IMTU. A new (old) start

[Whipsnade]

That's a fun one. (big snip of great stuff)

That is inspired. Absolutely inspired.

By reaching back into the proto-Traveller era, you've neatly flipped the problem on it's head. Now it's the locals psionicists need to worry about. Now if you can get off world, you're safe.

Your players are going to have so much fun...

 

[Cryton]

That is inspired. Absolutely inspired.

By reaching back into the proto-Traveller era, you've neatly flipped the problem on it's head. Now it's the locals psionicists need to worry about. Now if you can get off world, you're safe.

Your players are going to have so much fun...

Kinda inspired not only by the old '77 rules, but also by a picture I once saw (not sure where though) of a skeleton hanging outside a starport with a sign around its neck that said something along the lines of "Psionics not welcome".

 

[Timerover51]

You should start an IMTU thread yourself on this, at very least, I have found it makes an excellent sounding board for ideas.

Already done, see A Heretical Traveller Universe thread. I just have been a bit busy with a son's wedding (interesting story there on differing marriage customs), so have not been working on it as much as I could. I do have the subsector names done, and about half the planet names for the first sub-sector. The key planets in the rest of the sub-sectors are laid out, just have to fill in the rest.

Hehe, yeah, I see this sort of thing happening on worlds with High Pop (Cant afford good pay), and Low Law (What ya gonna do, chum?) worlds.

I personally know of five cases happening on this World with respect to things like the Tri-Dee example. You would be very surprised what a $100 US bill will get you in some areas. Note, I am not referring to the various physical vices around the World.

 

[Timerover51]

Kinda inspired not only by the old '77 rules, but also by a picture I once saw (not sure where though) of a skeleton hanging outside a starport with a sign around its neck that said something along the lines of "Psionics not welcome".

Sort of like the cage that the English put at the mouth of the Thames with the most current hanged pirate on display, only seen at low tide however.

The thing about psionics is that few players think about what happens if psionics is used against them. See the thread that I started a while back.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=490248#post490248

Say, a teleport makes a very small hole in your breathing mask on a planet with an insidious atmosphere, or disables the firing circuit on your FGMP-15. Or perhaps places a packet of illegal drugs in your pocket or briefcase. Or puts an air bubble in your carotid artery.

 

[mike wightman]

Kinda inspired not only by the old '77 rules, but also by a picture I once saw (not sure where though) of a skeleton hanging outside a starport with a sign around its neck that said something along the lines of "Psionics not welcome".

You mean stuff like:

Psionic individuals detected by the public or the authorities are subject to a
variety of responses, based on a two-dice throw: 12+ for lobotomy, 10+for lynching,
8+ for tarring and feathering, 6+ for imprisonment, and 4+ for deportation.

 

[Cryton]

So, what I've gotten from all this so far.

1. The Emperor rules by proclamation, but usually doesn't.

2. The Moot has only 2 functions. To confirm a new Emperor, and to dissolve the Imperium.

3. Aside from sector dukes, The Imperial nobility really has little power, and little responsibility other than to see that member worlds enforce those few Imperial laws, and to collect taxes. And sector Dukes have the added annoyance of running the sectors Imperial Navy as well.

~Rich

After giving things quite a bit of thought, statement three is essentially true and false at the same time.

The Imperial Noble is also the being a Worlds government turns to when they have issues with another Worlds government. Said Noble would be the one to take the issue to that other worlds Imperial Noble for discussion and mediation. Should the two Nobles working with the two governments not be able to resolve the issues, they have only two other roads to consider. Take the issue to the Sector Duke, or to the Emperor. Doing either of those means the issue is in effect, effecting the stability of the Imperium, and EXTREME MEASURES are likely to to be used for resolution.

What this implies (Especially after reading Agent) is that an Imperial Noble can, when given just cause, with a word, have a world interdicted, have governments removed and replaced, cultures modified, or even have a worlds entire eco-system, inhabitants and all, scrubbed down to the bedrock, literally whatever it takes to resolve the issue. All in the name of Imperial Stability. So can an Imperial Warrant holder.

Just food for thought.

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperial government begins at the subsector level.

Subsector dukes are effectively the emperor in their subsector.

Sector dukes are a first among equals - I am reminded of he scene in The Godfather when the heads of the five families meet up - I could imagine a sector conclave being much like that, with the sector duke established from within that group.

 

[Whipsnade]

The Imperial government begins at the subsector level

That's generally agreed upon for the OTU/3I and it's how it generally works IMTU(1), but what about Cryton's proto-Traveller?

What does CT:77 say about it's Imperium and the government thereof?


1 - MTU always had counts, even before the GT retcon. It did so because I couldn't see every world in a given subsector "rating" a marquis. Accordingly, I collected those "marquis-less' worlds into counties which are overseen, naturally, by a count or viscount. Depending on their "geography", most subsectors have two or more counties and, because these worlds generally have smaller populations and lower tech levels, they need more Imperial assistance with governing their systems.

 

[Cryton]

IMTU Imperial Government. What has always amazed me, is that people have always assumed that a HUGE bureaucracy is required to make the Imperium run.

I do not think it does. I think it only requires three branches. The Nobles, The Military (Includes both the Navy, Marines and IISS), and Starport Authority.

We have beaten to death the Noble branch, but for the sake of completeness, I will cover it here, as it works IMTU.

The Emperor rules uber alles. All nobles are beholden and answer to the Emperor only, except for a few Baronets and Knights who are beholden to Arch-Dukes. They don't usually do a whole lot, but can wield considerable power in certain circumstances. Sector Dukes are the Commander-in-Chiefs of the Sector Navies. Sub-sector Dukes are the Commander-in-chiefs of the Sub-Sector Navies. All other Nobles can, and usually do, keep small standing armies commonly called Housecarls (the "Imperial" Army IMTU). They have/rule Land grants on the worlds that they represent and contain the Imperial Starport, any Imperial Bases and or assets that are actually found on the world or in system that they represent. These lands, bases and grants are extra-territorial, and sovereign Imperial properties. They have minimal duties: vote in the Moot as needed, run their land grants, collect taxes, see that their worlds enforce Imperial Law and represent their worlds in dealings with other worlds and the Emperor. Dukes have the additional head-ache of running the Imperial Navies. The orders of Knighthood, and the Imperial "Honor-Nobles" of soc C+, have an additional duty, as they do not normally have fiefs. Instead are encouraged to become Travellers, and doubly-encouraged to report any lapses in honor, duty or position by the Nobles holding land-grants to the Emperor.

The Military has the duties of protecting the Imperium from threats, both foreign and domestic. They answer to the sub-sector Dukes (for Sub-sector Navies), the Sector Duke (for Sector Navies) and the Emperor (for the IISS and the Navies in total). The Marines are a sub-division of the Navy. The Navy also runs the Depots and all the Naval Bases, the IISS all the Scout bases and Way-Stations. Both the IN and the IISS operate research stations as needed.
But what about all the courts, ministries and bureaucracies you ask? Already in place. They are the same courts and bureaucracies that are used to run the Imperial Navy and the IISS. They are already in place, and function quite nicely, and duplicating them for the sake of duplication is both a waste of resources and unnecessary.

Finally there is the Starport Authority. The Starport Authority is what runs the Starports of the Imperium. It is tasked with maintaining the Imperial Starport on a world (which may or may not be the only Starport on a planet, but it will be the only one listed on the Imperial charts), and acting more-often than not, as an intermediary between locals and travellers and the local Noble. IMTU The SA maintains starports at a minimum TL of 12 (or whatever the TL of the local world is, if higher) and enforces a LL of 1 (LBB '77 version of 1) and operate any Imperial Shipyards that may be present. Individual starports work with, and answer to the local Noble, acting as the collection point for Imperial Taxes, and housing the Nobles offices of Authority. As such Starport Security is usually, but not always drawn from the local Nobles Housecarls. SA does handle some customs, but as SA-run Starports are extra-territorial and officially Imperial territory, these duties are minimal. When you leave the starport/Imperial reservation, you will have to go through whatever customs inspections the local governments wish to have enforced. This makes Imperial Starports some-what "safe-havens" for trade and commerce, as well as safe stop-over places for Travellers, and the place where you report Imperial Crimes, such as piracy, to the Nobility.

So there you have it. An overview of what "is" the Imperial Government IMTU.

 

[Timerover51]

IMTU Imperial Government. What has always amazed me, is that people have always assumed that a HUGE bureaucracy is required to make the Imperium run.

Finally there is the Starport Authority. The Starport Authority is what runs the Starports of the Imperium. It is tasked with maintaining the Imperial Starport on a world (which may or may not be the only Starport on a planet, but it will be the only one listed on the Imperial charts), and acting more-often than not, as an intermediary between locals and travellers and the local Noble. IMTU The SA maintains starports at a minimum TL of 12 (or whatever the TL of the local world is, if higher) and enforces a LL of 1 (LBB '77 version of 1) and operate any Imperial Shipyards that may be present. Individual starports work with, and answer to the local Noble, acting as the collection point for Imperial Taxes, and housing the Nobles offices of Authority. As such Starport Security is usually, but not always drawn from the local Nobles Housecarls. SA does handle some customs, but as SA-run Starports are extra-territorial and officially Imperial territory, these duties are minimal. When you leave the starport/Imperial reservation, you will have to go through whatever customs inspections the local governments wish to have enforced. This makes Imperial Starports some-what "safe-havens" for trade and commerce, as well as safe stop-over places for Travellers, and the place where you report Imperial Crimes, such as piracy, to the Nobility.

So there you have it. An overview of what "is" the Imperial Government IMTU.

The Starport Authority is your huge bureaucracy, while the Military is going to have a very large chunk as well. Think FAA and multiply by several orders of magnitude, as you will have sector and sub-sector offices, Inspector General office, training and recruiting offices, supply services, and maintenance services for the starports. A Class A starport, with both a High Port and a Ground Port, on a High Population world may have 10,000 to 20,000 workers, and if a large building yard, potentially a 100,000 or more.

As for the military, consider the size of the Department of Defense in the US. The Scout Service is going to have a lot of people simply to keep track of all of those retired Scouts with their Scout ships. Then again you have the sector and sub-sector offices and the Scout Bases, along with procurement, training, recruiting, maintenance, transport, and the list goes on.

Even your Imperium is going to have a huge bureaucracy.

 

[kilemall]

That is inspired. Absolutely inspired.

By reaching back into the proto-Traveller era, you've neatly flipped the problem on it's head. Now it's the locals psionicists need to worry about. Now if you can get off world, you're safe.

Your players are going to have so much fun...

BURN THE WITCH!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYeqDD96gLg

 

[kilemall]

I really like the noble make a decision system very appealing. Not for my current ATU but could make action in the good ol Imperium more appealing.

Hmmmm, come to think of it there is a sci fi precedent for how you could have essentially a 'policy jury' sort of system and keep individual nobles from making bad decisions.

The Lords of the Instrumentality, from Cordwainer Smith's universe.


http://oldschoolheretic.blogspot.com/2011/04/instrumentality-of-mankind.html

Here is the relevant quote- sounds like a good system for Traveller Nobles to make decisions by.

"The Instrumentality was a self-perpetuating body of men with enormous powers and a strict code. Each was a plenum of the low, the middle, and the high justice. Each could do anything he found necessary or proper to maintain the Instrumentality and keep the peace between the worlds. But if he made a mistake or committed a wrong—ah, then, it was suddenly different.


Any Lord could put another Lord to death in an emergency, but he was assured of death and disgrace himself if he assumed this responsibility. The only difference between ratification and repudiation came in the fact that Lords who killed in an emergency and were proved wrong were marked down on a very shameful list, while those who killed other Lords rightly (as later examination might prove) were listed on a very honorable list, but still killed. With three Lords, the situation was different.




Three Lords made an emergency court; if they acted together, acted in good faith, and reported to the computers of the Instrumentality, they were exempt from punishment, though not from blame or even reduction to civilian status.




Seven Lords, or all the Lords on a given planet at a given moment, were beyond any criticism except that of a dignified reversal of their actions should a later ruling prove them wrong.

"This was all the business of the Instrumentality. The Instrumentality had the perpetual slogan 'Watch, but do not govern; stop war, but do not wage it; protect, but do not control; and first, survive!'"

 

[Cryton]

The Starport Authority is your huge bureaucracy, while the Military is going to have a very large chunk as well. Think FAA and multiply by several orders of magnitude, as you will have sector and sub-sector offices, Inspector General office, training and recruiting offices, supply services, and maintenance services for the starports. A Class A starport, with both a High Port and a Ground Port, on a High Population world may have 10,000 to 20,000 workers, and if a large building yard, potentially a 100,000 or more.

Not quite. Your shipyard numbers are a great reflection of those needed for a standard Large-Ship, High-Trade Traffic TU. The Proto-Traveller model is a Small-Ship, Low-Trade Traffic Model. A Class Starports in a Proto-Traveller universe do not necessarily have High-Ports. In fact, High-Ports are not a thing in the '77 version Book 3, and the traffic through a Starport is no where near the levels suggested by any later TU assumptions, so even an A Class starport need not be the huge thing it is in later publications. A Class A is no larger than, say, a US Navy shipyard attached to San Diego's Lindberg Field.

As for the military, consider the size of the Department of Defense in the US. The Scout Service is going to have a lot of people simply to keep track of all of those retired Scouts with their Scout ships. Then again you have the sector and sub-sector offices and the Scout Bases, along with procurement, training, recruiting, maintenance, transport, and the list goes on.

Even your Imperium is going to have a huge bureaucracy.

I never said it wasn't. I simply meant that it will not be the monstrosity it is in the later editions of Traveller, as all the unnecessary parallel duplication does not exist. There is no Ministry of Colonization for example, as the Scouts have those records that are needed for such things, and it is the Emperor who says when and where to expand the Imperium, and if and when a world will be opened for colonization. Likewise, the Ministry of Justice is unneeded, as The Navy handles those issues that require real force, and IMTU, nobles hauled in for High Crimes are dragged before the Emperor himself. In addition, as a planets Governments jurisdiction ends at 100D, if they want to pursue a criminal who hasn't violated Imperial Law off-world, they must resort to diplomacy (Talk to your local Noble to facilitate an extradition), hire a Bounty Hunter, or file a Mercenary Ticket. It's THAT sort of universe.

 

[aramis]

The detached duty scouts don't really need a lot of oversight - they're essentially "Retired" - if they want to work, they show up on a scout base and get put to whatever they CAN do - moping, if need be. 3 hours a day, 3 meals a day, replacing commander's call duties.

I agree that the military will be bureaucratic, but the US is a poor exemplar.... officer heavy, staff heavy. Many militaries shave 1-2 people per active troop by leaving company/Battalion/Regimental clerks to do most of the administration without higher commands. (Hell, in the USCW era, the support train, counting embedded civilians, was under 10 people per 108 man company. During the war, the supply service burgeoned to a (then) whopping 2:1 tail to dog ratio.)

Most current "peacetime" militaries run 8-12 support per combatant - but that can (and perhaps should, but that's pushing political) be trimmed down. A good portion of that is that the individual deployment unit is still, nominally, the company. (In practice, in the US army, it's the battalion, but the company or squadron is still, by regulation, detachable for autonomous service. - in the 1850's, on paper, it was the regiment, but companies/squadrons/batteries could be cross attached.)

 

[Cryton]

Just as a refresher on Small-Ship universe for those who have never played in one.

In Book 2 '77, drive letter determines the maximum size and jump of a ship. Drive letter has a ceiling determined by TL. This has some MASSIVE ramifications when applied to a TU.

At the discovery of jump Drive:
TL 9 has a maximum drive code of 'D' which gives a performance of 4 in a 200 dTon ship, and has a maximum hull size of 600dTons, in which it produces a performance of 1.

Imperial Average
TL 12 has a maximum drive code of 'N', which produces a performance of 6 in a 400 dTon hull, and Hull size maximum is now 2000 dTons, in which the 'N' Drives have a performance of 1.

Imperial Maximum
TL 15 can make the 'Z'drive, which gives a 5000 dTon hull a performance of 2.

5000 dTons is the MAXIMUM hull size for a starship or anything with other than station keeping drives according to the charts, and from what I have read, Physics as well (Crumple and shear effects happen when you try to accelerate an object that's larger)

These assumptions mean, that if I use the Traveller Map and Polities IMTU, it answers all the questions of "How did 'X' cross this or that void at only TL 'X'?" as even the lowly 'A' drive (the one that comes first, and can be assumed with little stretch of the imagination to be the 'starter' drive of anyone inventing Jump Drives), has a maximum performance in a 200 dTon hull of 1, and a performance of 2 in a 100 dTon hull.

Add in the factor that in the '77 rules, Power Plant Performance only has to match the Maneuver Drive performance, and NOT the higher of Jump or Maneuver Drives as in later editions, it solves the X-Boat design problems as well.

How this all applies in MTU, is that a class "A" starport will usually have production lines for no more than about 5000 dTons every 36 months, if that, and shipyards are considerably smaller than in a Large-Ship Universe, especially when you factor in TL12 automatons.

 

[aramis]

77 J4-TL9 boat Try 1	Try 2 - 2 weeks PPF	The OTU version
20 Bridge 15 JD B = 4 01 MA A=2 04 PP A= 2 40 JFuel 20 PFuel	20 Bridge 15 JD B = 4 01 MA A=2 04 PP A= 2 40 JFuel 10 PFuel 02 Model/2 04 1x Stateroom 04 Cargo[td]20 Bridge 15 JD B = 4 40 JFuel 01 Model/1bis 08 2x Stateroom 11 Cargo
No room for staterooms	No endurance...	no maneuver

[/td]

 

[Timerover51]

Cryton, I think part of the problem between your view and mine is the definition of "small ship". When I look at the 5,000 dTon limitation for ships, I see 25,000 Gross Register Tons of ship space or 67,500 to 70,000 Displacement tons of ship mass, and mentally think, that is not a "small ship". The following are some of the ships I use as examples.

WW2 Liberty Ship: 7,100 GRT, equal to 1420 Traveller dTons
WW2 T2SE Tanker: 10,200 GRT with a capacity of 141,000 barrels of petroleum products, equal to 2040 Traveller dTons
WW2 FS Freighter (Army cargo ship used mainly for inter-island duties): 560 GRT, a mere 112 Traveller dTons
Great Eastern (Built in 1854-58): about 18,915 GRT, or 3783 Traveller dTons
Edmund Fitzgerald (Great Lakes Bulk Carrier): 13,632 GRT, equal to 2726 Traveller dTons
RMS Lusitania (sunk in 1915): 31,550 GRT, or 6310 Traveller dTons, a bit larger than the 5,000 dTon limit
MV Paul R. Tregurtha (currently the largest ship operating on the Great Lakes); 36,360 GRT, or equal to 7272 Traveller dTons, about 50% larger than the 5,000 dTon Limit. The Tregurtha is over 1,000 feet long with a beam of 105 feet. Seen up close, the ship is staggering.

The new RCCL Harmony of the Seas cruise ship is 226,963 GRT, or 45, 393 Traveller dTons, so much larger than a "small ship" universe, but not that big in a "large ship universe" of one-half million dTon dreadnoughts.

If I think in terms of displacement tons, then the limit of between 67,500 and 70,000 displacement tons includes the RMS Lusitania, the RMS Titanic, the Iowa-class battleships, Midway-class aircraft carriers, and just misses the Paul R. Tregurtha, if fully loaded with 68,000 tons of taconite pellets.

My "small ship" universe does not really have small ships. For an example of what a Liberty ship could carry, see the following site.

http://www.usmm.org/capacity.html

As for building yards, I would rate a yard capable of only 5,000 dTons in 36 months as a very small one. Assuming misjumps occur and accidents happen, I would assume a loss rate of about 2% per year of commercial ships in operation. The 1977 rules have a misjump on a role of 12+ every time a ship jumps, or a 2.777% chance, so the more times a ship jumps in a year, the greater the chance for a misjump. Based on that, the 2% a year loss rate is quite conservative. You also have to allow for yards doing routine maintenance or required overhauls.

It should be noted that I am looking at the building rules from the stand point of nautical architecture.

As for the military overhead, the logistic overhead required by an Imperium-wide force will make for a very large number of support personnel.

 

[Cryton]

Timerover, my definition of "Small-ship" is 5000 dTon maximum of pre-High Guard rules, as compared to the "Large-Ship" definition of 1 000 000 dTon maximum of High Guard and later rules editions.

I do agree, 5000 dTons is a large ship, but actually tiny compared to the "small-Moon" that is the Tigress Class Dreadnought of MT (500 000 dTons.)

 

[mike wightman]

Just as a refresher on Small-Ship universe for those who have never played in one.

In Book 2 '77, drive letter determines the maximum size and jump of a ship. Drive letter has a ceiling determined by TL. This has some MASSIVE ramifications when applied to a TU.

At the discovery of jump Drive:
TL 9 has a maximum drive code of 'D' which gives a performance of 4 in a 200 dTon ship, and has a maximum hull size of 600dTons, in which it produces a performance of 1.

In the 77 edition the TL table at TL 9 says 'starships' while at TL the 'drives H or less' entry appears.
TL 9 being capped at D is from the 81 revision.

 

[creativehum]

Timerover, my definition of "Small-ship" is 5000 dTon maximum of pre-High Guard rules, as compared to the "Large-Ship" definition of 1 000 000 dTon maximum of High Guard and later rules editions.

I do agree, 5000 dTons is a large ship, but actually tiny compared to the "small-Moon" that is the Tigress Class Dreadnought of MT (500 000 dTons.)

timevoer,

I think everyone here uses term "small ship" only relative to the "large ships" of the post-Highguard years.

No one here is ever arguing these ships are actually small. It may be imprecise, but in contrast to the larger ships of Highguard, it's accurate.

I do, by the way, really appreciate, all the comparisons you post. i find them very helpful.