Imperial Marine Platoon Organization

[jec10]

But my point is that TNE/Striker II has BOTH a Trepida (well several actually, page 98) AND a completely different "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" (page 93) in the vehicle descriptions. They are clearly different vehicles. And the Imperial Marine Cav TO&Es in the same publication (page 142) use IHGT, not Trepida. Now, Trepidas (as opposed to IHGTs) do feature in the TO&Es of TNE/Striker II - on pages 147 and 148 - so this is clearly not a case of IHGT being used as some sort of generic longhand for Trepida, as you suggest.

The only other canon source that actually has an Imperial Marine TO&E (JTAS 12) states on page 44: "Line marine units are equipped to tech level 15 standards". All the other canon Marine vehicles are TL15. Now its possible they might have a TL14 tank with these TL15 partners, but I'd say its quite unlikely, especially given that the TL15 IHGT exists. The Marine APC is called nothing more imaginative than the "Imperial Marine Grav APC", the support vehicle is the "Imperial Marine Support APC", the meson gun is the "Imperial Meson Artillery Vehicle". It is not out-of-character at all that the tank is called IHGT.

I have been through the other references...
MT 101 Vehicles (inside front cover) introduces the TL14 10dT Trepida as "the standard issue Imperial grav tank" from its introduction in "1109" (typically wacky DGP stuff here - why would the Imperium introduce a TL14 tank in 1109??). In the same publication (page 19) the DGP crew present a far more impressive TL15 grav APC, the 13dT Empress, which they specifically associate with the Imperial Marines. In some respects this design is similar to the TL15 Imperial Marine Grav APC of JTAS 12 and CT/Striker Book 3.
MT Rebellion Sourcebook page 86 on the Trepida is the same as 101V word-for-word (both were published in 1988).
TNE RCVG page 4 states: "While Imperial forces maintained a distinction between classes of tanks-heavy, medium (called “grav,” not “medium grav”), and light- the Regency maintains one class of tank, the medium tank, now called the battle tank. Like the former lmperial medium tanks, these are simply called “grav tanks.“ [I read this as suggesting that the Trepida grav tank is the 'medium' tank of the late 3rd Imperium, just as the Trepida-III aka Norris is the medium tank of the Regency]
page 6 has the TL15 Heavy Grav Tank indicating that "it served for many years as the standard TL15 tank for Imperial Marine, Army and Guard units", although it no longer serves with Regency Marines, with Marine HGTs passed to planetary forces and replaced by the lighter Norris.
page 8 on the Trepida (and Challenge 77) supports my thesis, "In the High Stellar band, the greater number of TL14 worlds militated for TL14 vehicles rather than the Imperial TL15 absolute upper limit, and it was this consideration that made the TLl4 Trepidas the standard high stellar tank. In addition to units of the three bands above, the lmperium maintained small numbers of “top tier” units equipped exclusively at TL15. Top tier units included Imperial Marine Regiments, Imperial Guard Regiments, and other elite spearhead forces. Sector governments typically maintained
at least one top tier unit; in the Spinward Marches this unit was the Duke of Regina‘s Own Huscarles (see pages 46-47 and also Striker 11). "
page 16 describing the Imperial Marine Grav APC (which is not/not the Astrin contrary to popular belief) says "As another terminological exception, the "Imperial Marine Grav APC" carries no tech level designator, unlike most other lmperial designed vehides. This is because Imperial Marine equipment was automatically known to be TLl5, so no designator was required."
It is definitely IMHO the RCEG page 112 that is the outlier calling the Trepida a "heavy" grav tank - which it clearly is not at only 10dT and relatively light armour! The "standard" line is explained above i.e. standard in the sense that only elite units were equipped to full TL15 standards.

 

[Sturn]

But my point is that TNE/Striker II has BOTH a Trepida (well several actually, page 98) AND a completely different "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" ....... so this is clearly not a case of IHGT being used as some sort of generic longhand for Trepida, as you suggest.

I completely agree. The point I was trying to make is that it seems the Trepida was intended to be the Imperial tank of the Army, and Marines, until these much later publications. If we could go back in time before Striker II and ask a typical Traveller fan what they thought the standard Marine tank was, they would answer Trepida. Non-canon Gurps researched all of this and still stayed with the Trepida as the Marine tank.

The only other canon source that actually has an Imperial Marine TO&E (JTAS 12) states on page 44: "Line marine units are equipped to tech level 15 standards".

Which, as I pointed out, is contadicted by TNE equipping them with TL weapons and armor.

...why would the Imperium introduce a TL14 tank in 1109??.

I agree, seems absurd and is a point in favor of your argument. There are also other Imperial equipment that is not TL 15, perhaps the designers did this so more worlds could produce the equipment?

In the same publication (page 19) the DGP crew present a far more impressive TL15 grav APC, the 13dT Empress, which they specifically associate with the Imperial Marines.

Thanks for the info, I don't have this source. I like having names, this might help me if I adopt the vehicles in TNE for Marines in MTU......

TNE RCVG page 4 states...<snip>.......I read this as suggesting that the Trepida grav tank is the 'medium' tank of the late 3rd Imperium,

.....and this could help also, referring to the Trepida as a medium tank instead of a heavy one. This would fix some of the contradictions for me, allowing to accept the TNE/Striker II vehicles.

......the lmperium maintained small numbers of “top tier” units equipped exclusively at TL15. Top tier units included Imperial Marine Regiments, Imperial Guard Regiments, and other elite spearhead forces.

But their weapons and armor are TL14??

-----

I don't think you got the point that I completely agree with you that the second TNE guide and Striker II both indicate the Trepida was not the Marine tank. It's obvious after reading those. The point that I recently argued was, that until those books were released, it doesn't seem to be what previous canon writers intended. Previously, at the start of TNE, and within MT period, it seemed the intention was that the Trepida was the standard tank of the Marines. Most Traveller players from that period would probably agree with me. Later, TNE changed this in their canon.

In MTU I will try to reconcile it all for myself so I can keep all of it canon in my mind. Thanks for the tip of making the Trepida the standard medium tank of Imperial Armed forces. This could solve some of the inconsistencies for me. Using the Empress could help also.

Note for some more help: Canon Marine naval craft? I only have some non-canon Gurps sources which have such craft built with the Trepida in mind (perhaps I do have one in a canon source, I have a very large library and sometimes forget what I have) . Are there canon sources for Marine landing or assault craft, and if so, were they fitted with bays for the "medium" tank or a "heavy" tank?

 

[jec10]

Just to muddy the waters further...QLI's "Against Gravity" for T20 and CT (page 34) has a TL15 10dT "Intrepid heavy grav tank" just entering service to replace the TL14 Zhakirov heavy grav tank in the Ley Sector universe. Deployment starts in 997.

In partial answer to your question, by far the most detailed treatment of Marine naval vessels is in GT: Ground Forces with the "Caen" class.
CT Supplement 9: Fighting Ships has on page 24 the Troop Transport, a 50dT small craft for planetary assaults used by the Imperial Navy. It can carry 10dT cargo as well as 50 troops. On page 30 is the "Ghalalk" class Armoured Cruiser that carries 200 Marines: "The two hundred marines carried aboard the Ghalalk constitute a reinforced company, trained in protected forces operations, and capable of orbital assaults if called for."
CT Adv 1 Kinunir has that ship carrying a 7.5m grav APC, 3 air/rafts and 15 jump capsules for the 35 marines (a platoon in three squads of ten)aboard. "This heavily armored personnel carrier is maintained in ready position here; it can be boarded directly from the lift shaft (10), or from the garbage desiccator area forward. This grav APC uses anti-gravity modules to lift its armored hull, and is capable of orbital flight. The APC can carry a full squad (10 troops), and mounts a rapid pulse fusion Y gun (Mercenary, pages 48 and 49) as well as a rack of tactical missiles." The Kinunir also has a pinnace described thus: "This vessel is primarily used to transport marines, or to transfer personnel in vacuum."
MTJ 3 has a Sydkai class cruiser that carries an undersized marine company of two platoons. A support vehicle platoon of 4 Astrin APCs carries the marines into combat along with equipment.
RCEG has the Fury-class assault lander on page 149 for the Reformation Coalition Marines.
BITS 101 Starships for GT includes designs such as the Polesta-class troopship "capable of carrying a regiment of marines", the Monfraki-class dropship "carrying a platoon of Imperial Marine drop troops", and the Traskon-class assault carrier carrying a company of marines.