Imperial Navy Uniforms
- Thread starter Andrew Boulton
- Start date
Traveller even ignores a lot of logical ramifications to advanced biological knowledge and techniques. Character generation doesn't reflect improved (i.e. better than 20th Century Western civilization's) lifespan (not even for Vilani); families don't seem to reflect greater control of reproduction (e.g. gender selection, in vitro gestation, cloning[*]); marriage and inheritance customs don't reflect absolute verifiable certainty of ancestry; etc.
[*] Seldrian Aledon being the sole exception that I can recall offhand.
Hans
Traveller; yeah, the game's all about playing in your favorite sci-fi milieus, so a Trek uniform makes some sort of roundabout sense.
Here's a sample uniform from the old "V" tv show; http://media.photobucket.com/image/...r/V%20-%20The%20Visitors/vthefinalbattle6.jpg
Minus the color and shoulder extensions, it seems like a decent decent design.
Other uniforms to note;
Space 1999; http://media.photobucket.com/image/space 1999 uniforms/style_a_work_in_progress/space1999cast.jpg
Ark 2 Sat Morning TV show; http://www.supernaturalcrime.com/Art/888/ARK_02.jpg
Original BSG; http://www.stories.the-ridges.net/images/bsg1.jpg
Old Sat Morning "Space Academy" TV show; http://www.supernaturalcrime.com/Art/888/SA_01.jpg
Just some samples. Personally, I always thought the original BSG jackets were cool, but wasn't much for the uniforms. A lot of the sci-fi shows seem to have a nautical "jumper" theme going for it, or a one piece jump suit. I think Star Wars bucked the trend by trying to copy the Nazis for the Imperial uniforms. The two piece uniforms in Ark 2, to me at least, seem like something a scout might wear. I'll also refer folks to the cover art for the old DGP "World Builders'" handbook.
Plenty of other examples.
Here's a sample uniform from the old "V" tv show; http://media.photobucket.com/image/...r/V%20-%20The%20Visitors/vthefinalbattle6.jpg
Minus the color and shoulder extensions, it seems like a decent decent design.
Other uniforms to note;
Space 1999; http://media.photobucket.com/image/space 1999 uniforms/style_a_work_in_progress/space1999cast.jpg
Ark 2 Sat Morning TV show; http://www.supernaturalcrime.com/Art/888/ARK_02.jpg
Original BSG; http://www.stories.the-ridges.net/images/bsg1.jpg
Old Sat Morning "Space Academy" TV show; http://www.supernaturalcrime.com/Art/888/SA_01.jpg
Just some samples. Personally, I always thought the original BSG jackets were cool, but wasn't much for the uniforms. A lot of the sci-fi shows seem to have a nautical "jumper" theme going for it, or a one piece jump suit. I think Star Wars bucked the trend by trying to copy the Nazis for the Imperial uniforms. The two piece uniforms in Ark 2, to me at least, seem like something a scout might wear. I'll also refer folks to the cover art for the old DGP "World Builders'" handbook.
Plenty of other examples.
Indeed. That's not the problem, really. As I wrote way upthread, the problem is that there isn't an offical canon version that the current license holder(s) can furnish their artists and say "That's how an Imperial Navy/Army/Scout uniform//Diplomatic/Court/Formal dress looks". Consequently, every artist makes up his own. Which reduces the utility of those illustrations considerably (to me, anyway). Sure, I can use such illustrations to show my players how the uniform of the Royal Inthan Guards Brigade looks, should I ever want to do so. But as for showing them how their most recent contact with an Imperial Navy officer looks, I'm plum out of luck if they ever met another one before.
It's not that there aren't enough military organisations in Charted Space to use up every illustration that's ever been made for Traveller and every other Science Fiction game, movie, and comic in the world. Rather, I feel that the Imperial organizations ought to have the same uniforms (service by service, that is) from Alpha Crucis to the Trojan Reach. Duchy Navies would tend to have similar uniforms to their Imperial counterparts (with subtle differences) unless they had a cultural reason to be deliberately different. And planetary organizations would run the gamut.
Hans
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Monty wore a hat in Africa with all his badges/medals pinned on it. And wore shorts. One could say that he was dressed for the desert climate. But no British troops dressed like that until he showed up and took over. Some say he was ecentric, thus the clothing style.
I'm sure some refs have left the uniforms of the characters up to the individual players. Some player could have die-rolled an old retired guy that still wore his out-dated uniform from planet Farmville that no one's ever heard of, or of its army.
I'm sure some refs have left the uniforms of the characters up to the individual players. Some player could have die-rolled an old retired guy that still wore his out-dated uniform from planet Farmville that no one's ever heard of, or of its army.
Rancke2; I always figured the basic uniforms might have lots of similarities, but that there would be just as many unique characteristics. between Dulinor's Imperial Navy and Margaret's. Say for example, they have the same basic pattern, but Margaret requires her naval personnel wear her family crest on their left breast or shoulders. While Duke Norris has a black chess piece knight/horshead on personnel in all services. Maybe Margaret has different colors for different services, but all with her family crest, while Norris uniforms vary in a more utilitarian vein, but all keep the chess-piece-knight motif.
I think a real wild card might be sector navies and other local forces.
I think a real wild card might be sector navies and other local forces.
Actually, Hans, the average pureblood Vilani, in MT V&V at least, gets a +4 on ALL aging saves. 150+ YO characters are pretty easily doable if one ignores the 7 term limit... Mixed Vilani get between +1 and +3. Long-lived Vilani strains get +5... Making those aging saves is pretty easy with a +4... and the experience limit becomes absolutely essential.
Solomani get, in essence, a +1 per S&A... the chart is about 1 point different. So it is, sort of, inadequately taken into account.
That's because by that time it's not a single service any more. Prior to the Rebellion (and for the early Rebellion years), the Imperial Navy would (I believe) use the same uniforms from one end of the Imperium to the other. With, of course, appropriate patches to show what fleet they belonged to.
Sector fleets (not navies) are simply the collected IN fleets stationed in the same sector. A.k.a. named fleets (as opposed to numbered fleets). Given that the sector duke is merely the first among equals of his fellow subsector dukes, I think the Imperium tries to limit sector administration as much as possible. So while there is a sector command that coordinates the efforts of the sector's fleets, I think it is discouraged from thinking of the sector fleet as a separate entity.
Hans
But it has never been integrated into the basic Traveller foundation, has it?
Oh, I can come up with variations myself. But when was the last time you met a 100 year old Imperial Navy admiral in the setting material? Or a 100 year old ex-admiral who left the service after his 7th term and is now busy with his second or third career?
It is, sort of, inadequately taken into account in one set of secondary publications for one version, but not carried over into any subsequent version.
Hans
Traveller
SOC-12
That's a statement bordering on "thou shalt not deviate from canon".
There's nothing in the Classic Traveller rules that says I can subject the military to psychological conditioning or breeding programs. There's nothing in the rules that says I can't either. Declaring that people are somehow not playing Traveller because they've incorporated something you find objectionable is to ignore Traveller's settingless roots.
A prime example of psychological conditioning is right in Dune: the Sardaukar. Trained on Salusa Secundus, the Imperial prison planet, the conditions are so harsh as to ensure only the strongest and most ruthless survive. In addition to the aforementioned ruthlessness, they have a near-suicidal disregard for personal safety, and use cruelty as a standard weapon. The perfect shock troops.
However, the level of conditioning I had in mind was more in line with Suk conditioning, also in Dune. Suk conditioning is an assurance of trust. The bearer of the diamond tattoo is supposedly incapable of disloyalty. However, as any reader of Dune knows, that conditioning can be broken. No conditioning is infallible, but the high rate of success makes it very useful.
While I could cite the obvious Dune example of the Bene Gesserit breeding program, I'm not because specialized breeding was not something I ever had in mind for the military.
The moment you roll any die, you've strayed from canon. Some people take the canon thing way too seriously, which removes the fun from discussing Traveller and limits it down to a select few priest members, each trying to preserve their version of the Traveller "universe" as canon in their own mind and everyone else is obviously wrong or an idiot.
That is the 30+ year-old stasis bubble which is Traveller.
That is the 30+ year-old stasis bubble which is Traveller.
Canon really only apply to the OTU setting. And to official publications.
Wil's point is, I think, that there's absolutely nothing whatsoever in the rules about it. If you want to introduce it in your own campaign, you're free to do so, of course, but you're going to have to make up new rules to do so. If there's nothing in the Traveller rules about it and nothing in the official Traveller setting about it, how is it Traveller in any way?
I can use Traveller rules to run a Babylon 5 game or a Judge Dredd game -- if I add some rules and ignore the jump drive and change the psionics rules -- but Mongoose to the contrary notwithstanding, that doesn't make Babylon 5 and Judge Dredd into Traveller.
Just my opinion, of course.
Well, GDW and its successors have ignored Traveller's settingless roots ever since The Kinunir, so why shouldn't the rest of us ignore them too?
Hans
I believe you're grieviously misinterpreting the views expressed by even the most ardent canonista here on these boards, much less the perfectly moderate members of the species that most of us are.
I've refuted this sort of misunderstanding often enough; I just can't summon the energy to do so once again. Maybe next time they crop up again.
Hans
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Kilts make lousy vacsuits...
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Canon mentions half a dozen geneered human variants.
Traveller
SOC-12
I've had dealings with canonhawks before, when I was playtesting the Castles & Crusades system. We had a batch of AD&D canonhawks who, when they saw that the game was not going to be AD&D reprinted, started in with ad hominem attacks on the system, the designers, and the artist.
I used to be an AD&D canonhawk myself, but unlike the aforementioned group, realized that it's a game to be enjoyed. I am a Star Trek canonhawk, but I don't participate in Star Trek forums much because I don't want to spoil everyone else's enjoyment of the shows.
To be blunt, I don't give a damn about the official Traveller canon. If I did, my Traveller universe code would have all ++ signs. I'd be assassinated
, Virus would have stomped 90% of the Imperium flatter than a pancake, and I would be happy about it.
I used to be an AD&D canonhawk myself, but unlike the aforementioned group, realized that it's a game to be enjoyed. I am a Star Trek canonhawk, but I don't participate in Star Trek forums much because I don't want to spoil everyone else's enjoyment of the shows.
To be blunt, I don't give a damn about the official Traveller canon. If I did, my Traveller universe code would have all ++ signs. I'd be assassinated
, Virus would have stomped 90% of the Imperium flatter than a pancake, and I would be happy about it.To be just as blunt, if you post about a canon question, people are going to treat your post as having to do with canon. Unless you clearly mark it as an IYTU comment or post on the IMTU board[*]. Canon is the default assumption. A lot of us who post here DO give a damn about it.To be blunt, I don't give a damn about the official Traveller canon. If I did, my Traveller universe code would have all ++ signs. I'd be assassinated
Hans
[*] Admittedly, I tend to overlook when something is posted on IMTU and assume it's about canon, but that's wrong and when I realize, I feel contrite.
Hi
I know my thoughts probably don't match most others, but I tend to prefer an Interstellar War and/or 2nd Imperium Setting in lieu of the 3rd Imperium or TNE setting.
Typically when I here the words "Imperium' or "Imperial" for uniforms, my thoughts kind of lean towards 1930/1940's (WWII era) UK military uniforms more than anything else, like shown below (at least for the more formal uniforms)
For colors, the olive uniform with green shirt and tie of the British Army uniform seems suitable to me for Imperial Army and COACC type units (and maybe even wet navy - which to me seems likely part of planetary armies in the Imperium).
For the Imperial Navy I'm thinking maybe a medium blue color jacket with a darker (maybe even black) pair of trousers with a blue stripe. For the Marines, I'd guess maybe a Red/Crimson/ or Maroon Jacket and black trousers, with a red/crimson/maroon stripe (with maybe a light gray shirt and dark gray tie). For Scouts, I'm not sure. Maybe a medium/light gray jacket would work.
For a typical shipboard work uniform though, I think I lean more towards something like a modern day TSA or UK police officer uniform, as shown below (though maybe without a tie).
Though I'd probably assume cargo type trousers with extra pockets, and long sleeve shirts that can be rolled up or down, as shown below.
Regards
PF
I know my thoughts probably don't match most others, but I tend to prefer an Interstellar War and/or 2nd Imperium Setting in lieu of the 3rd Imperium or TNE setting.
Typically when I here the words "Imperium' or "Imperial" for uniforms, my thoughts kind of lean towards 1930/1940's (WWII era) UK military uniforms more than anything else, like shown below (at least for the more formal uniforms)
For colors, the olive uniform with green shirt and tie of the British Army uniform seems suitable to me for Imperial Army and COACC type units (and maybe even wet navy - which to me seems likely part of planetary armies in the Imperium).
For the Imperial Navy I'm thinking maybe a medium blue color jacket with a darker (maybe even black) pair of trousers with a blue stripe. For the Marines, I'd guess maybe a Red/Crimson/ or Maroon Jacket and black trousers, with a red/crimson/maroon stripe (with maybe a light gray shirt and dark gray tie). For Scouts, I'm not sure. Maybe a medium/light gray jacket would work.
For a typical shipboard work uniform though, I think I lean more towards something like a modern day TSA or UK police officer uniform, as shown below (though maybe without a tie).
Though I'd probably assume cargo type trousers with extra pockets, and long sleeve shirts that can be rolled up or down, as shown below.
Regards
PF
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Traveller
SOC-12
Sad to say, but Shonner is dead on the mark in saying this:
I only recently returned here after a seven-year absence, and I had forgotten all about the well-earned reputation of this forum. Traveller canonhawks are no better than the AD&D canonhawks I divorced myself from. Always eager to spout off about the one true way to play. God help you if you exercise even the least bit of creativity and change the universe, or *gasp*, make your own.
I didn't think the AD&D canonhawks played the game but simply talked about it endlessly.
For twenty-plus years I never worried about having to have any supplements or adventures. I simply utilized that thing called creativity. Unfortunately, creativity is an endangered trait today. Role playing games by default now need to have fully fleshed out settings to go along with them or else the uncreative types won't bother playing. They need to know how x is done to y and why. Canonhawks, no matter how reasonable a person they may be, by their very presence and attitude encourage this!
In the end, the Third Imperium setting suffers from the same problem Star Trek suffers from: so much history that you have to understand all of it to be able to use it. The Star Trek franchise needed to be rebooted in order to be accessible to everyone, fan or otherwise. They succeeded and as a result you have average people on the street talking about Star Trek again.
Unfortunately, discarding all the history after 1107-1108 isn't going to fly when it comes to the Third Imperium. In the case of the Third Imperium the only solution to make it accessible to everyone is to describe it in a paragraph and encourage them to make the Imperium their own. Because unlike Star Trek, where you have visuals, all that exists for the Third Imperium is imagination and creativity.
"The Imperium is a group of worlds governed by a feudalistic society. Nobles answer to higher ranking nobles in chains that leads up to the Emperor himself. Communication is limited to the speed of travel, and therefore activities on the borders of the Imperium sometimes are concluded before the Emperor is aware they started. Thus the nobles and military commanders are given a great deal of leeway to act in the best interests of the Imperium."
Now, would that be enough information for any of us to create an Imperium of our own? After all, in the grand scheme of things, canon isn't important. Telling stories is important.
P.S. I wasn't aware that opinion polls were canon fodder and I made it clear my initial post was in my Traveller universe, but I guess at this point I need to take a very close look at which forums I can frequent without welcoming the wrath of the divine.
