20 is Level Base, if you still want to have some "fun" (ie: have the sense that your character is evolving) you have to get the XP systems. As long as it doesn't degenerate into a "Planet of the Week" encounter or "Random Starship Derelict Encounter", I personally think it'll retain the *Traveller* Flavor. Otherwise it goes with all the Cheap Treck stuff, where the goal isn't to have a Character growing and learning, but to have Bigger, Better Stats on a character sheet.

As far as I care, Traveller could be well played with almost any systems. As long as said system doesn't means having Godlike Generals that would survive a Nuke at Ground Zero because it has sooo much HitPoints to blow before even flinching with discomfort.

One could well play Traveller with WhiteWolf storyteller system, with StarHERO, with Chaosium's system, with almost anything, as long as it's not creating Uber Character.

IF one wants to play Uber General from Dimention 21, then D&D and many other "Heroic" system is fine. It just won't have the Traveller Feel, but will be more of the Star Wars feel...

I like T20... much better than D20. They're alike but not the Same. I like it because it isn't too hard to use (yet) and most of my players knows D20. Our goal is just to have fun, not harvest XP though...

 

[TKalbfus]

A goodly portion of the T20 book is devoted to combat and weapons systems, I wonder why? Many pages are devoted to these combat rules, and yet your saying combat should be avoided?

I just wonder how one goes about negotiating with a group of Vargr who are shooting at you? Player, "How are you doing Vargr, old buddy old pal? " Referee, " The first Vargr shoots at you, misses, the second one hits..." Later on ...
Referee: "The Vargr have you tied to a stake they are ready to cook you and eat you, what do you do?" Player, "I try to negotiate some more."

How exactly does one avoid combat if a bunch of NPCs are trying to kill your character? Is it that the Referee doesn't let such a situation arise, or are all NPCs in Traveller reasonable and subject to negotiation. If one desired to avoid combat, he would stay away from the wild place and pursue a boring job like the players do in real life. Now since I lead an Unexciting life, why would I want to role play one in a Traveller setting. I don't think all that combat equipment and rules was put in the T20 book so PCs can pursue romances with imaginary charaters, or to work 9 to 5 jobs on an imaginary space craft where nothing exciting happens. Excitement = danger. Danger = Combat, or at least making a skill check to resolve the situation.